4 replies to this topic

[Arugela]

I'm hoping they are going to add this with teh changes they said about up close server issues.

If I'm not mistaken isn't melee missig part of the problem with strategy in the game atm. As all weapons are dps even at various range over time with heat. Basically you always want to go to your lowest ideal weapon range. This is good as some mechs should be back a little support as not everyone can get in front. but when you do you only have flamers which do no damage and sacrifice hardpoints hence DPS> There is no advantage and in face disadvantages for anyone getting point blank. This is why the player developed common strategies are all screwy. You need mechs that get in the face and out DPS at point blank to break lines and allow full strategy. Not only that but you need it to outDPS to incentivise and and not make you only even out with a non melee mech you face down. This is for several reasons. There is an actual reason to get point blank becuase most weapons are ideal at several hundred meters distance and you get a bonus to make up for getting that close. This means you are good at getting that close and gives you the extra umph to get to the next guy and not be basically dead as all other options like torso twisting are virtually the same on all mechs and openly available. They also reduce DPS which is bad. So there is no reason currently to get in their faces really. Or not as many as there should be.

The other problem is to get point blank range you will cover the other mech reducing support making it even worse. This is where the advantage comes in. Some mechs should do extra damage up close specifically and be good at taking out the enemy at point blank range. This is currently not an option and drives me nuts on my kodiaks because it is built like it should be up close and I know I should be able to do it to break the enemy line and mess them up good. The issue is getting in their face also blocks some of their support but it also blocks yours. And to be a good up close mech you need extra Hardpointless DPS when you get in range for it to work. It's the reward for getting in range. Else the damage would have to be from ranged weapons and would still be best at range meaning it does not create a mech where it is good at point blank attacks. But certain mechs should have the melee as an advantage. As a counter this creates good strategy by making it so mechs without melee want to stand back and use teamwork to counter your charge. This should create a realization about a lot of other healthy strategies making the games overall better played. it also basically does what happened in WW1 and 2. It avoids endless range battles because you know if someone does get upclose they will be able to wreck face in essence and make strategy more fluent. It will also get people to support to mechs and get pushes more when they should happen. This stops endless ranged combat.(AKA trench warfare.) So it seem to me the game problem is simple. We are in WW1 trench combat conditions and missing the melee combat(Among other things possible) to give us the option to get out of it.

Currently I like close range and build mechs that increase damage as they go in. Medium range with more stuff getting to super close range. This is good on mechs like the Kodiak who run better in alot of ways with low range because of heat. But we have those nice weapons we can't use meaning it's never truly gets the reward for making in close range meaning it's virtually pointless. Although the mech design is screaming this is what you should do with it.

There is a reason mechs have certain hardpoint layouts. But I think the game is not complete and certain things are missing that naturally explain why they have those hardpoints. Especially like the kodiak where there are obscene amounts of them. It's meant for certain strategies and they are not playable. This also makes an interesting separation with mechs with different arm. The Direwolf for instance has the same Kodiak layouts but with no melee. It is designed to be a little farther back and support. Hence it's speed also. But this, again, leaves a hole in the strategy of the game. It is the one thing driving me nuts and making the game unplayable. Becuase this affects who everyone else plays and my usefulness in my role. I like those mechs specifically and shou;d be able to sue them how they are intended.

The kodiak as a good example has the speed for closeing the gap. Not just moving around the map. It is supposed to be able to face down it's enemies if it goes with a short range build. this messed up the overall strategy also because everyone(under the circumstance to an extent) rightly stays at range. But not everything is supposed to. You need those mechs with varying roles doing what they are supposed to do. Or the strategy gets stale and messed up and unbearable(pardon the pun! ><)

And without a non hardpoint weapon, not sacrificing extra short range damage, that face hugging strategy can't be played out correctly and do what it should be able to do for the team. So if this made enough sense part of the games problem is it has missing strategies and roles atm. One of which is certain mechs not getting their melee damage. And it is vital to the health of the game.

the reality of mechs moving back to counter and stay at range of charging mechs also opens up more strategy. Some times it makes is so you also make them move so you can get in a push as well. this all opens up strategy more as it should and puts back some of the dynamics that normally exist that are currently not in game. In my personal opinion this is very badly missing. And it is messing up the entire game and making it near unplayable if you do not enjoy sitting back and just shooting stuff behind rocks. I want more fluid and natural strategy. I want the option to do more. And without the correct things in place that will never happen as most will do what is easiest. so counter incentives need to be in place. One of those is proper melee range attacks on proper mechs like the kodiak. AKA mechs with the designs to give the the proper option to be point blank assaulters.

TLDR but hey! I think I'm onto something important. I assume I'm not the only one to realize and be annoyed by this. That is my favorite type of mech btw. I hate just about anything else.

Basically what this does it not allow all the mechs to do what they are naturally designed to do. it destroys the diversity of the game and makes is to all layouts are not as usefull as they should be. It probably also makes all sorts of weir balancing issues and problems in the game. the sooner this sort of stuff is put in game the sooner this game should start to improve.

You should be using all the mechs slots and it should be ideal to do so. they have those hardpoints to give them specialized abilities. Which when the game is complete should all help each other out naturally and work together. Almost no matter the combination. But currently some of those mechs are not playable in full and messing up game play dynamics if I'm not mistaken.

Edited by Arugela, 15 December 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

I agree that melee and fall mechanics are the next critical step for improving this game significantly. You can see that most of the IS mechs have at least one arm that is intended to be causing melee harm. I also think it adds necessary balance to the IS by providing them a basic function mechs were intended to perform (punching and kicking). I think that it could even be taken one step further by allowing clan mechs with similar appendages be allowed to perform melee attacks, but at a penalty (c-bills) because of how they look down on melee combat.

It should require clear, initial steps to perform a variety of melee attacks (including attacks from higher ground), but also come with its own set of risk such as missing, falling, and receiving damage to the limb attacking, but also come with benefits such as being able to potentially target areas they wish to target on the enemy mech and maybe even temporarily disable (by grabbing) enemy weapon systems.

I would be ecstatic even if they just started implementing a little bit at time, like starting with falls, then adding punches and kicks as they are sorted out over time.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

and all The problems with Hitzones, Animations,Damagesystem, Controlling the Meleeatacks ...thats not Beat em Up Mortal Combat mechs ...thats Tanks of Legs ;-) not agile Robojox , more Abrams M1 of legs , what for Melee Attacks use in modern Warmachine Combat ?! why nowhere builds Tanks or Ships with Rammingsporns ? or Mechanical arms with Melee weapons ...that like a Knight Army against Canons and Longbows...many mechs no have Hands , Melee combat most in BT a last Try to fight with destroyed weapons and no ammo...3-5 tons for a Melee weapon ?or more DHS , Ammo or a larger Weapon? many Problems with melee

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 15 December 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Arugela]

I'm pretty sure melee would naturally lead to better teamwork because of utility mechs. Little JJ mechs with The ability to clamp on to enemies would be funny. If they can jump on your back and machine gun you to death it would be hilarious, but also lead to needing to think of playing with a buddy in match a little more.

There is that new light mech that looks like it has utility weapons to clamp and saw off arms. A timer or something todo damage and take off limbs would be intersting. Of course it should take into account if the limb is perpenidular or horizontal correctly and otherthings. Though knock down mechanics with that buz saw arm could be funny. One mech knnowck them down or trip them with a small mech behind the legs then another using enough force in teh front then swarming with lights to dissasemble.. ><

The other things I forgot about was different damage per arm strength and geometry. There are tons of cool unique features that could come from those limitations. It would be interesting to see. Especially if you really take into account the physics and engieering sides of it and do it carefully. I wonder if some woud have drills that could punch through to the structure or something. Or if the cinder I just got has more than arms and are grappling hooks you could shoot on terrain or other mechs to be dragged behind like a skiier or climb to get angles to shoot you normally couldn't. could make up for the lack of JJs. Mind you I've never played the Table top games or even the earlier video games so I'm not familiar with what they should do. But they look interesting.

I wonder if stuff like that new light mech, the roughneck, being utility could cut through terrain or buildings. Making new paths in the game would be interesting. You'll notice pictures of different mechs of the same type also have different arm types in some cases. Meaning that if this part of the game were finished it could eventually bring alot of unique use to even specific varients of mechs that they lack now.

I wonder if any of the testing for this stuff will get done in MM5 and whatnot... If it's similar enough alot coud get worked on or prealphaed in the game potentially.

I forgot the main point I was going to say. Mechs should have different damage based on arms specifications(I technically said this already actually)... And different effects for the "melee". A Kodiac should punch harder or have a different effect than a light mech. Unless it is specialized of course. It will be cool if they add it what they can do with the melee stuff. It is potentially really diverse...

Maybe kodiaks arms could punch through armor and get 4 hits on the structure(wolverine style) with a little on the armor for each arm.. that would be potent! maybe a chance to penetrate and do damage and not just always hitting also. Could be based on remaining armor. The lighter the armor the more likely to pen on attack. Other mechs could have similar affects based on the weapon or nature of the arm weapons... that type of consideration alone could make each mech attack unique. then some mechs have higher pen based on the nature of the weapon and others more damage with less pen or whatever combo... Kodiaks aren't drills but the are strong and could penetrate under certain circumstances. Or maybe they get a bigger bonuse because of bluntness to structure when it does get past armor. Were there rules like this in the table top rules? It reminds me of D&D rules. they could use traditional rules from various RPG's and have weapon types like slash, blunt, peirce, etc, each with different effects and each with unique values and side effects. The could add new ones if needed like drills and saws or just modify it for each mech using other types. Drills are technically already mechanically working like a certain type. Or use real engineering/mechanics types as base to be thorough and use real formula types and hardness etc. Armor could be a certain hardness and structure a different. And values could be different per mech or whatever parameters are appropriate. Lots of stuff could be used. It's a computer game so the more calculations the more interesting potentially. Outside of possible lag of course.

They could consider very simply initial potential force. then take into account what it went through and what type of weapons/object going through what. Maybe even soft points(or a very detailed grid) on the mechs eventually making it realistic. This all changing damage and giving it more character and more things to consider when attacking. Most of which can be simplified mathematically to something pretty small too.

If the server has to account for 4 points and check a few values it can't be worse than the machine gun or other things right? Or is there a computer some where frying in their server room from massive weapon damage checking! ><

The fun thing about all of this is the affects can vary wildly. Even with very simple formulas a kodiaks punch being blunt could vary random affects or different affects in different circumstances. while other weapons also having very different affects. This would add as much character to the game as the entire existing game mechanics potentially. You would never get a stale match again.

And it would be funny if those little arms on my adder cinder were grappling hooks. I'll have to look that up. I'd be, "hanging around," all match.

I forgot. If the arm is fragile and grasps something strong it could get damage by moving forces too. This would make things much less overpowered and deal with a lot of "issues". I think that is all that is needed to make them work right. Just the correct considerations. If considered right then grasping the center of a large mech could be safer than the sides or legs. Making melee more skill based. if not the arm could be ripped off or the arm and limb damaged in various ways. Assuming it takes into account geometry. Which can be done with a simple formula for a circle added in to rotation forces. This could also be accounted for in damage. So swinging into an enemy could be better than simply attacking. This could go with defensive tactics well also as you would be twisting already to avoid damage.

This would mean even more unique damage based on other stats like yaw twist. That could be utilized heavily by mechs with different weapon types like piercing weapons etc. They could also add breakage into the attack so you have to think out the weapons more also. Lots and lots of unique game play to different mechs. And new considerations for the skill tree choices coming up later.

So, what are those little arm like things on the Adder. Are they just arms or do they do something else like act like grappling hooks? they could set it up so it's like a UAV. Certain mech with radar can detect it. Or if they simply see it they can attack it and knock it down etc. Maybe the cord is vulnerable also to lasers etc. Could be fun. It would be hilarious to see fleets of adders just popping up on the horizon dangling there. Especially if they sway in the breeze or anything. If wonder if they would be able to make themselves twist wildly. there would be another aspect. The affects of weapon fire on the mech. That would go with the falldown stuff. But in this case it could be for dangling mid air! >< "Shoots gun swirls around at 100MPH and wait to stop for next shot." That would be hilarious! Even funnier if return fire makes the cords move and makes them swing around! Those would be some skilled snipers.

Edited by Arugela, 15 December 2016 - 09:16 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

we will you control Arms and Legs , and aim to grabbing attacking components ? in this time to control the Pushing Parts and aim to a Part , the enemy blast you head away for this , you must use a Motion full Control suit an Virtual View Helmet wich animated all this Melee Attacks ? today in MWO , the mech can only hold the arms in Hiphight and can not use and control the Arms separately , not hold a Arm in the Air or around a Edge , or can it hold over Cover...thats the Restrictions of the control elements today.we have no Elementars in the Game ...thats little Power Suits(3m Tall) only can climb on Mechs in BattleTech Universe ...light Mechs in BT to Large for it in Lore the most Mechs all around 8-12 m ,the tallest mech the Atlas with 16m ...in MWO the Hightdifference is greater (heavys in Assaultsize and the Assaults to 18m ...)
thats Walking tanks not Mount& Blade thats not Anime Swordfighters or Gundams , more Steel Battalion

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 16 December 2016 - 03:22 AM.