40 replies to this topic

[TWIAFU]

MischiefSC, on 17 December 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

None. Tonnage isn't the fix. It's not even a band aid.

I dunno M_SC, they way clans are complaining that there is now a "bit of a challenge" it seems to be doing something.

[Tibbnak]

I was just in a FW invasion match where the clan side was full of absolute silent potatos, and the IS side was full of decently skilled people who communicated, and the clan side still won.

[Darky101]

They dont need ta onage advantage!
250-250 was good.
i play both sides!
My is mechs wreck clan mechs.

[Appogee]

The problem isn't tonnage. And that's why no amount of tonnage will fix the problem.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Appogee, on 18 December 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

The problem isn't tonnage. And that's why no amount of tonnage will fix the problem.

There are 17 respondents to the poll advocating a 63% IS tonnage advantage. There will have to be a huge skill difference for a Clan force to overcome that. With that big a gap, the Clan side would win the occasional match but never a round of planets. As potato as the average non-merc IS pilot is, the average skill level isn't that low.

I know people want matchmaking, but that can't be implemented with small queues. I suppose PGI could try to sort collections of small groups versus small, and larger groups vs larger, but that won't do much except increase wait times. Drop weight advantage may not be elegant, but at least it can be implemented.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 18 December 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

There are 17 respondents to the poll advocating a 63% IS tonnage advantage. There will have to be a huge skill difference for a Clan force to overcome that. With that big a gap, the Clan side would win the occasional match but never a round of planets. As potato as the average non-merc IS pilot is, the average skill level isn't that low.

I know people want matchmaking, but that can't be implemented with small queues. I suppose PGI could try to sort collections of small groups versus small, and larger groups vs larger, but that won't do much except increase wait times. Drop weight advantage may not be elegant, but at least it can be implemented.

Current Planet Count;

IS: 0
Clan: 153

Hard fought battles are exciting, fun, thrilling, and rewarding.

Pointless ones are not.

[LordNothing]

been winning a lot of games since the tonnage change. an absurd number of games for a pug in fp. im starting to think a commando worth of spread is a little too much. maybe a locust worth of spread would be better. but no less than 15 tons.

i also have to agree that i dont like tonnage being the go to answer, but its working, i guess its all about dialing in the right amount. the only other alternative is stars vs lances, and thats even more absurd. that or a lot of unpleasant clan nerfs.

if some of the would-be competitive players could balance out the sides then perhaps maybe we can do equal tonnages. and i actually think thats what pgi aims to do. when they get a certain number of units into the sphere, they will probibly immediately roll back the tonnage changes, and there will be subsequent tail chasing.

Edited by LordNothing, 18 December 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Starbomber109]

Darky101, on 18 December 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

They dont need ta onage advantage!
250-250 was good.
i play both sides!
My is mechs wreck clan mechs.

That was slightly before (or right around the time that) the Kodiak existed, and also before the UAC changes. With the Kodiak now available for C-Bills and IS UACs jamming more often it seems like, or maybe feels like, the clans have a bigger advantage now than they did back then.

Edit: ON that note, I did like 250 at that time. It felt right. Not too heavy, not too light, and you could still do silly things like 2x King Crab 2x Locust If you really wanted to enjoy Gauss Rifle online XD )

Edited by Starbomber109, 18 December 2016 - 05:49 PM.

[Sedmeister]

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

The poll is simple. Assuming no changes to any other mechanics, what size do the invasion drop decks need to be in order for IS and Clan to be balanced?

I know some people want to change XL engine, or make it a 10v12 drop, and some people want more weapon changes, or quirk buffs. Set that aside for now, and let's try and quantify exactly how big the gap is.

Caveat: (That's Cah-Vee-Aht, not ca-vette )
PGI is doing this already, and is using drop deck size to dial in Invasion balance. They will almost certainly do it badly for the first few weeks, due to big units sloshing back and forth between the sides.

I predict that Forum Play participants will vastly overestimate this gap, perhaps enough to flip the script and see the Clans pushed back to their beachhead planets. This may even be worth doing, just to finally prove that IS Loyalists need to whine less and git gud.

But, for now, just be honest -- how big is the tech gap?

Vincent, this is a great conversation starter. Is it too late to indicate allegiance in the poll?

Reason for asking is that I have been reading comments by both sides regarding balance/imbalance. It is fascinating reading those with a clear IS allegiance agreeing with clan aligned comments regarding player skill level and coordination arguments, as well as clearly clan aligned players agreeing with the clan tech superiority arguments. Wondering what light an additional question in the poll regarding allegiance might shed?

Thanks for putting this together.

[tenchugecko]

Appogee, on 18 December 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

The problem isn't tonnage. And that's why no amount of tonnage will fix the problem.

I see the same problem.
clans got the heat advantage now, which ie. grants them a much earlier 3rd alpha strike and a possible 4th with shutdown
ie clan ppc vs is erppc: clan ppc got 1 extra heat sink tonnage+slots. x1.5 instead of x1.1

dropdeck tonnage doesnt influence armor and heatsinks as much as an earlier and an extra alpha strike would.

15t on 4 mechs...lets say 20hp per mech on a ct vs. +40 dmg for an earlier alpha strike that kills you.

[Vincent Quatermain]

Sedmeister, on 18 December 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Vincent, this is a great conversation starter. Is it too late to indicate allegiance in the poll?

Poll responses are public, so you can click on the pilot profiles. It looks like the respondents are mostly mercs, with a few freelancers and loyalists, about even split in factions too. There doesn't seem to be any correlation between allegiance and response. Small sample, though.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 18 December 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[naterist]

jesus christ, 75 tons... really? even I dont think its that off.

[Cptn Goodvibes Pig of Steel]

It doesn't matter. Is pointless and not the real issue. There's a clear perception within the community that FW is just a seal club for the designated elite and there is no point going near it if you are not dropping as part of a group. Most experienced solo players have learn't that FW is not their game and are just steering clear of it. I think this message has rung loud and clear to anyone who follows the forums and is readily apparent when you get your proverbial handed to you when dropping as a pug against a group. Calling pugs potatoes and ridiculing them just makes them less want to associate with the people playing the mode and for that matter, the game. Its all something for PGI to sort out and the ball has been in their court for the last two years. If or when they do fix FW, then maybe, just maybe the numbers will return. But roll on 2017 and see what other competition is on the horizon. Its just a game after all.

[Graugger]

TWIAFU, on 18 December 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Current Planet Count;

IS: 0
Clan: 153

Hard fought battles are exciting, fun, thrilling, and rewarding.

Pointless ones are not.

But there is a point, we are "giving" the clanners free MC to buy MOAR stuff with each planet we lose!

[xe N on]

FW stail an epic fail mode. I agree that no tonnage will fix this mode. At some point in near future, I will foretell, IS will dominate Clans.

PUG vs. Premade | Tier 5 vs. Tier 1 | Merc faction switching.

This are the 3 major problem. Not tech balance.

None of them where solved in phase 4.

Edited by xe N on, 19 December 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

I used a whole 195 on this trial mech deck it wasn't to big of an issue haha Blanket nerf/buff tonnage is not going to balance this.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 19 December 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[exiledangel]

they must have another tukayyid and that is why they are expecting clans to roll all the way down there lol

[Fake News]

kapusta11, on 18 December 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

IS mechs that used to be competitive should have their quirks restored. Clans keep getting more optimized mechs while all that IS keeps getting is nerfs.

optimized? yeah the mad iic came out with all the weapon quirks.

[feeWAIVER]

Drop weights should fluctuate constantly, and be accompanied by flavor text about supply lines and whatnot.

[Vincent Quatermain]

feeWAIVER, on 20 December 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Drop weights should fluctuate constantly, and be accompanied by flavor text about supply lines and whatnot.

I think that would be awesome. I would love to have the winning side's drop weight fall and the losing side's drop weight increase. Add in some critical planets where winning means your drop weight doesn't fall, and FP could be a lot more interesting. Not hard to implement, either. (This would also give some purpose to the ceasefire mechanic, since everyone would have to adjust their drop decks.)

Let that mechanic play out, and we would get a really good measure of the true tech advantage -- borne out of hundreds of matches rather than a few dozen players speculating.

Edited by Vincent Quatermain, 20 December 2016 - 03:23 PM.