77 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Snowbluff, on 18 December 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

I do agree that laser spread, but that last 10 damage on the PPFLD is, very specifically, not PPFLD.

Now, my real question is "if 5 ERLL can't be used at the same time according to this chart, why do people equip them?" I mean, I own a banshee 3M, but I've never put 5 ERLL. I don't faction play either. Do people just NOT alpha or is the ghost heat too high?

I mean, I don't know how good of a comparison this is when only 3 of those lasers are firing. Even with clan weight reductions, that few number of lasers is well below that tonnage.

LL duration is (usually) 1.0 seconds. The most you can fire is 3 before you have to dodge ghost heat. Dodging ghost heat means fire 3 LL, wait 0.5 seconds (plus a little lee-way), and fire the other 2 LL. So the entire burn time for 5 LL is generally just over 1.5 seconds, which is longer than any clan laservomit burn duration other then the cERLL itself, which is for an extreme range bracket anyways and typically disregarded.

The chart you saw in this thread was "5LL, 1.12 seconds, dodging ghost heat, 10% range quirk". Dodging ghost heat meaning the total burn time is about 1.50 seconds, but held for only 1.12 seconds (to equal the duration of the cLPL), only roughly 75% of the IS LL damage gets through before the clan mech is done dealing its damage. (probably more like 85% i think, but I didn't do the maths for that yet, probably a differential of less than 5 damage.)

Now of course the 5LL build can alpha, but that rockets you to something like 70% heat on most mechs (don't quote me on that). So yeah, it can out trade Clans when outside of its own optimal range, but how often are you fighting outside of ~650 meters where you wouldn't have brought ERLL anyways? Plus, if you're trading outside of LL optimal, you'll lose trades against any clan mechs that brought PPFLD or cERLL. So generally people like to fight at optimal range itself, which in the case of the IS LL, the clan alternatives will usually win.

Now, I was comparing 5 LL on my charts. But you mentioned 5 ERLL, which would be a burn duration of 1.75 seconds, accounting for ghost heat. (or about 1.63 seconds if the IS mech has a 10% duration quirk.) This competes more at the far reaches of the clan PPFLD meta, where I think they are both fairly well balanced in cases of quirked IS mechs that have good geometry/hardpoints, and also at a range where the targeting-computer'd cERLL is a viable alternative. Not of this is really useful outside of competitive play though, and the occasional niche role for a match on Boreal Vault. So generally I don't talk about ERLL or cERLL.

[radiv]

Does is mechs have to stand out in the open like a ******* to avoid ghost heat? Or is there any other reason the guy above is adding wait time to burn duration?

[Jehofi]

radiv, on 19 December 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

Does is mechs have to stand out in the open like a ******* to avoid ghost heat? Or is there any other reason the guy above is adding wait time to burn duration?

Firing 3LL at 1s burn
Firing 2LL 0.5s staggered at 1s burn
This gives you a 1.5s burn for 5 LL avoiding ghost heat!

Here is a nice picture for you:

3LL <BBBBBBBBBB>
2LL <_____BBBBBBBBBB>

To get the maximum damage you need to stay on target for the whole 1.5s. That means no hiding, no twisting, just staring!

BTW who do you propose to hide and reemerge in 0.5s?

Edited by Jehofi, 19 December 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Well I have to say that for the last few days, I played a little on the IS side, and yes, the clans pick us apart with LL's..

One match on Boreal Vault, we could literally not get through the door cose' we would get LL sniped..

I find playing FW with the IS side a real effort..

When I play my beloved clans however... oh, I love it

I have to add though.. that lately, the game must have some new players, cose' last time I dropped as clan.. we literally had 4-5 players on Boreal that were shooting at THE DOOR, not the gens.. hoping it would open..

They had no clue what to do.. it was one of the most frustrating matches ever, even after we told them shooting the doors does nothing..

Edited by Vellron2005, 19 December 2016 - 02:29 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

FupDup, on 18 December 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

Lol again.

Lurms in general have serious problems in general with being reliant on the opponent making mistakes, and range modules don't even help them. LRMs almost never make it to their full listed range of 1000 meters. Getting past even 600 meters is rare since the missiles fly slowly enough that the red team can break LOS and thus break the lock, causing the missiles to miss.

Next thing you'll tell me is that LBX range modules are useful.

You've entirely missed the point, considering the thread was about a complaint over IS weapon ranges vs Clan.
LBX range modules are inherently flawed as the weapon is a shotgun... and while you can still do damage at range with a shotgun, it's entirely inaccurate by it's very nature.

LRM's on the other hand, especially when paired properly with range modules, and assisting equipment such as BAP, TAG, and NARC, are inherently more accurate than LBX. compairing the two are frankly like apples and oranges, outside of being fruit, there's very little to compare, likewise compairing lbx and lrm's outside of them being weapons systems, there's very little to compare.

You really are proving yourself to be quite the fool.

[FupDup]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 19 December 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

You've entirely missed the point, considering the thread was about a complaint over IS weapon ranges vs Clan.
LBX range modules are inherently flawed as the weapon is a shotgun... and while you can still do damage at range with a shotgun, it's entirely inaccurate by it's very nature.

LRM's on the other hand, especially when paired properly with range modules, and assisting equipment such as BAP, TAG, and NARC, are inherently more accurate than LBX. compairing the two are frankly like apples and oranges, outside of being fruit, there's very little to compare, likewise compairing lbx and lrm's outside of them being weapons systems, there's very little to compare.

You really are proving yourself to be quite the fool.

Theoretically more accurate, but in practice the enemy often has plenty of time to either break LOS or find a tall piece of cover to block the missiles. They might even have a bit of AMS with them.

As range between you and the target increases, the chances of the missiles reaching their destination decreases because of slow velocity and the requirement to keep a constant lock. By the time you reach 1000 meters, your chances of hitting them are pretty slim unless the red team is making huge mistakes (in which case you could beat them with anything). Increasing your max range to 1100 meters will not help since you're rarely going to even hit the target at that distance to begin with.

Only "fools" get killed by LRMs consistently.

[Jerry Beard]

Antares102, on 18 December 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Dont bring LRM
Who stomped you?
A 12 man team?
A small competitive team?
If its either you have to bring effecient mechs yourself.
No LRM will no longer do, you have to bring meta build and know how to use them.

Stop blaming everything on the good damn clan tech.

Dude really?? You see this is my whole point how can folks feel like they can express themselves without tool bags responses? He is expressing his frustration and even gives props and you come at him like that. No wander IS folks think most clanners are 14 yr old non skilled toolbags. You sure sound like one....

[Sjorpha]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 19 December 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

You've entirely missed the point, considering the thread was about a complaint over IS weapon ranges vs Clan.
LBX range modules are inherently flawed as the weapon is a shotgun... and while you can still do damage at range with a shotgun, it's entirely inaccurate by it's very nature.

LRM's on the other hand, especially when paired properly with range modules, and assisting equipment such as BAP, TAG, and NARC, are inherently more accurate than LBX. compairing the two are frankly like apples and oranges, outside of being fruit, there's very little to compare, likewise compairing lbx and lrm's outside of them being weapons systems, there's very little to compare.

You really are proving yourself to be quite the fool.

You can still compare the general game impact/strength of any move/weapon/equipment in a game, and you can still make a call whether they are good enough to bring into matches.

LBX is shaping up a bit, there are a few decent builds with it now. LRMs are actually starting to approach a state of usefulness too. So these are two weapons that were completely useless and are now approaching being average, they are also both spread damage weapons with long range on paper but short effective range in practice. Range modules are worthless for both of them since none of them do anything useful at long ranges.

SO actually LBX and LRM has a lot in common.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 December 2016 - 04:44 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Sjorpha, on 19 December 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

You can still compare the general game impact/strength of any move/weapon/equipment in a game, and you can still make a call whether they are good enough to bring into matches.

LBX is shaping up a bit, there are a few decent builds with it now. LRMs are actually starting to approach a state of usefulness too. So these are two weapons that were completely useless and are now approaching being average, they are also both spread damage weapons with long range on paper but short effective range in practice. Range modules are worthless for both of them since none of them do anything useful at long ranges.

SO actually LBX and LRM has a lot in common.

LBX: Direct Fire, spread shot, ballistic.
LRM: Indirect fire, lock on, slight spread. Impacted by many various types of additional support equipment.

Both weapons, outside of being, weapons. are quite a bit different. And I've had wonderful results from LRM range modules.

of course this point is entirely moot by next month anyway with the coming skill tree change and removal of quirks.

[Nighthawk513]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 18 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I do want to brag a bit for a moment, though. I managed to drop-call a win on Alpine Skirmish. The Clans immediately started abusing their extreme energy range advantage, so we just turtled up in the hills near our spawn and refused to engage. Eventually they got impatient and close up. We killed a couple and got the edge on kills, then fell back to our LZ walls. It being Skirmish, they had to go for kills or lose to the timer, so it forced them into a CQB while they were all specced for extreme range dominance. We blew them out on kills. It wouldn't have worked with any other game mode, but for once the Skirmish rules actually played to our advantage.

Well done.
If you know your opponent is going to win a fight under certain circumstances, you avoid them. Easy to do? No. But doable in most situations.
That's why clans tends to bring ridiculous range, as we really don't want to get within range of IS laser vomit, since most of the mechs that do laser vomit well are also heavily quirked for durability, and tend to focus damage better than clans do at that range, making them something we would rather not deal with... If we do have to deal with them, it is at about 200 meters with as many brawling weapons as we can bring to bear...

[Racerxintegra2k]

I think we can all agree, if the particular map we are on is large with open long lines of sight the clans dominate. When the map is either small or has sufficient cover to cross the map Innersphere has a chance to win. This my friends is not balance. Look at the faction play map, has the Inner Sphere even won a planet ??

To those that say load your IS mech up with ERLL that's 2 crit slots and 5 tons to be able to marginally be effective at range.

When the distance is closed you get wrecked though. the 2 LPL and 4-6 ERML combo is fantastic at just about every role.

The only counter I've seen to that clan laser vomit build was the IS UAC5 dakka builds. The heat and jam duration nerfs though killed the way those builds were effective. Being able to lay down massive cover fire as you move in close was about the only hope we had. Now we jam and overheat before we can get there.

*shrugs* I don't think i'm out of line by saying Clan Tech is superior and Clan Pilots use it effectivly to dominate, its a pretty obvious statement. The slow but constant beatings will just zap the player base of any joy of playing Inner Sphere mechs if nothing is done.

Edited by Racerxintegra2k, 19 December 2016 - 05:21 AM.

[Felbombling]

Mystere, on 18 December 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

Then I suggest you and everyone else demand that PGI make all Mechs, weapons, and equipment 100% identical to each other and just "differentiate" between them via different skins, visual, and sound effects. There, 100% balance achieved. Lore is not important anyway in what was billed as "A BattleTech Game".

A little over-the-top reaction to my post, but whatever floats your boat, Mystere.

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 18 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Ya really, don't take away any self respect that Clan players have remaining after they chose easy mode.

And yet merc units transferred in droves to the IS side when they were buffed and for a time considered better than the Clans.

StaggerCheck, on 19 December 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

A little over-the-top reaction to my post, but whatever floats your boat, Mystere.

Well, we are now in the age of The Donald, and he showed everyone how to do things.

Edited by Mystere, 19 December 2016 - 08:01 AM.

[Mystere]

Navid A1, on 18 December 2016 - 10:46 PM, said:

You know where the problem is?

People try to out-brawl the hardcore brawlers, fail, and then complain.
Other people try to out-range the hardcore snipers, fail, and then complain.

Some rare people make the enemy fight at their own terms by well drop/build/deck coordination.

Some mech builds are known to be unbeatable in certain play-styles. So... maybe don't try to win over them at their own game?!

Isn't it funny how people insist on fighting someone/something in their own game and then complain when they prove to be unsuccessful. <smh>

[Johnny Z]

.

Edited by Johnny Z, 19 December 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[BattleBunny]

PGi released several powerful clan mechs in a row, topping it off with the new marauder.

Straight after the last release they revive CW or FW or whatever it is called now.

offcource all the mercs are clans now, they want to play their new mechs. Offcource all the loyalist are stuck on IS side now with inferior mechs and weapons.

What else did PGI expect to happen? ah wait, they dont think about stuff.

[C E Dwyer]

BattleBunny, on 19 December 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

PGi released several powerful clan mechs in a row, topping it off with the new marauder.

Straight after the last release they revive CW or FW or whatever it is called now.

offcource all the mercs are clans now, they want to play their new mechs. Offcource all the loyalist are stuck on IS side now with inferior mechs and weapons.

What else did PGI expect to happen? ah wait, they dont think about stuff.

Pretty much this, they don't think.

They made the Kodiak and didn't think that making non canon builds the KDK-3 and stuffing all the weapons around the ears wasn't going to effect balance, if they had only give it the canon number of ballistic hard points it wouldn't have caused such a **** storm, after having done something that utterly stupid they then compound it and make it worse by shoving the second HP even higher than the first, the impact it had on the game would have been less if the second ST ballistic hard point had been waist level, while it wouldn't have effected the guass ERPPC build it's the four dakka that causes the hate.

The Night gyr again they put the Hard points higher than any version created before, which were slightly lower than cockpit height, to the same level as.

The group of people that were the one thing the whole community could point at, despite what P.G.I have done, and say they do great work, have over the last year been the ones most responsible for ruining the games balance

[BattleBunny]

Its pretty disgusting if you think about it.
Its almost like they intentionally set up the entire IS side to be stomped by the merc teams.

Most of the maps are now designed for ranged fights, which clans do better. The meta was already gauss/ppc which the clans do better. The latest new chassis (kodiak, night gyr, marauder) are all top notch and have fantastic hardpoints. The IS mechs that had range quirks that could change the tide have been nerfed to 10% range boost max. Add some IS XL explosions and the fact all mercs will go clans to play their new mechs and it is the absolute worst time ever to revive CW / FW.

And when the stomping happens PGI are surprised and up the IS tonnage , as if thats supposed to fix anything.
It just means clans make more money....