102 replies to this topic

[S C A R]

Guys,

Whilst clan mech do enjoy a slight range benefit and better XL engines this is what happened when we decided to go and play IS.

http://imgur.com/a/HBvsD

So whenever you are complaining about imbalance between clans and IS, think first abour your personal ability to play this game. The fact that you are dropping solo doesn't help you either. If you want to win, find a unit, join it and play as a group.

[Bud Crue]

I still believe that the clans have a few outlier mechs that are simply superior to anything that the IS has. That is just mathametical comparison and observation. That being said, I also believe that the OP is absolutely correct. A good team can play either side and dominate, because they are good. EVIL is not merely good, but one of the best CW teams. To me the problem of "balance" is not primarily one of tech base or mech selection but of the ability to do exactly what EVIL has done...to go where they desire. The majority of people playing this mode are mercs and as long as they can all move (and often this is what has happened...damn near ALL of them move seemingly together), for whatever reason, to either side of the tech; then balance will always...ALWAYS...be in a state of flux and require PGI to do things like screw with quirks, mess with drop deck tonnage, or whatever in order to lure units to where the advantages are at. An expert team like EVIL may not need those advantages, but most teams know one when they see it and they would be stupid (or a loyalist...same thing) not to move to take fullest advantage of it.

[Herpes Type 9]

So basically you farmed Zito's mom

[S C A R]

Bud Crue, but why is that we don't have such a high W/L ratio playing for Clans. If what you say is correct then I am missing something.

[Count Zero 74]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

So whenever you are complaining about imbalance between clans and IS, think first abour your personal ability to play this game. The fact that you are dropping solo doesn't help you either. If you want to win, find a unit, join it and play as a group.

That's what I'm trying to to say to these IS crybabies for days now but they don't get it. Don't waist your time S C A R.

[Bud Crue]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Bud Crue, but why is that we don't have such a high W/L ratio playing for Clans. If what you say is correct then I am missing something.

In what sense? Your ability to move about is self evident. My contention that balance is pretty good but for a few outliers? I have no idea if those mechs even apply to you and yours when you run clan so it may not even be an issue.

[S C A R]

Bud Crue, on 18 December 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

In what sense? Your ability to move about is self evident. My contention that balance is pretty good but for a few outliers? I have no idea if those mechs even apply to you and yours when you run clan so it may not even be an issue.

Well, Bud Crue, we play all sort of mechs. Locusts, Oxides, Cicadas, Grasshoppers, Blacknights, King Crabs, Maulers, Centurions. Someone is even brining Archers with lurms)).

[Bud Crue]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Well, Bud Crue, we play all sort of mechs. Locusts, Oxides, Cicadas, Grasshoppers, Blacknights, King Crabs, Maulers, Centurions. Someone is even brining Archers with lurms)).

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Bud Crue, but why is that we don't have such a high W/L ratio playing for Clans. If what you say is correct then I am missing something.

I don't know what you are getting at. I have stated that I see the "balance" problem being one of mass numbers of merc players being able to follow the advantages provided by PGI's hamfisted attempts to address the perceived imbalance of tech/mechs. My perception is that tech/mech balance is pretty good but for outliers. It is the population imbalance caused by mercs moving to and fro that increases the perception that the tech/mech imbalance is far greater than it actually is.

A unit like EVIL can probably win quite handily running whatever you want. But if you and others like you (great teams comprised of great players) all move to the clans en mass the perception that "IS mechs suck" is going to be enhanced fo a lot of folks. Similarly if PGI suddenly ups tonnage for IS and drops it for clans, then all of a sudden you and yours move to the IS en mass and start dominating there, then there is likely to be a perception created that "Clan mechs suck".

In short if the best players go where there are advantages and dominate, is it a surprise that others who may not be the best follow for the same reason? And when that occurs (see Jade Falcon domination of phase 3) what is the result of that? Population imbalance and perceived side imbalance, regardless of one side having a few mechs that may or may not be OP.

That's just my opinion.

Edited by Bud Crue, 18 December 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Alteran]

Bud Crue, on 18 December 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

I don't know what you are getting at. I have stated that I see the "balance" problem being one of mass numbers of merc players being able to follow the advantages provided by PGI's hamfisted attempts to address the perceived imbalance of tech/mechs. My perception is that tech/mech balance is pretty good but for outliers. It is the population imbalance caused by mercs moving to and fro that increases the perception that the tech/mech imbalance is far greater than it actually is.

A unit like EVIL can probably win quite handily running whatever you want. But if you and others like you (great teams comprised of great players) all move to the clans en mass the perception that "IS mechs suck" is going to be enhanced fo a lot of folks. Similarly if PGI suddenly ups tonnage for IS and drops it for clans, then all of a sudden you and yours move to the IS en mass and start dominating there, then there is likely to be a perception created that "Clan mechs suck".

In short if the best players go where there are advantages and dominate, is it a surprise that others who may not be the best follow for the same reason? And when that occurs (see Jade Falcon domination of phase 3) what is the result of that? Population imbalance and perceived side imbalance, regardless of one side having a few mechs that may or may not be OP.

That's just my opinion.

So is this really a Tech or tonnage problem? Because from this post, I view it as good units can and will play to whatever advantages there are, on either side of the Tech. As such, those good units, using whichever Tech they are playing will dominate the map?

Because if that is really what you are saying, then there is no balancing to do. PGI can't balance it. You're then talking about good players dominating a field of battle with sub-par players.

I've played both sides of the Tech. IMO only... Clan mechs are fast glass cannons. IS mechs are slow tanks with shorter ranges. People talking about the range advantages, yes there are some maps where this can really be an issue. On others, most engagements are happening in the <500m range.

So where is this discussion going? The same as it did in 2.0 and 3.0 about MS dominating? Merc's being OP?

[Appogee]

Large coordinated teams will win every time.

EVIL is a very good team. It's not surprising that you win, regardless of which side you play.

If EVIL in IS Mechs could play EVIL in Clan Mechs, which EVIL do you think would win?

My experience of playing FP as IS since 4.1 is that every match was lost because my team of 5 or 6 Hackworth Rangers needed to carry 5 relatively clueless IS who weren't in units. Our Clan opponents were larger, organised groups, and only one of two unitless players.

So I concluded the issue isn't so much IS vs Clan Mechs, or drop tonnage. It's a predominance of inexperienced PUGs on the IS side. Or at least, it was in the 10 drops I had, til I finally did the obvious thing and gave up.

Now I am unitless and factionless. I'll spend a week playing FP Clan soloist and see if my experience is any different.

Edited by Appogee, 18 December 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Alteran, on 18 December 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

So is this really a Tech or tonnage problem? Because from this post, I view it as good units can and will play to whatever advantages there are, on either side of the Tech. As such, those good units, using whichever Tech they are playing will dominate the map?

Because if that is really what you are saying, then there is no balancing to do. PGI can't balance it. You're then talking about good players dominating a field of battle with sub-par players.

I've played both sides of the Tech. IMO only... Clan mechs are fast glass cannons. IS mechs are slow tanks with shorter ranges. People talking about the range advantages, yes there are some maps where this can really be an issue. On others, most engagements are happening in the <500m range.

So where is this discussion going? The same as it did in 2.0 and 3.0 about MS dominating? Merc's being OP?

Yes for the most part. Mercs are the balance problem.
But as to the solution, they most certainly can balance it: significantly limit the abilities of mercs to go where they please, when they please. Otherwise it is inevitable that mercs...the majority of which are the oldest and best players in the game...will continue to make which ever side they choose to go to perceptibly "OP". When they all do it at the same time that perception is made even worse.

Now think of how a brand new player coming into the mode will react to this historical reality....encouraged to keep playing?

[Leone]

Well, when I dropped against them inna clan pug, it was totally a cohesion issue that lost us the first wave, not the tech. And as goes the first wave, do follows the rest, as usual However, looking at those stats, if I was one to agree with base numbers, as some of the other threads've tried arguing, (and I'm not) I'd say IS tech looks more powerful since they've a better ratio on the IS side. If you know how to use it (where-in lies the problem.)

Ya know, if we wanna argue what the raw numbers tell us.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 18 December 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Appogee, on 18 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

If EVIL in IS Mechs could play EVIL in Clan Mechs, which EVIL do you think would win?

This is the relevant question for balancing. Same skill, same tonnage, optimal loadouts, clan vs IS. Who wins more matches over time?

[Monkey Lover]

Ya comp level players stop worrying about it. Everyne else just stop playing.


Even if they balance this it's still 1 bucket and not work putting that much time into.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 18 December 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

Sjorpha, on 18 December 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

This is the relevant question for balancing. Same skill, same tonnage, optimal loadouts, clan vs IS. Who wins more matches over time?

50/50 honest opinion. Some like myself are way happier in IS mechs while others hate them and vise verse.

[Imperius]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Guys,

Whilst clan mech do enjoy a slight range benefit and better XL engines this is what happened when we decided to go and play IS.

http://imgur.com/a/HBvsD

So whenever you are complaining about imbalance between clans and IS, think first abour your personal ability to play this game. The fact that you are dropping solo doesn't help you either. If you want to win, find a unit, join it and play as a group.

Reported for having common sense!

Seriously though...

Team play is bad in a team game mmmmmmkayyyyy!

[Alteran]

Bud Crue, on 18 December 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Yes for the most part. Mercs are the balance problem.
But as to the solution, they most certainly can balance it: significantly limit the abilities of mercs to go where they please, when they please. Otherwise it is inevitable that mercs...the majority of which are the oldest and best players in the game...will continue to make which ever side they choose to go to perceptibly "OP". When they all do it at the same time that perception is made even worse.

Now think of how a brand new player coming into the mode will react to this historical reality....encouraged to keep playing?

Again, right back to discussions that were had and played out in 2.0 and 3.0 about MS. At that time I was a RP - Wolf Clan loyalist, played nothing but Wolf Loyalist eventually going to EK as Wolf Clan loyalist unit. I hated how Merc's could run around from whatever faction they wanted to. I hated that RP/Lore aspect was being trashed. Then after a year of fighting 'the good fight' I saw the light.

CW/FW/FP is not an BT-RP event for MWO. It is a cash machine for selling mechs. I accepted that fact and I believe a good many in EK saw it too and we switched up so we could go to the faction with the best fights.

So if the reality of FP is really that good players are merging into good units, then what is the answer? We're right back to the discussions of the last year and a bit.....

Extend contracts to 2, 3 or 4 weeks? Limit unit sizes to 50, 100, 150 players? Limit Merc's to playing for IS only?

Because back at that time, the threads were taking on the fashion of forcing Merc's to pick one faction over the other. Essentially eliminating Merc's and making them become Loyalists, because we want them to play for our faction and our faction only.....

New players, well look at some of the threads here and chat in-game. "This is why I quit FP before: Clans are getting killed by IS mechs, IS mechs are 'crud' compared to Clan mechs, I can't play the tech I wanna play......"

All the same stuff, just in 4.0.

There is nothing to balance if all this comes down to is Skill of players. PGI can't balance a guy running into a tank battle with a combat butter knife.

Edited by Alteran, 18 December 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[_Comrade_]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Guys,

Whilst clan mech do enjoy a slight range benefit and better XL engines this is what happened when we decided to go and play IS.

http://imgur.com/a/HBvsD

So whenever you are complaining about imbalance between clans and IS, think first abour your personal ability to play this game. The fact that you are dropping solo doesn't help you either. If you want to win, find a unit, join it and play as a group.

I drop solo as clan all the time (only as clan as I am a JF loyalist), and I'm not in a unit and win 86% of the time now and in most of these matches their was very little coms or target calling, we were a herd of cats pretty much and yet we still beat the IS team. Against Pug IS...PUG Clan will always win our mechs are just better. In fact the only thing I lost today was a match in which I came across a 12 man PHL

Its mostly long range is OP and because Clan has the long range advantage and has better meta builds. The maps pretty much encourage long range sniping. Clans easily win, Clans are OP, imbalance is real

Edited by Grimwill, 18 December 2016 - 09:58 AM.

[Jman5]

S C A R, on 18 December 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Guys,

Whilst clan mech do enjoy a slight range benefit and better XL engines this is what happened when we decided to go and play IS.

http://imgur.com/a/HBvsD

So whenever you are complaining about imbalance between clans and IS, think first abour your personal ability to play this game. The fact that you are dropping solo doesn't help you either. If you want to win, find a unit, join it and play as a group.

I think the balance issue is a bit of a red herring. What I think is worth recognizing is that Clans have a history of consistently winning and pushing forward in FP with very few exceptions. You can have perfect theoretical balance, you can even have a situation where IS is overpowered, and still have a problem.

I didn't check the final outcome, but from what I saw last night, it looked like you and a couple other units fighting for IS were only able to fight the planet to a draw.

Why is it that Clans have significantly more tier 1 unit groups than the IS? What is it that is drawing the teams that win a lot over to the Clans rather than the Inner Sphere?

Saying things like you just have to organize is like telling people they just have to get good. It doesn't help at the population levels.

So what can PGI do to make the successful units with high winrates split up more evenly?

Edited by Jman5, 18 December 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[Arend]

Jman5, on 18 December 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Why is it that Clans have significantly more tier 1 unit groups than the IS? What is it that is drawing the teams that win a lot over to the Clans rather than the Inner Sphere?

Well good Players usually use the best Mechs available, Clan Mechs are superior to IS Mechs, therefore most good Players/Units play Clan, simple as that!