22 replies to this topic

[N0D]

Yes, there's a lot of info on the forums, scattered around many topics and guides. Many of it is badly outdated, like, written and tested in 2013, while i know for a fact, that there were many changes made to ultracannon mechanics since the beta 1. I never used them guns myself, only learned how to protect oneself from them: immediate torsotwist and crabwalk to cover without doing an attempt to shoot back. Uac rate of fire is insane, no one except lights will twist it back in time after return fire, and lights are pretty much f***ed if they stand still under any uac shots.
I get the feeling that, like, everyone knows how uac works in detail. Except me. Everyone remains silent when i ask in game - probably because there's too much to explain and they don't want to bother. This is excruciatingly infuriating! It's like i somehow missed a mandatory collective instruction, at the end of which the instructor said something along the lines of: "...and remember kids, all this is a secret, so keep your mouths shut, or i'll personally visit your home and'll go medieval on your @ss with this my favorite stick right here!".
Yes, i probably could've just learn it all the hard way: buy a specialized ballistic mech (instead of using trial ones, that never carry the stuff i want to test) and test all the desirable combo's timings and other stuff. But problem here is the cost. Only the Kodiak or Dire Whale can sport good quad+ ballistics, afaik, and these mechs aren't exactly cheap. At least not enough for me to spend c-bills on a whim of learning uac mechanics. That's why i'm here, asking for help again. Anyone willing to share info?

Jamming.
1.When does it occur? Does only the second shot (on doubleclick) may jam the weapon, or it can jam anytime?
2.Should i continue to click after the weapon is jammed? Does it do anything good/bad for the weapon? I heard that clicking arain resets (prolongs) unjam time. Is it true, outdated, or completely false?
3.Does holding your mouse button, responsible for firing respective ballistic weapon group, initiate double fire as fast as the weapon allows it (or does it initiate double fire at all)? If so, what are the consequences/penalties of the "easy way"?
4.Why do some people recommend placing each uac on a different weapon group? What if i don't have (or don't want to use) so many buttons on my mouse?
5.Is there a specific way to minimize jamming overall? Like, does intervals between second tap matter? Or things like that.
Heat.
1.Does the second shot on doubleclick generate additional heat now?
2.Is that additional shot a subject to a ghost heat? For example, if i fire my uac20 once, then decide to fire it again while it is on "reload", while firing other uac20 at the same time, will i generate additional heat? What if i decide to make two second shots at the same time instead?
3.What is the interval between no-ghost-heat shots for uac20/10/5? When this interval starts? From the first shot? From the doubleshot made? Ex., if this interval is 0,5sec, should i wait it after the first shot, or should i start waiting it after the first doubleshot?
Ammo consumption.
1.Does interval of time between first and second shot matter in anything that involves actual shells fired and ammo consumed? Like, does specific timing let me fire more shells overall?
2.Does jammed shot consume ammo? If yes, what if i click again while weapon's jammed - shall ammo be consumed again?
Clan vs non-clan.
Are there any differences between, for example, uac/10 and c-uac/10? Aside from slots used and weight, of course. Doubleshot timings, jam chance, ghost heat and ghost heat intervals?
Finally, a pair of specific problems for those masochistic sobs, who like solving puzzles and such:
Let's say i have a kodiak-3 with a bit outdated setup of quad c-uac/10's. What is the best dps pattern for it, and how do i group my weapons?
2 groups of two uac's? First lmb(left mouse button) click, 0,5sec pause, second lmb click, 0,5sec pause, first rmb click, 0,5sec pause, second rmb click, then rinse and repeat when group 1 reloads? ...Or what?
What if i have 2 c-uac/10 and 2 c-uac/5 ???

[Reverend Herring]

I don't use uAC's much myself, but can answer some of your guestions:

Jamming:
1: Ultra-AC has a 15% chance to jam on douple click. So no jam on normal fire. (The % might be wrong, but you get the idea)
2: Jam last for 5 seconds. To my knowledge clickin won't do anything.
3: Holding mouse button down will not count as double click. The weapon will fire after norman cool down like an ordinary autocannon.
4: I guess it's for simulating macro fire. As in, you tap the buttons in fast sequense to acchieve maximum RoF.
5: No matter. If you doupple tab then you hace a 15% chance for jamming. That's it.

Heat:
1: Yes. Same heat as normal shot.
2: Dunno
3: Dunno

Ammo:
1: No.
2: No?

Clan/IS
1: IS AC:s fire a single slug as opposed to busrt fire on the Clan autocannons. So IS (u)AC:s deal pin point damage where as C-(u)AC:s spread more. Besides that, there are differences for example in cooldown and jam chance.

You can check the stats for all weapons here: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Hope that helps.

Edited by Reverend Herring, 18 December 2016 - 04:16 AM.

[Leone]

Before the change to jam time I used to run a dual uac 5 for my IS mechs in place of an AC 20. Same damage, better refire rate, a few extra tonnes. So, here goes.

Jamming:
1: 15% for IS uac5, 17% for Clan uacs as of November patch notes.
2: Used to be first click increased jam time, way back when. Haven't noticed anything of late. Only that the increased jam time really makes em feel less useful.
3: Holding it down turns your uac into a auto-re-firing AC. Good for prolonged brawls where you don't need the 'drop them now!' uac panic attack.
4: Probably due to the icrease second of jamming if that's still in play. Also, stagger fire, whilst less efficient is hilarious.
5: Every shot whilst on cooldown has a jam chance, so keep to double taps to minimize jam per shot while keeping a decent dps. True, you'll do more damage mashing the fire controls, but then each shot has that jam chance.

Heat:
1: Yes, every shot is hot.
2: Yes, but with secondary weapons. Firing two uac 10 twice inna row doesn't trigger ghost heat, but firing two, and then double tapping and firing a third does. (Had been a bug when first nerfed, but was fixed.)
3: 0.5 seconds after the last shot. But that's why the suggestion is dual 10s and dual 5s, to avoid any ghost heat.

Ammo:
1: Nope, pretty clear here. Shells fired is shells fired. No messing about.
2: Nope, not fired, not spent.

Clan Vs IS:
There is no IS uac 10. The IS uac 5 fires a single shell so technically has a faster refire rate despite the same cooldown, is a 6s jam rather'n a 6.5s and has a 15% rather'n a 17% jam chance.

Firing patterns:
So with quad uac 10s, you'll wanna have a double tap firing group 1 (two uac 10s) double tap group 2 (the other two.) This'll keep you from ghost heat and minimize jam chance whilest putting a decent amount of shells downrange. If you have a four button mouse I could see why folk would suggest different firing groups for each, so you could just fire the working ones. I dunno. There's always firing group 1 till both jam, fire second group till both jam, pull into cover.

As for the dual uac 10's plus dual uac 5's, I'd go with mash fire everything until two jam up then take cover until unjammed. Or, if brawling, double tap, cooldown, double tap, until you see an opening to finish the fight and or pull back, then unleash the fury.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 18 December 2016 - 06:07 AM.

[Koniving]

I'm not gonna organize this for you, but instead I'll drop it here.

UACs -- if you have a loose mouse button -- could jam on the first shot from an accidental double click. Supposedly it doesn't matter when you click during the cooldown, but it does seem the earlier you click after firing, the more likely something may happen so try to space your clicks out with a single syllable word. Click "Miss" Click "Miss" Click "Hit" Click "Hit". While the jam rate is RNG-based, an immediate double click seems much more likely to do something bad.

Side note: There's a jam check for every time you click during the UAC cooldown even if you already fired the second shot. This got kinda mentioned before under Leone's 2nd article. This may have been fixed to stop checking after the secondary fire, however I still advise caution as they always break when you panic.

Then again in this game, everything that can go wrong will go wrong when you panic.

Holding the button will keep your UAC in what Battletech calls "Standard Firing mode". Tapping it will put your UAC in what Battletech calls "Ultra Firing mode."

Warning: Lore.
It isn't terribly relevant here, but UACs and ACs are very different in Battletech lore, they fire up to as many as one hundred shots to deliver "approximately 20 damage." The difference between an AC and the UAC, is the UAC is made to be able to spam shots faster due to improved reloading and ejection mechanisms and barrel strength to better handle the heat and stress compared to a standard AC (which all ACs as of a rule started in the early 90s in level 2 Battletech can double fire as well, but with a jam chance of over 50%...and given that jams lasted until you got back to a Mech Bay or at the very least until the end of a conflict where you can have a fellow mech, technician with equipment, or if it is so agile your own mech and a lot of personal stress... try to clear the weapon. A process that can take up to an hour before accounting for failured attempts -- as such, hardly anyone ever stressed their standard ACs to that point.)

Edited by Koniving, 18 December 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[InspectorG]

ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW:

3 UAC on any mech that can is generally good.

KDK-3 with 2UAC5+2UAC10 is still strong despite the UAC nerfs. 100 tons and high mounts with an xl400 mitigates the nerfs.

Dire with 3UAC5+2UAC10 will generally win stare-downs. Dire with 2UAC10+1UAC20+4ERML is good but hot and jams become problematic.

Ultraviolent with 8UAC2 is great and jams give you 'forced' cooldowns. 8LB2 is ok but bad past 500m, IMO.

HBK-llC with either 3UAC5 or 4UAC2 is good.

Cyclops and Banshee have UAC5 builds. Maulers and King Crabs as well.


Now as far as your questions:

Most have been addressed well above.

DIFFERENT WEAPON GROUPS - if their setup look crazy they are likely using a MACRO with 500millisecond timing set to avoid ghost heat. It works. Its LEGAL. but in Solo may not make much difference. I dont use Macros in Solo and i do a little better than average in certain dakka builds.

Clan vs IS:

IS is bigger/heavier but Pinpoint Frontload Damage + Quirks

Clans are smaller/lighter multi-shell-damage-over-time + few if any Quirks.

Clans have the advantage in boating Dakka, IS has better Quirked mechs and a better AC20. AC2 depends on tactic/mech. C-UAC20 is pretty garbage unless on a Quirked Summoner or a brawl build. Many Clan Heavies/Assaulta are rocking LB20s instead for the frontloaded damage and the 'fire-twist-fire...'. C-UAC20 requires too much facetime for some and doesnt track well.

Your Hypothetical KDK?

4UAC10 is hot as hell currently if not separated into 2 groups of 2. Requires a little more facetime. Brawling requires good heat management.

2UAC10+2UAC5 is less firepower but you can double-alpha without worries - this lends to better peeks and lets you get under cover sooner. So basically better defense. Brawl time? Mash those buttons like they owe you money!

[Koniving]

<.< What gives 8 ballistics and the tonnage for 8 UAC/2s? I want.

(Might have 212+ mechs, but that doesn't mean I have them all.)

[InspectorG]

Koniving, on 18 December 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

<.< What gives 8 ballistics and the tonnage for 8 UAC/2s? I want.

(Might have 212+ mechs, but that doesn't mean I have them all.)

Ah, my friend. You want the Illustrious OP sleeper the Dire Whale Hero: Ultraviolet.

Or as we say around here: The Ultraviolent. because it brings the Ultraviolence. 16DPS without a double tap out to, what, 900m?

And...

AND...

It looks like a 1990's Trapper Keeper with its Camo.

I Immediately threw $25 at my laptop and regretted it not once.(i can just blame Pugs)

[Koniving]

Pfft.

Pay wall.

....Maybe. *Looks longingly for the day when the Dakka Intensifies.*

[N0D]

Koniving, on 18 December 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

<.< What gives 8 ballistics and the tonnage for 8 UAC/2s? I want.

He's talking about the new Direwolf variant, i think.

Many questions are answered, i see. Yet, does anyone have a fire sequence rotation, mathematically proven to be the best for quad c-uac10, or double c-uac10 plus double c-uac5?

[InspectorG]

N0D, on 18 December 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

He's talking about the new Direwolf variant, i think.

Many questions are answered, i see. Yet, does anyone have a fire sequence rotation, mathematically proven to be the best for quad c-uac10, or double c-uac10 plus double c-uac5?

You want to look for the Keyboard Macro people use. They can give you the numbers to plug into it. Shouldnt be hard to find. If not here, check OutreachHPG over on reddit.

[InspectorG]

N0D, on 18 December 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

c-uac10 plus double c-uac5?

Seriously, on a KDK-3 you dont need the Macro.

During peeks, longer range trades: peek, double-tap, then get back under cover. Use those high mounts.

Brawls or enemy is out of position: mash those buttons like like its a GameCube Controller. Literally, mash the hell out of it.

[Koniving]

Don't honestly need a macro regardless.
It's there for fun, as any macro setup that does anything will slow down your potential firing rate and damage output. The only sensible reason to use one is to slow down your rate of fire in order to reduce heat (as you cannot time double taps to avoid jams).

There's also the macros that play things... When Johnny Comes Marching Home, and the Super Mario Bros. level 1-2 theme are the best in my opinion.
Nothing like an AC pattern that goes:

Edited by Koniving, 18 December 2016 - 11:39 AM.

[Void Angel]

You do lose dps on your initial round of firings with a macro, unless you're just using all of them together. The only reason I can think of for a chain fire macro is the avoidance of Heat Scale penalties, or trying for constant cockpit shake.

A macro might also be advisable to avoid excessive UAC jams. I've noticed a number of first-round jams on my UACs over the years, and they seem to happen when I'm clicking my fire buttons like a crack-addled ferret. My hypothesis is that something in the code allows the game to check for jams when it hasn't actually shot a round. Possibly related to connection instability; there's a very slight delay before which any UAC can fire again, and if my clicking is causing my client to ask the server to fire in some kind of gap before it's checked to see if the UAC can fire, that might account for it.

There's permutations of possibility along that route; however, though I seem to have a better jam rate if I rhythmically doubleclick every time I fire in ultra mode, I haven't gone through the rigamarole necessary to test any of it out, so it's little more than a guess at this point.

[N0D]

Looks like opinions have been divided into two groups on if it is possible to jam on the first shot or not... how curious. I thought that was the question with an answer somewhere more on the obvious side . More over, no one is absolutely definite about how much time it is needed between two shots of two otherwise ghostheating weapon groups (let's say, of c-uac/10's) for them not to ghostheat. Strange. I myself stated "0,5 second" only as a sort of a placeholder. Even more strange that if i've interpreted Leone correctly, immediate doubleshots do not proc ghostheat with first shots of same group, despite adding standard heat per shot. What i mean is... two weapon fired twice right away = 4 shots, and no ghostheat? Isn't it like 4 same weapons fired once in an almost same moment of time? Which is definitely a subject to ghostheat.

Btw, i just thought of a quad uac of same caliber fire sequence, which is better then one i posted in first post's example.
If it is 4*c-uac/10, then:
Two groups of two weapons;
1.LMB, pause 0,5 sec
2.RMB, pause 0,667 sec
3.LMB, pause 0,667 sec
4.RMB, pause 0,667 sec
Let me elaborate on this. First pause is 0,5 sec because it's the least amount of time possible to not gain a ghostheat penalty (if it is less then 0,5 sec please do tell me). After that, second group is fired, so that its cooldown starts and resets asap. This way overall dps should be the highest. As for pause intervals after this... c-uac/10 has a cooldown of 2,5 seconds, 0,5 of which were spent between p.1 and 2. To keep swallowing own heat and shaking enemy at a somewhat steady rate, one should spread 2 doubleshots (thus 3 pause intervals) inbetween the remaining 2 seconds evenly. 2/3=0,667(rounded up at a thousands of a second for obvious reason). That's it. This was a rotation for a prolonged "staredown". For panic "NUKE IT WITH EVERYTHING WE'VE GOT!!!" burst-situation there's always "LMB+immediateLMBagain;0,5sec;RMB+immediateRMBagain;torsotwist away".

Should this work, i wonder?

[Koniving]

I skipped that question.

Actual time needed to avoid ghost heat is identical for all weapon systems:
0.5 seconds.
Remember for all weapons that fire salvos or bursts, the timer starts immediately and ignores the actual shots fired after the fact.
(Cooldown does the opposite, it refuses to begin until the burst or salvos are done).

First shot jams were a thing for about 4 years. Comes not from the actual first shot but clicking spammery, as the one guy said "clicking like a crack addled"...yeah. If they fixed it, good on them. I don't really know because to be honest I stopped using UACs quite some time ago in favor of the PPFLD of Clan LBX at modest ranges.

Why spam bullets and risk jams, when it can be one bullet with a COLDER gun!?

UAC/20 and LB-20x.

And the macro should work.
Doesn't sound as fun as this...

But it should work.

Edited by Koniving, 19 December 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[N0D]

Koniving, there's reasons why uac20 and c-lb20x (i assume that it was clan lbx, because there is no IS lbx20) aren't, i believe, that much popular. These guns are way too niche. Your understanding of "modest ranges" (270 for ac20 and 360 for lb20x at which point it spreads noticably) is waaay too forgiving. Only the biggest and thus slowest mechs can equip them, and i daresay that space and weight used to equip them could be used for better dps, and maybe even burst damage setups. At better ranges. Especially true if respective omnipods have multiple ballistic hardpoints instead of a single one with a good empty slots space.
"Why spam bullets and risk jams, when it can be one bullet with a COLDER gun!?"
Because, range. And, sometimes, ammo/t. Your typical assault mech, capable of equipping those, is SLOW. When he'll finally crawl into his preferred range, he'll be battered all over. More then that, on the way there, you'll have a bit harder time targeting fast lights in it, inevitably missing some shots. c-lb20x has 7 shells per ton of ammo, so every shot made counts heavily. Also, even perfect shot is an overkill on an almost dead light mech, however more times then not, you must do it and run through some of your scarce ammo even before facing the real threat - other assaults.

[Koniving]

The example just showed the guns used.

I prefer the LB-10xs, which still gives you just shy of 400 meters with a near perfect 'one shot' clusterball before it begins to spread. This depends on the 'Mech as different mechs are entitled to different spread patterns -- and doesn't require quirks though on Mechs that have quirks for it... the quirks are there because they got the crap-end of the 45 or so unique spread patterns.

The Clan LB-10x is also colder than Clan UAC/10 for on even just a single use.

Clan LB-5x and LB-2x are instead just a single slot smaller rather than colder.... for some reason.

Side note: Yes, every shot does count.
That video had a single ton per weapon, I had two weapons. If not for the twin demo shots where I showed that the LB-20x was giving me single 'ball' shots of PPFLD instead of a 'spread'...
I would have had two kills easily and basically wiped out the entire enemy force. I'm certain you saw how well I was able to land those shots, and for it to literally be nothing but CT damage... despite the fact my mouse sensitivity is 1.0 (which so many call heresy).

What you're worried about is this scenario (skip to 3 minutes for the first kill, and soon after another kill and a few near kills... where I'm ready to make another and then... click. The reason this issue happened however is because the Mech I chose has an insane amount of tonnage in heatsinks that can't be changed.)


Now picture either of these setups supported by other non-ammo weapons. Or having gone a size smaller on the 2-5-10-20 scale.

And while 20s aren't that favorable (again I prefer 10s, 20s just happen to be what were used in those videos), consider this:
The only weapon system in the Clan arsenal that can instantly kill Every Target In The Game... is twin LB-20x. Just go for the cockpit at 290 meters or less (otherwise spread takes hold)

The only weapon in the IS arsenal that can do the same are twin AC/20s, with a strict limit of 270 meters without quirks.

You're worried about the 7 per ton ammo limit and throwing it on assaults?
<.< Here's 35 tons totting the MUCH HEAVIER AC/20 (IS) which the IS 20 is 2 tons heavier than the Clan, with 3 tons of ammo. Backed up with a single small laser, and still totting some jumpjets!

7 shot per ton worries? Pfft! "Pro-skillz" while just messing around.

Don't "dedicate" everything to just one or two guns. You'll find things to be far more worth while if you have a mixture that can handle any situation you come across, so you won't be stuck in those 'niches' that meta loves to trap people in (so you'll be easier for them to kill when you actually follow their worthless advice!)
Here's a 65 tonner with LB-10x, AC/5, AC/5, 3 MGs, and twin Flamers topping the team.

Spoiler

Pure stock, no skill tree Hunchback 4G.

Included for fun and nostalgia

In other words: It really depends on the skill set you bring behind it and whether or not you actually bring "Weapons" or a gimmick. Bring weapons. Plural. Many kinds, many types. You never know when you'll need something other than what you've got.
Why are you shoving these things on assaults? Shove it on a heavy, on a medium, or even a light. And stop doing this 'meta' crap, back it up with a non-ammo weapon of some sort! There's no need for a 100% ammunition based weapon setup.

Edited by Koniving, 19 December 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 18 December 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

<.< What gives 8 ballistics and the tonnage for 8 UAC/2s? I want.

(Might have 212+ mechs, but that doesn't mean I have them all.)

Release the Kraken!

http://www.sarna.net...i/Bane_(Kraken)

It has enough tonnage to mount 8 cUAC/2's with 15t of ammo!




Kraken

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 19 December 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

The artist clearly had zero understanding of physics...
I recall facing a Kraken in Megamek; PTC had one with 6 or 8 LRM-20s with Artemis.

Nothing could stop it. Even ECM, it laughed in the face of it and it obliterated everything on the map at a range of 660 meters.

Levelled the entire force of two teams with 4 mechs and several vehicles each, with a single Kraken. We only nailed a single shot on him.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 19 December 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

The artist clearly had zero understanding of physics...
I recall facing a Kraken in Megamek; PTC had one with 6 or 8 LRM-20s with Artemis.

Nothing could stop it. Even ECM, it laughed in the face of it and it obliterated everything on the map at a range of 660 meters.

Levelled the entire force of two teams with 4 mechs and several vehicles each, with a single Kraken. We only nailed a single shot on him.

Try using a pair of maulers with C3 slaves and AP ammo quad AC/2's, with a very, very fast c3 Slaved light and what ever C-3 master mech you want... that lance will do bad, bad things to the Kraken....