150 replies to this topic

[Zito]

MJ12 is opposing units 50% of the time from the IS side..

[mesmer]

Zito, on 15 December 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

MJ12 is opposing units 50% of the time from the IS side..

100% of those units appear to have Zito's mom as the drop caller.

Edited by mesmer7, 15 December 2016 - 08:13 PM.

[Tarogato]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

... LongQuote™...

MC rewards: agreed. It's a pittance. It needs to be increased dramatically.


Probation period (can't play CW until you have 100 QP matches under your belt) is unnecessary, because banning trial mechs in CW already does this. People aren't going to have a non-trial dropdeck ready until they've played several hundred matches (or sunk some money into the game immediately on starting.)


Banning trials: actually won't fix anything, because people will still bring terrible builds. They just don't know any better. Or some of them actually intentionally want to play lore-informed builds, and then continue to whine that Clan OP. I suspect that trial mech usage isn't really that high, nor is it as much of a factor as player skill is. I've seen plenty a time when somebody got 3000 damage in an all-trial deck on a fresh new alt account. And trial mechs STILL DONT HAVE ANY SKILL TREE UNLOCKS BY DEFAULT. Which they definitely should. No reason they shouldn't.


Splitting CW into a solo queue and a group queue: impossible. Not enough players/units to fill a group queue. "Matchmaking" times would be be absurd and units would stop playing altogether and just sync drop in solo. A viable option instead might be to limit solo dropping to Tier 1 players only. Tier 1 is chock full of potatoes, but it's at least some vague semblance of a skill filter - better than nothing. This way you don't get solo pug skittle tier failteams forming nearly as often, and if sub-Tier 1 players want to play, they have to join with somebody and drop as a group.

[mekabuser]

played my first fw,cw whatnot in well over a year.. because of quick drop added..

i DO NOT understand why there is NOT a queue for pugs and pugs only…

pugs v pugs will 90 percent of the time return a good match… JUST like it does in the other game modes..
LEt the teams play with each other and themselves. ..

I haven't played cw in idk 18 months and don't miss it one iota, but i would certainly LIKE the opportunity to play it..

pug only queue.. AT least try it once..

[Positive Mental Attitude]

mesmer7, on 15 December 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

100% of those units appear to have Zito's mom as the drop caller.

She must be sneaking out again...

[justcallme A S H]

Sjorpha, on 15 December 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

But you are one of the strongest units in the game, you are stomping most units and pugs alike and would probably do so as IS too, but you would get more quality opponents and have more fun.

You're passing up on good matches to have shinier toys to stomp newbs with, why? I don't get that decision honestly.

EVIL guys swap sometimes on the hour...

For about 3-4 weeks (a month ago) I played a fair bit with PROMO/Serial/KAI and 1-2 other guys pretty much every single day as IS as they play a bit in my time zone.

Was good fun as IS. Won some, lost some - usual caper. But they certainly aren't perma Clan. The 54MR isn't either. We just hop around depending on what is going on really.

[mekabuser]

and too bad if not enough groups for GROUP queue..
you will just kill cw again because groups can't help but be jerks.. So let them do that to each other..

with pug queue.. you at least have a chance of growing cw .. a few would join groups..

with pug stomp… Never.. ever gonna happen.

there is ALOT of effort put into the drop deck game mode. LET THE PUGS PLAY IT without having to deal with stupid… and i mean that, groups.

[Sjorpha]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 06:31 PM, said:

The tonnage difference doesn't matter. If changes nothing. It's like the mobility quirks on the KDK3. Almost irrelevant to the issue.

It actually changes very much. At least for units. Tonnage is a very significant advantage as the last two waves is going to play heavies and mediums against lighter mechs. This gives IS a chance to catch up as the match goes.

[Dex Spero]

justcallme A S H, on 15 December 2016 - 08:31 PM, said:

EVIL guys swap sometimes on the hour...

For about 3-4 weeks (a month ago) I played a fair bit with PROMO/Serial/KAI and 1-2 other guys pretty much every single day as IS as they play a bit in my time zone.

Was good fun as IS. Won some, lost some - usual caper. But they certainly aren't perma Clan. The 54MR isn't either. We just hop around depending on what is going on really.

Yup. I had the great pleasure of dropping with some EVIL guys who were slumming it over on the IS side. This was after a month long stompfest where they stomped me daily in the EVIL vs. PUG circle of hell It was so weird to see their names in blue instead of red! And it was great fun. I just kept my mouth shut and followed Uber around all match like a lost puppy so I could learn some moves. He's every bit as good as they say, btw.

[Zito]

Zito, on 15 December 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

MJ12 is opposing units 50% of the time from the IS side..

I did some actual math as I save most screen shots from our matches in NA time zone. Of our last 32 matches (8 days worth), 22 were verse units (at least 8 players in the game tagged by the same unit). In these 30 matches, only 8% of clan opposition was untagged. Often in these "non-unit games", we would face multiple 4 mans or similar.

We faced:
ARC7
PL
54MR
R79T
SWG-
228
BTD
BNB
10D
MWR
SC
07
420
Derp
CWI
Evil
AWOL
CGBI
CWI
((MS))

For what its worth, we are seeing more quality games from the IS side as clans have more units for us to face, which is what I think we all agree makes for better matches as you face coordinated players.

#mathformom

[Jettrik Ryflix]

Sjorpha, on 15 December 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

It actually changes very much. At least for units. Tonnage is a very significant advantage as the last two waves is going to play heavies and mediums against lighter mechs. This gives IS a chance to catch up as the match goes.

It matters in the hands of skilled pilots. However, the extra 15 tons doesn't help pugs who don't torso twist.

[justcallme A S H]

Zito, on 15 December 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

I did some actual math as I save most screen shots from our matches in NA time zone. Of our last 32 matches (8 days worth), 22 were verse units (at least 8 players in the game tagged by the same unit). In these 30 matches, only 8% of clan opposition was untagged. Often in these "non-unit games", we would face multiple 4 mans or similar.


For what its worth, we are seeing more quality games from the IS side as clans have more units for us to face, which is what I think we all agree makes for better matches as you face coordinated players.

#mathformom

Quite a bit of that will change in a week as I know at least half a dozen of those units switch up weekly. Some in addition to that are fortnightly.

With tonnage changes that's a dead set certainty now if it was being debated previously.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 December 2016 - 09:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Sjorpha, on 15 December 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

It actually changes very much. At least for units. Tonnage is a very significant advantage as the last two waves is going to play heavies and mediums against lighter mechs. This gives IS a chance to catch up as the match goes.

Unit v Unit play was already pretty close. That's not what's borking the game. Unit population disparity motivated by tech advantage on Clan side is.

For pugs more tonnage is just more pay for Clan side.

[Natural Predator]

Zito's mom gets a 400 ton drop deck. Just to make it fair.

[bravoxious]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Guys and PGI, before you read this topic, I'd like to point out that this is my view and view of my team mates. It may vary to views of other people and units. I am not saying that it is a right or wrong view and I am not saying that some of the solutions I offer are the way to move forward I am basically expressing my opinion. This is how we feel based on the last 3 days of game play.



Although PGI has attempted to resolve a FP “dilema” by brining QP maps into FP and reducing buckets (I am glad that they are trying at least) I am afraid those changes have been enough/successful at resolving the key issues with FP.



1)PUGs stomping:


From our experience playing for last several days (cumulatively unit players played over 30 Invasion games. This is not counting QP matches) we met units only 3 times. When I am talkinga bout units I really mean one unit MJ12. That’s it. All other games were against absolute novices (most of them didn’t even have unit tags). Those guys did on average between 20 to 300 damage. We had a whole banch of games with the score 48-4, 48-5, 48-3.



This is boring for us. Pugs don’t want to play like this and they quit FP.



Possible solution:



I know many people didn’t like the idea of quee splitting but I believe this is one way of resolving an issue. Split Groups vs Groups and Pugs vs Pugs. Prohibit one man units dropping into group quee. Provide adequate revards for the “pug” quee. Allow loaylist to put contracts for mercs to defend or attack specific planets. If a contract is achieved a unit gets additional cbills and loyalty points (without having to become loyalists).



2)Clans vs IS:


There is absolutely no incentive for teams to go to IS. IS is getting destroyed. Just in 2 days IS lost already close to 20 planets (or so). IS mechs are loosing badely on trades. There in no enough range or structure buffs to close the distance to clans for the brawling range.



Tonnage buff, although was a nice addition, is not enough. Too many new players join IS because clan mechs are expensive to buy and new players opt for IS mechs.


Trial mechs in FP MUST be BANNED! Most of the builds are terrible (based around “lore”), equipped with “lurms”, have way too little armor at the front and cooling so bad that they are practically unplayable even by experienced pilots.



Probation period. New players MUST not be allowed into FP unless they play 50, 75 or 100 games. Players need to have some experience to understand the flow of game a little bit.



3)Rewards for playing FP:


Most of players (long-term) who play FP are millioners or billioners. C-bills provide little to no incentives playing FP. A lack of competition is another massive turn-off for units. MC rewards are so small that they don’t provide any incentives at all. Let’s look at a medium unit with 30 to 50 player base. A unit receives 15 MC per cycle per planet. Which means that a team earns 45 MC per day or less than 1 MC per player if a unit size is over 40 players. What is 1 MC per day? Guys, come one.


Just to sum up everything. There is a big disbalance between Clans and IS. Teams are getting tired of playing vs pugs and pugs are getting tired of getting farmed. Whilst “tag of war system” made FP a bit more diverse and exciting this is not enough to keep FP population interested. Regretably, I am afraid the new system failed to address the core issues with FP…

Good Stuff Scar

[slide]

I remember way back during closed beta when units were screaming for a group only queue because stomping pugs wasn't fun. I know this because I was one of the people supporting the call. Even when you had to get lucky and sync drop 3-4 members in even with random mechs the effect of a little coordination was devastating to a random group of pugs. Move forward 4 years with much better players fielding (arguably) better equipment (clan) with synergised drop decks and and an actual plan (or at least knowing what to do) and communications and it will be a slaughter every time.

It was never a good idea to mix pugs with groups and it never will be! PERIOD!

PGI's continued failure to provide a basic match maker which separates pugs from groups in FP will continue to be the nail which holds the lid on the coffin of FP until it is removed.

FP only continues to be the play ground of an ever decreasing pool of unit players because every other player has been driven out for one reason or another, usually repeated stomps, before they have even had a chance to learn what the mode is about, let alone how to play it or what mechs to buy/build.

PGI needs to drop everything else they are doing and hotfix in a pug/group queue split post haste or else FP 4.1 will be as dead as FP3 inside of a month. This cannot wait until the next patch in January or worse February.

For those unit players worried about filling out games it may well be tough for you now but it will be better for the mode in the long haul as players will eventually get better and then start looking for units to play with. Stomping them out of the game will never see that happen (maybe a very few will see the light but I doubt it).

As for pugs losing more than teams can win in the tug of war. If the game is balanced then pug v pug should average out at about 50% if it doesn't then maybe the side losing can get some help in the tonnage department. As others have said more tonnage in the pug v group game just means more Cbills for the group.

[hybrid black]

mekabuser, on 15 December 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

played my first fw,cw whatnot in well over a year.. because of quick drop added..

i DO NOT understand why there is NOT a queue for pugs and pugs only…

pugs v pugs will 90 percent of the time return a good match… JUST like it does in the other game modes..
LEt the teams play with each other and themselves. ..

I haven't played cw in idk 18 months and don't miss it one iota, but i would certainly LIKE the opportunity to play it..

pug only queue.. AT least try it once..

well they did do this... and solos did not find games and groups did not find games..

[JinSR]

Just My 2cents quickly.

We do need to segregate groups vs pugs, otherwise no matter what mechanic balancing we can conjure it will never make up for skilled players vs new players. Or organised groups vs scattered players
Ideally if you group up with a few friends or a unit, expect to be paired up against other groups.

Having said that, this is Faction Play 4.1, first interation of phase 4. Trying to be optimistic even considering PGIs record for content, so lets wait what comes next before we pick up the pitch forks.

I seriously feel like this Clan vs IS arguement really isnt the core issue of why FP feels one sided to people.

Think about how the game is set up from the beginning as a new player. U dont learn ANYTHING you need to learn to play faction, you hide, conserve, use teammates to shield urself, these are really bad habits in FP and probably the first thing that needs addressing.

Secondly as a new palyer, what would u end up buying first? really super cheap IS mechs? or expensive clan mechs? Cbills are very hard to get from the beginning if u dont know anything in the game, so naturally new players will pick IS mechs first or even use the trial mechs.

Thirdly, bucket vs bucket makes way better queue times but these new players get paired up against the experianced and instinctually its never a "teamwork/coordinate trumps all" its they have superior mechs, XX mech is unbalanced. It never feels good to go up against a organised group, when u are paired up with someone called Mechwarrior40532,

Fourthly, balancing mechs, PGI needs to decide a focal/reference point on how to balance mechs. Are we balancing quick play matches? are we balancing around new palyers and casual players who dont have good aim/builds? are we balancing faction play? tournament play? WC or MRBC? There needs to be foresight and hindsight to a very clear and concise goal. If X mech gets balanced its because they are overperforming in Y platform.

Lastly, unit sizes and faction stacking. Personal opinion, you can all disagree, but unit sizes need to be addressed. A Faction Play unit containing....100 odd players? joining clan or IS will affect the win loss of that particular faction regardless of balance, and if we have say...all the major units stacking on a single faction like Jade Falcon and just makes the map look trivial.

Now amongst all these other factors that are contributing to the statistics of Faction play, should we really be raising our pitchforks primarily at Clan vs IS balance? For Me it almost feels scapegoatish.

As much as I think how many people disagree with the other of allowing players to drop in IS and/or Clan mechs no matter which side your on, I believe its a good idea.

Lore players will hate it, it may even screw with the essence of the game. But as an experiment, as a trial phase for faction play, if we can ELIMINATE the Clan vs IS variable firstly it will make every other problem more apparent to the public eye and the devs eye and hopefully easier to fix aswell.

Edited by JinSR, 16 December 2016 - 12:28 AM.

[Kmieciu]

slide, on 15 December 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

I remember way back during closed beta when units were screaming for a group only queue because stomping pugs wasn't fun.

It was kind of fun. I used to have 8+ KDR back then. Seal clubbing never gets old. When it did, we used to take joke-builds like the boom-chickens or flamer commandos.

But it was bad for the game. I bet the 8-man vs PUG caused a lot of players to give up on MWO.

That is why now that we have only one FW bucket, we can need a matchmaker that creates matches, solo PUGS vs solo PUGS and groups vs groups.

But I bet most Units that went Clan don't want that.
They want to farm IS Solos getting easy 1+ mill every match.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 December 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[meteorol]

Tarogato, on 15 December 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Banning trials: actually won't fix anything, because people will still bring terrible builds.

Judging from what i have seen from IS pugs, they would often be better off with trial mechs than with what they actually bring.