385 replies to this topic

[Tiantara]

- I remember time when in game was no Clan mech at all. There was only IS mech and XL engine was part of old balance in conflict where was Speed\Agility vs Armor\Survivability. All IS XL was presented as "Pseudo-Clan" mech, and someone just tide it to Lore. And that was good for that old nice time when Sniper skill make difference between fast target and slow machine of destruction with armor.
Same was in war between Inner Sphere Houses and that works good. I think everyone who play in game past 4 year remember when IS fight against IS and Clan do battle between Clans. Mostly.

When true clan mech appears, XL IS mech become only way to compete in speed\agile with Clan. But mech was too easy to destroy. We got structure buffs. We got some weapon boost. We got even more armor and some geometry changes to prevent easy kill and avoid one-shot-death. That works, but still in IS vs IS and a little with IS vs Clan. Yeap, pilots who can utilize XL-friendly IS mech - just tough guys and really skilled player. I have experience of using such build and can say - that really hard!

And now we got many new... Clan mech. And new players who don't want play hardcore from the start and they fill Clan side by choosing XL firendly mech because they live longer. Yeap, you still easy kill Clan by rip both side torso. But in IS you need lost only one and you dead. And there coming story of strict Clan vs IS conflict we have now.
No IS vs IS Faction Play anymore. Many suddenly realize that Clan "OP" and we have disbalance and need something to do.
What? balance weapon again? Make more heat restrictions? Add more armor\structures quirks? Or maybe just get rid of old mechanic at all?

What I can see...
IS XL make mech more competitive vs Clan. Even those who have less weapon and marked as useless in all meta and even non-meta list. We have no big affect in QP because now in QP I see nearly 70% Clan mech anyway. And PUG anyway have bad\monstrous build with new type of XL or without it. That also make more yummy some Hero IS mech or Champions.
Let them have bigger loss of speed than Clan and that will be awesome. Let people try only that change on PTS for 1 week and you'll see how balance between IS and Clan become in 45% vs 55%. And maybe some IS mech don't need any armor buffs anymore. Except those heavy IS heavy mech which max firepower cant be bigger than 35dmg physically.

STD engine still be viable because of preserving same speed after one side torso destroy. Also mech still alive when both side torso killed. We all know good "zombie mode" mech which still was and will be good in battle. many mech type just can't handle XL because of really tight body. And really wide DHS. So they still run STD after change or get rid of some weapons instead what make new metas and new builds on forgotten mech types. I have on 6 Clan mech STD engine only because I need room for TC and Ammo. And don't want loose speed. I think many pilots do the same.

So.
Clan XL - stay as is.
IS XL - get rid of death from loosing side torso and add big speed loss up to 40% of nominal (but not less than lowest speed after one leg ripped off). Even if IS mech just stops after loose ST it better than instant death.
IS \ Clan STD - make as it is now for Zombie users and some mech who take fire for team (sacrifice assaults, brawlers, and some more)

After that make 1-2 week test. By result of it - change some quirk-buffs to lover numbers if needed.

I say once again. IS XL was good when we have IS vs IS battle, now it make problem in new version of Faction Play.
That change don't affect QP, but can make higher number of players. Especially those who can buy IS Hero mech and earn C-bill for IS XL.
That decision make balance in new Faction Play and pull people back to faction not by choosing "easy play and survivability" but by mech type, house or faction itself.
I really take my words back if test show something different, but I think we get better balance than tweaking all weapon, heat and many more.

[Lykaon]

Jay Leon Hart, on 21 December 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

How about a future proof solution that takes care of the "Omnis have no engine choice" problem?

Battlemech XLs = death on loss of ST
OmniMech XLs = death on loss of both STs

Current Clan Omnis aren't affected, future IS Omnis aren't shafted and it even brings (some) Clan top performers down a level of power.

Except if we keep fixed equipment on I.S. omnimechs there will be several that would simply be doorstops saddled with fixed engines (standards) fixed single heatsinks and fixed 14 crit ferro armor instead of spending that 14 crit slots on the superior weight savings of Endo Steel.
Fixed jumpjets are a much bigger deal on an I.S. omnimech because they don't get access to lighter weapons to pack a payload worth bringing yet they can "jump" with the over nerfed PGI jets they must allot tonnage and crit space to.

The Strider comes to mind as one of these "problem" I.S. omnimechs.

The Clans still come out on top because

A they have more omnimechs availabe to choose from
B they keep the XL engine edge on arguably their best mechs while I.S. gets this "benefit" on arguably their worst mechs.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Lykaon, on 21 December 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

*snip*

To be clear, I'm still in favour of removing the ST loss = death penalty from ISXLs and buffing structure on STDs (and LFEs) to make them a viable choice. Just figured I would share another alternative suggestion I haven't seen come up before (though I imagine it has in the last 3-4 years).

[Kael Posavatz]

I think a better area of focus would be standard engines vs XLs.

Sooner or later IS Omnis will hit the field with locked IS XLs (FS9-O, or really anything short of the Hauptmann) or Clan Omnis with standard engines (Kingfisher, stooping hawk, battle cobra). At which point both will be cast aside. The former because side-torso-kills, the latter because it can't carry sufficient firepower to compete with IS skill-buffs (soon to replace quirks).

I mean, it's either this issue is addressed, or we never see any of these mechs, and, frankly, I think addressing it would also balance--or at least go a good way towards addressing--the issue of IS v Clan XL engines.

[Omniseed]

mogs01gt, on 14 December 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

Where is the poll?

There shouldnt be a difference at all between the XL engines. That is what having a balanced game means..

No, it doesn't mean that at all.

You can have balance without completely homogeneous equipment, 'balanced' pretty clearly doesn't mandate identical details, just an equitable performance 'on balance'.

IS 'mechs have tons of (deserved, I think) quirks that make them unique and viable in ways that an unquirked mech wouldn't be. One of the reasons for those advantages is that their tech is more crude and flawed, and as a result the 'balance' is to give the IS 'mechs significantly stronger quirks that allow them to play their specialized role better than a technically superior but general-purpose Clan 'mech could.

The game could 'balance' the engines by making them identical, but the resulting imbalance would require a quirk nerf to IS 'mechs that would turn one-trick ponies into bay-wasting garbage and would leave the better IS 'mechs basically the same but tougher.

I don't think IS XL engines need to be as vulnerable as they are to meet the triple goals of balance, fun, and 'mech diversity.

I don't think those goals could be met if Clan 'mechs and faction play rules are the only focus for tweaks. The IS XL vulnerability is the single largest discrepancy between the two factions. The Clan advantages in weapon weight are already well balanced by their high heat generation, inferior weapon firing patterns, and the fact that the Clan omnimech tech actually severely restricts build diversity by marrying most Clan chassis to a single engine-structure-armor configuration. The ability to dramatically modify the available critical space, tonnage, and speed of a 'mech is more broadly powerful than the ability to mix-and-match hardpoints like an omnimech.

I think a good route to balance XLs would be to make the loss of a ST on an IS XL mech result in 30-40% greater speed loss and 25-30% more heat generation than a Clan mech would suffer. The IS XL is a clumsy, bulky, almost primitive knockoff of the Star League and Clan XL engines, and it absolutely should cause more pain to lose a ST than a Clan XL mech.

Instant death is too much pain though, and trying to balance the entire game around the XL issue without ever fixing the XL issue is not going to work. Drop decks for faction play are so cocked up right now, any decent IS group is having a cake party with their 25-ton lead, while large Clan groups will still roll right over a PUG team.

People always want to say the only way to balance is to balance around top tier competitive play, which I think is ridiculous. Top tier players ultimately have to build and play hyperfocused 'mechs that have probably been carefully considered as a part of the team they'll drop with.

Most players don't spend hours coordinating their build and play strategies with a cohesive group of people who move and shoot as a group, always. I think spending too much time balancing around the obsessives has a tendency to rain effluvium all over the fun of the game.

See Clan 240-ton drop decks and 50-ton (for now) scouting drop decks.

What happens when teams of four Novas continue to grease the christ out of whatever sucker stumbles into their line of fire? It's going to happen, and with the balancing techniques PGI has been using so far it seems like they would be open to ganking the Clan scouting weight even further.

It's another area where the best way to balance would have been to modify the way the XL engine functions so that the IS doesn't need to get these huge advantages and Clan mechs/decks don't need to be continuously nerfed until they aren't fun anymore.

Fixing the XL without totally abandoning the technical superiority of Clan engines would fix almost every faction-based balance issue in the game.

Edited by Omniseed, 22 December 2016 - 02:06 PM.

[Omniseed]

Lykaon, on 18 December 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

Have you bothered to actually see what the percentages are for your proposed bonuses in actual numbers?

10% and 25% structure bonuses for side torso by top weight values in mech classes.

Light mechs 35 tons base side torso structure 16 points 17.6 with 10% bonus 20 points with 25% bonus

Medium mechs 55 tons base side torso structure 26 points 28.6 with 10% bonus 32.5 with 25% bonus

Heavy mechs 75 tons base side torso structure 32 points 35.2 with 10% bonus 40 with 25% bonus

Assault mechs 100 tons base side torso structure 42 points 46.2 with 10% bonus 52.5 with 25% bonus

These bonuses are not enough to even briefly contemplate giving up a half engine weight payload bonus for clan pilots. At best they are a consolation prize for the few I.S. mechs that use side torso AC20s. Overall not meaningful nor worth it.

Light fusion engines in the lore are available in 3062. If PGI doesn't do a considerable time jump I doubt I will be waiting for the LFE to eventually appear. Basing any I.S. vs Clan XL engine debate on the existance of a future tech that DOES NOT EXIST in MWo is a waste of time.

Also since when is half weight engine balanced with a two thirds weight engine?

And if we are doing a time jump to 3060's isn't it lore appropriate for clantech to be available to the Inner Sphere houses?

Also if we jump to the 3060s how are all the Smoke Jags gonna take the news that Huntress has fallen to Operation Serpent? Go re-roll as a Novacat or something...

The engines are not identical in performance, but the IS 'mechs have a suite of quirks and the ability to be completely rebuilt in any way the pilot wants, hardpoints notwithstanding. The 'mechs overall are pretty well balanced against each other, it doesn't matter if the engines are slightly different, even if one is strictly better it doesn't necessarily ruin balance.

On the balance, the Clan XL engines are working perfectly and the IS XLs face too harsh a penalty for ST destruction, but they should not be brought up to par with the Clan engine tech.

Anyone pushing for a form of 'balance' that is nothing more than totally equal performance needs to consider what that will do to 'mech and build diversity throughout the game.

I do not want to play a BT game with Clans involved where the tech is all exactly the same.

We do not send engines out to fight each other, weapons are not battling it out independent of their 'mechs. It does not ruin balance for IS weapons to be a little chunkier and for IS to have less options for fancy ballistics. IS has badass PPFLD autocannon, every single one aside from the LBX10 is a high-caliber single shot weapon, which is not a given in any Battletech game. The LBX is lighter than the AC/10, allowing a pilot to add an extra ton of ammo to compensate for the spread damage, and the IS have a truly killer weapon in the AC/5 for only a ton more than the Clan UAC/5.

It's no issue that the IS do not have ERML or UAC/10 or LBX2 (haha), they have some rugged weapons, truly optimized for mid-range savagery. An IS 'mech with 15-20% laser duration quirks gets basically Clan pulse laser shooting performance with lower heat scaled to the lower damage beam for standard laser weight.

IS are in an awesome place, with a better engine option they would absolutely steamroll Clanners. There are far better approaches to balance than just making every value identical across the hundreds of mechs in game.

[Andi Nagasia]

Omniseed, on 22 December 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

The engines are not identical in performance, but the IS 'mechs have a suite of quirks and the ability to be completely rebuilt in any way the pilot wants, hardpoints notwithstanding. The 'mechs overall are pretty well balanced against each other, it doesn't matter if the engines are slightly different, even if one is strictly better it doesn't necessarily ruin balance.

the ability to rebuild anything on a BattleMech vs Swapping Hardpoints on an OmniMech, is another Discussion,
thats not a IS vs Clan XL discussion, as both Sides have BattleMechs now,

Omniseed, on 22 December 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

On the balance, the Clan XL engines are working perfectly and the IS XLs face too harsh a penalty for ST destruction, but they should not be brought up to par with the Clan engine tech.

i could ask why not, but i see the lore reasoning, even with Steeper penalties,
IS XL should be able to Survive ST loss as Clans do,

Omniseed, on 22 December 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Anyone pushing for a form of 'balance' that is nothing more than totally equal performance needs to consider what that will do to 'mech and build diversity throughout the game.

I do not want to play a BT game with Clans involved where the tech is all exactly the same.

well this game which is being made having IS and Clan 1:1 has to have balance,
being balance doesnt not mean being both have to be identical, but for balance both should work the same,
perhaps you give Clan Mechs Less of a Penalty and IS mechs more Agility, both surviving ST loss,

Omniseed, on 22 December 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

We do not send engines out to fight each other, weapons are not battling it out independent of their 'mechs. It does not ruin balance for IS weapons to be a little chunkier and for IS to have less options for fancy ballistics. IS has badass PPFLD autocannon, every single one aside from the LBX10 is a high-caliber single shot weapon, which is not a given in any Battletech game. The LBX is lighter than the AC/10, allowing a pilot to add an extra ton of ammo to compensate for the spread damage, and the IS have a truly killer weapon in the AC/5 for only a ton more than the Clan UAC/5.

It's no issue that the IS do not have ERML or UAC/10 or LBX2 (haha), they have some rugged weapons, truly optimized for mid-range savagery. An IS 'mech with 15-20% laser duration quirks gets basically Clan pulse laser shooting performance with lower heat scaled to the lower damage beam for standard laser weight.

IS are in an awesome place, with a better engine option they would absolutely steamroll Clanners. There are far better approaches to balance than just making every value identical across the hundreds of mechs in game.

again weapons Balance is another Topic, here we are talking ideas and solutions to XL balance,
one can say well its only a problem to a couple people, and not everyone thinks things are out of Balance,
but at the time of this Post 7/10 people think that XL balance needs to be Looked at,

some may say IS Structure Quirks Balance this all out,
but personally i would like to see IS get XL ST Survivability,
and then have more Clan Mechs get Structure Quirks,
-
IS gets their XL ST Survivability,
and Clan gets their Structure Quirks,
Win Win for all sides, and TTK goes up,

[Sixpack]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

the ability to rebuild anything on a BattleMech vs Swapping Hardpoints on an OmniMech, is another Discussion,
thats not a IS vs Clan XL discussion, as both Sides have BattleMechs now,

In this case I would say you are going down a bad rabbid hole because all of the seperate things flow in to the whole of the game to create what we have. You can not focus on how XL engines function solely without also looking at how they are integrated in to the mech and how mech quirks effect XL engines being used in them.

I can understand that you want to keep the discussion focused, but the engine is kind of an integral part of a mech that decides a lot of other things as well.

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

the ability to rebuild anything on a BattleMech vs Swapping Hardpoints on an OmniMech, is another Discussion,
thats not a IS vs Clan XL discussion, as both Sides have BattleMechs now,


i could ask why not, but i see the lore reasoning, even with Steeper penalties,
IS XL should be able to Survive ST loss as Clans do,


well this game which is being made having IS and Clan 1:1 has to have balance,
being balance doesnt not mean being both have to be identical, but for balance both should work the same,
perhaps you give Clan Mechs Less of a Penalty and IS mechs more Agility, both surviving ST loss,


again weapons Balance is another Topic, here we are talking ideas and solutions to XL balance,
one can say well its only a problem to a couple people, and not everyone thinks things are out of Balance,
but at the time of this Post 7/10 people think that XL balance needs to be Looked at,

some may say IS Structure Quirks Balance this all out,
but personally i would like to see IS get XL ST Survivability,
and then have more Clan Mechs get Structure Quirks,
-
IS gets their XL ST Survivability,
and Clan gets their Structure Quirks,
Win Win for all sides, and TTK goes up,

TTK going up is not a bad thing. I really don't like the whole make the engines the same thing though. Has to be another way. Sounds cliché but that's exactly what I am thinking about this subject.

[Andi Nagasia]

Johnny Z, on 22 December 2016 - 04:37 PM, said:

TTK going up is not a bad thing. I really don't like the whole make the engines the same thing though. Has to be another way. Sounds cliché but that's exactly what I am thinking about this subject.

you know me Johnny im Trying to find one, but i feel its the best Idea,
make both XL engines survive ST loss, and keep the Differences in Weapons(IS to Clan)
this also allows all mechs to get Quirks which some Clan mechs need Greatly, IE MLX,

[Clownwarlord]

If PGI balances out the IS and Clan XL then all clan omnis will also need their pod space unlocked IF PGI also keeps all the buffs they have given IS to date.

[Tarl Cabot]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

you know me Johnny im Trying to find one, but i feel its the best Idea,
make both XL engines survive ST loss, and keep the Differences in Weapons(IS to Clan)
this also allows all mechs to get Quirks which some Clan mechs need Greatly, IE MLX,

The one thing missing on a few posts is that isXL survives the loss of one side torso but will likely have a slightly higher heat/movement penalty. Structural quirks are not there to protect an isXL engine since the same mech can simply equip a STD engine. Several of the clan omni and battlemechs ALSO have structural quirks and they ARE using a durable cXL engine. As long as the isXL engine is not in parity with cXL engine, anything else will simply cover up the base foundation, one build in a game with pinpoint accuracy for a majority of the game's weapons.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Clownwarlord, on 22 December 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

If PGI balances out the IS and Clan XL then all clan omnis will also need their pod space unlocked IF PGI also keeps all the buffs they have given IS to date.

Clan Battlemechs exist in game, so that's not a good argument any more.

[Y E O N N E]

Clownwarlord, on 22 December 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

If PGI balances out the IS and Clan XL then all clan omnis will also need their pod space unlocked IF PGI also keeps all the buffs they have given IS to date.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 December 2016 - 05:42 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Just like a politician trying to add a rider to be bill.

[Andi Nagasia]

Clownwarlord, on 22 December 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

If PGI balances out the IS and Clan XL then all clan omnis will also need their pod space unlocked IF PGI also keeps all the buffs they have given IS to date.

i willing to let all IS keep their Structure Quirks,
but with XL Balance, give Clan Mechs that need Quirks Quirks, Fair Quirks,

[Tiantara]

- All the problem in IS XL engine penalty right now which make some mech simply unplayable as they are. Even with massive structure\armor quirks. Or even with redesign hitboxes (which was implemented at least few times) of model that mech still not playable in their masses. Some players buy them by mistake and sell. Some just can't understand - why same XL engine must suffer from instant death penalty and go from game away or, most likely - choose clan mech and clan mech only (because they new and not veteran of MW with detailed knowledge of lore. I even agree to make event especially for veterans with 100% Lore build - as it possible in Private Lobby by "stock load").

Everyone understand that some quirks become useless when IS XL have no death penalty from Side Torso loss (and as I remember in PTS mech have no weapon quirks to make weapon balanced, so - that possible to do for structure and armor too). Instead of death penalty all what need to do - make them suffer by greater loss of speed and maybe heat efficiency. That much better than see new (!), I make accent to that, players which go away after some tryouts with "cheap" IS mech after buying XL engine and discover that mech become "glass" or "tincan" in real battle. And they suffer even more. How many of them will stay on IS side? Or how many of them go away from game?

Changing that old rusty mechanic from days when we have no Clan mech at all and have less players (and they all was true mechwarriors), great step into right way.
Players have choice:
1. Have STD engine, slow and heavy - but have room for weapon, ammo, heatsinks, no low speed after loosing side torso or death after loosing both side torso, zombie mode for some mech models.
2. Have changed IS XL engine - but have less for 40% speed after loosing one side torso and death after loosing both of them, less room for weapon and ammo.
3. have Clan XL with all their current benefits by choosing Clan mech instead of IS.

So player can take mech they like by view, choose side of faction they prefer, build all mech as they want by playstyle. Not buy survivability only as it now. Anyone who tired of death from IS XL already play for Clan now. Anyone who prefer only IS - take STD or make skill higher on XL, but they also move to clan when events come. Because if you pay $ and buy IS pack you also want have chance to win and because of skill fight, not buy luck getting no shot into weakest point of IS XL mech.

P.S. At least we get rid from friendly-fire-kills when some miss-shot go right into side torso of IS XL mech and kill it just easy by mistake. Especially in FP games. Because when it happens for some small group - all must wait for penalty or get rid of one from team to play further...

Edited by Tiantara, 22 December 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tarl Cabot, on 22 December 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

The one thing missing on a few posts is that isXL survives the loss of one side torso but will likely have a slightly higher heat/movement penalty. Structural quirks are not there to protect an isXL engine since the same mech can simply equip a STD engine. Several of the clan omni and battlemechs ALSO have structural quirks and they ARE using a durable cXL engine. As long as the isXL engine is not in parity with cXL engine, anything else will simply cover up the base foundation, one build in a game with pinpoint accuracy for a majority of the game's weapons.

yes and no, yes some Quirks are there to help with Mechs Geo on both sides,
but IS get much greater Quirks this mostly because of a Tech Imbalance between IS and Clan,
not many feel weapons between the two sides have been balance rather well, IS PP/FLD & Clan DPS,
but their are also other Imbalances mainly the C-XL and 1/2Upgrade Space imbalance,
-
but as the C-XL seems to be the greater and more easily to work out Imbalance thats what i chose to focus on,
i feel all XL Engines(IS & Clan) should behave the same(survive ST loss) perhaps with different Penalties,
(Clan could get Heat Penalties across the Board)(IS could get Agility Penalties across the Board)

[Jay Leon Hart]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 December 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

i feel all XL Engines(IS & Clan) should behave the same(survive ST loss) perhaps with different Penalties,
(Clan could get Heat Penalties across the Board)(IS could get Agility Penalties across the Board)

That's an interesting addition. It keeps the IS heat advantage and the Clan speed advantage. Me likey

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Maybe try; clan XL acts like STD engine when shot. IS XL acts like clan engine when shot from now on. This improves their durability to something reasonable but still flawed.

Clans have to use std to fill out certain lopsided builds so they cannot ditch XL's completely.