125 replies to this topic

[Fobhopper]

mogs01gt, on 27 December 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

and by the team you get into range to use those weapons, most of your team is gone because you've been hiding in the back instead of using those high mounted energy hard points.

Depends on the map and which KGC I am bringing to the fight. If its HPG and Veridian bog, I am actually going to get close enough to the enemy team with plenty of cover to get me to the fight and be at the front line. Even on canyon and forest colony, if I am in my brawler build, I am going to try to flank so that way I can get to the enemy using cover without walking through 800m of laser and ppc vomit so I can bring my weapons to bear.

Now if I am on my Clanbuster (dual gauss, 2 LPL) or my missile boat (3 lrm20+a, 4 machine guns, 3 medium lasers) I am going to be midrange, then thats a different story. Depending on the situation and map, I may still end up on the front line. I am not afraid to get in close quarters with any mech, I just may not have the optimal load out to deal with every situation. Something clan tech doesnt have an issue with (especially when it comes to LRM's). Different maps, different loadouts require different strategies to engage.

2-3 energy hard points isnt going to put fear in anyone, or get anyone to back off. Even if you put 3 ERPPC's in that side torso, thats not going to be a seriously threat to anyone with an above-potatoe intelligence. The KGC is known for either quad uac5, dual gauss or dual ac20, not for its easily destroyable side torso with high energy slots.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

2-3 energy hard points isnt going to put fear in anyone, or get anyone to back off. Even if you put 3 ERPPC's in that side torso, thats not going to be a seriously threat to anyone with an above-potatoe intelligence.

Bolded the important part, because your "flanking" King Crab isn't a threat to a team with above-potato intelligence either because either it will get mobbed for being isolated without doing much return damage, or takes to long to flank and the rest of your team gets destroyed for being one assault down.

There is a reason flanking assaults are jokes and it is because they simply don't have the speed, not even the Spirit Bear does. They are best when used as an anchor for the main body, taking up strong defensive positions or supporting a push (assaults are not meant to spearhead a push either).

[Snazzy Dragon]

Koniving, on 27 December 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

Summoner brawler build....?

Do tell.

Th build has been posted but it's easily one of the best brawlers for clan because of artimes, the plethora of ammo and jumpjets, humanoid geometry and being incredibly hard to strip; even if you take a torso they'll still have 2 or 3 more SRM6+A racks on the other side.

[mogs01gt]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Bolded the important part, because your "flanking" King Crab isn't a threat to a team with above-potato intelligence either because either it will get mobbed for being isolated without doing much return damage, or takes to long to flank and the rest of your team gets destroyed for being one assault down.

There is a reason flanking assaults are jokes and it is because they simply don't have the speed, not even the Spirit Bear does. They are best when used as an anchor for the main body, taking up strong defensive positions or supporting a push (assaults are not meant to spearhead a push either).

Well they cant spearhead unless there are 3 other 100t's to soak up the damage but they should be at least in the "middle".

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 December 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

mogs01gt, on 27 December 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Well they cant spearhead unless there are 3 other 100t's to soak up the damage but they should be at least in the "middle".

Correct, being in the rear is how you get lights feasting on your rear.

[Y E O N N E]

mogs01gt, on 27 December 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Well they cant spearhead unless there are 3 other 100t's to soak up the damage but they should be at least in the "middle".

Lights in first to squirrel, heavies out next to start the charge while firing, Assaults behind them providing main battery (or providing area denial so the enemy can't simply rotate out of the way), mediums keep enemy off-kilter from the flanks and/or surge forward to get into the ranks with brawl firepower.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Lights in first to squirrel get instagibbed by double gauss PPC, heavies out next to start the charge while firing focus firing the kodiak 3s while they're on cooldown from light smacking, Assaults behind them providing main battery LRM "support" (or providing area denial so the enemy can't simply rotate out of the way tasty snacks for locusts and cheetahs), mediums keep enemy off-kilter from the flanks and/or surge forward to get into the ranks with brawl firepower wonder what the hell is going on and hope for the best.

Edited for solo queue

[Jack Spade Ward]

I win 80 % in brawler configs.
Specially in scouting mode, i use a Hunchback 4SP, STD engine, 5 SPL and 2 SRM6 w/ Artemis, nothing in the clans can compete with it.
If i want to use lights, i use the Oxide! Best light, EVER! People talk about the cheetah, but it doesent come close. In fact, Cheetahs run away from my oxide once i lock onto them LOL

Come on IS noobs, stop complaining! Clans are winning because most big teams are clans now.
Once they come around to IS, it will be the opposite.

By the way, the clans didnt had a buff on heatsinks, they had an un-nerf on them. Remmember that last December patch (2015) nerfed the clans heatsinks.
Faction warfare in the otherhand, kept on putting the clans winning. Was it because of what?
Big teams!

[maxdest]

Solution starts with xl

First clan xl loss gives an extended non override shutdown (time tbc , 6 secs seems reasonable). This still gives flavour and a bonus for clan, but dramatically reduces survivability.

Next up is to remove the link between engine size and turn speed. Each chassis and maybe variant would have a fixed value for turn speed. This removes half of the bonus of having a larger engine, and there would be a greater trade for both is and clan... more slower speed brawlers.

After that I wait and see if more tweaks needed

Edited by maxdest, 27 December 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[Vxheous]

When outbrawl comments get brought up, they are usually in relation to IS laser vomit vs Clan laser vomit (since those are still the most prevalent builds played in FW). You typically do not want to trade with clans in the 400-600m range, as Clans get full damage out of the CPL/CERML builds while IS can only poke back with LPL (the ML are almost useless at those ranges). That leaves IS with two choices, either close inside 350m, or poke outside 600+m with LL/ERLL builds. If your team is predominantly LPL/ML builds (aka the Stormtrooper deck), you want to push into brawling range, even without dedicated brawling builds, as the LPL/ML build will still outbrawl the CPL/CERML builds inside 350m due to heat efficiency.

Clan dedicated brawl build vs IS dedicated brawl build is going to end up with IS getting wiped.

[Moldur]

Clans have very powerful brawler builds, but yes it is rare to get a random drop with a lot of brawlers. Mid range is always safest if you don't know your teammates.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 27 December 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Clan dedicated brawl build vs IS dedicated brawl build is going to end up with IS getting wiped.

It depends on the weight, IS have the better brawler mediums, lights are a wash, the assaults are slightly in favor of the Clans (unsure on whether the Cyclops will change things up or not yet), and the heavies definitely favor the Clans.

[Vxheous]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

It depends on the weight, IS have the better brawler mediums, lights are a wash, the assaults are slightly in favor of the Clans (unsure on whether the Cyclops will change things up or not yet), and the heavies definitely favor the Clans.

Yeah, that's fair enough

[East Indy]

Obligatory "If one side has large advantages in equipment tonnage, compactness, range, and damage, and the first two can't be changed, the magnitude of bonuses the other side needs will always be problematic."

Somewhat related note: what if Empyreal went Inner Sphere and (per Gman's ratings) play strictly Tier 4 'Mechs in FP for two weeks? I think it would be both entertaining and educational to see skill working to overcome disadvantageous design.

[Fobhopper]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Bolded the important part, because your "flanking" King Crab isn't a threat to a team with above-potato intelligence either because either it will get mobbed for being isolated without doing much return damage, or takes to long to flank and the rest of your team gets destroyed for being one assault down.

There is a reason flanking assaults are jokes and it is because they simply don't have the speed, not even the Spirit Bear does. They are best when used as an anchor for the main body, taking up strong defensive positions or supporting a push (assaults are not meant to spearhead a push either).

Its only a joke when flanking assaults try to 'Rambo" the entire enemy team. On maps where there is no clear or safe avenue of approach to the enemy team when all your weapons are sub 300m range (like canyon, polar highlands, forest colony, you either sit around like a ******* idiot getting poked all game long, or you make lemons out of lemonade. If i am on a brawler build on a very any brawl map, I let my team know, and tell them where I plan on flanking. Then when I make my push, I tell my team on comms to push because a KGC is going to draw a lot of fire and pull attention from the front line. I probably get a kill or two before dying to amassed enemy fire, but usually that breaks the firing line stalemate for the rest of my team to push for the team kill.

Only fools and foolhardy rush the enemy team. But a timely sacrifice can bring about a massive turnaround when done correctly. A KGC or KDK is going to at minimum pull 3 mechs off the firing line if not more to deal with a 100 tonner on their flank. 3 mechs off the firing line makes for a massive hole in a defense that can be easily exploited when you communicate with your team so they know to take advantage of the lapse in fire power. This is a team game, not SOLO WARRIOR ONLINE (much to the chagrin of every player wishing this was another mercenaries game so they can stroke themselves with illusions of grandiose skill). If I am in a brawler build, I can do a hell of a lot more for my team opening up a hole in a defense like that then I would otherwise sitting around half the damn match getting shot to **** waiting for the enemy to close in on me.

[Y E O N N E]

Canyon Network is a power-position map. You can shut-down any brawl attempt by holding a few key points with long-range firepower. You see it again, and again, and again during MWOWC and even heftier MRBC drops whenever one team goes brawl and the other goes Power Positioning.

You will get scouted in your King Crab, and suddenly you will have two Lights and probably a Heavy baring down on you and you will lose. Congratulations, that's 100 tons out the window.

[Fobhopper]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Canyon Network is a power-position map. You can shut-down any brawl attempt by holding a few key points with long-range firepower. You see it again, and again, and again during MWOWC and even heftier MRBC drops whenever one team goes brawl and the other goes Power Positioning.

You will get scouted in your King Crab, and suddenly you will have two Lights and probably a Heavy baring down on you and you will lose. Congratulations, that's 100 tons out the window.

And on average those two lights are going to either be heavily damaged or dead, and that heavy is going to be walking funny after getting several AC20's up its ***.

Either I spend the game getting my *** shot up from 600m+ or I die forcing a fight on my terms.

Edited by Fobhopper, 27 December 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

If i am on a brawler build on a very any brawl map, I let my team know, and tell them where I plan on flanking.

The term flanking when speaking about an assault should never occur, ever. So either you mean spearheading a push for your team, or you are isolating yourself for no good reason. Either way you are doing it wrong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 04:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

And on average those two lights are going to either be heavily damaged or dead, and that heavy is going to be walking funny after getting several AC20's up its ***.

Either I spend the game getting my *** shot up from 600m+ or I die forcing a fight on my terms.

You will land narry a shot on those Lights, because they will be poking you to death from 400 meters away or will be shooting down at you from angles and at speeds you can't respond to.

Go ask any MRBC Div A teams if they'll let you in on some scrims for a night. Even just spectating, your view of the game will be transformed.

[Fobhopper]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

The term flanking when speaking about an assault should never occur, ever.

Well maybe if we could get more people to pilot lights in this game instead of everyone piloting heavies and assaults, it wouldnt be up to 80+ ton mechs to do the work nobody else wants to do.