38 replies to this topic

[Kshahdoo]

I'm a devoted clanner, always have been. It started long before MWO was released, so no wonder I've been playing for clans only. But with all this IS pilots whining about their mechs suckage, I decided to start playin for IS.

My first mech choice turns out to be terrible - Stalker sucks. Not because it's bad, but because I don't use LRMs, and for a laser boat it's too clumsy, mostly because its arms aren't movable enough. Still I somehow manage to stay on 1 k/d ratio (I'm not a good player, tier3 half way to tier2), being totally noobish to IS mechs and gear.

IS LPL is ******* great! I've already fallen in love with it. But I see one big problem: using STD engines makes IS mechs very tough to kill, but not having enough central torso weapon mounts makes this advantage almost useless. What point to survive, if you lose all your weapons? So I think developers should forget about the lore in this case and give IS mechs more central torso weapons.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 22 December 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[kesmai]

Stalker sucks.
Stopped reading there.

[Bombast]

Using a Standard engine lets you survive losing a side torso, a fairly useful skill for a variety of mechs. Far more useful then surviving as a stick with one LPL.

The Stalker is also a pretty nice assault mech. It's no Kodiak, but what is?

[The Basilisk]

kesmai, on 22 December 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Stalker sucks.
Stopped reading there.

Thats a bit harsh dude.
When you are used to timby, Hellbringer or Executioner for Laser vomit the Stalker is hillariously slow and cumbersome with its high laser hardpoints and favorable hitboxes not realy making up for the fact that you are exposed too long to feel good.

Every IS mechs just sucks compared to their clan counterparts in their respective class.

[Bud Crue]

kesmai, on 22 December 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

Stalker sucks.
Stopped reading there.

The Basilisk, on 22 December 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Thats a bit harsh dude.
When you are used to timby, Hellbringer or Executioner for Laser vomit the Stalker is hillariously slow and cumbersome with its high laser hardpoints and favorable hitboxes not realy making up for the fact that you are exposed too long to feel good.

Every IS mechs just sucks compared to their clan counterparts in their respective class.

Yeah, but according to the OP we are just whining about it. To me that is the part that is a bit "harsh".
Here we are "whining" about our "mech suckage" but he is driving what is probably the best STD engine assault available to the IS and yet still asserts that it does suck, despite pointing out those features which it benefits most (std engine and ability to run LPLs effectively). So if THAT mech sucks OP, is it really whining...especially if you appear to agree?

[Kshahdoo]

Bud Crue, on 22 December 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

Yeah, but according to the OP we are just whining about it. To me that is the part that is a bit "harsh".
Here we are "whining" about our "mech suckage" but he is driving what is probably the best STD engine assault available to the IS and yet still asserts that it does suck, despite pointing out those features which it benefits most (std engine and ability to run LPLs effectively). So if THAT mech sucks OP, is it really whining...especially if you appear to agree?

Do you love to LRM?

[Bud Crue]

Kshahdoo, on 22 December 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Do you love to LRM?

No. There is only one Stalker variant with LRM quirks, and even then there are better mechs for LRMing (Pretty baby or even the MX Mauler).

Edit2...wait...are you suggesting that the Stalker is only good if it is running LRMs? If so then your OP is even more biased. I mean If one of the best of our "suckage" IS mechs is only good if it is running LRMs then it makes it even more clear that IS is indeed getting screwed in the balance department, no?

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 December 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Bud Crue, on 22 December 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

No. There is only one Stalker variant with LRM quirks, and even then there are better mechs for LRMing (Pretty baby or even the MX Mauler).

Alright, with Stalker arms aren't movable separately from torso to left and right, it's very difficult to fight even pretty slow mechs, if they start to circle around you. I haven't tried other laser IS assaults yet (but I will, when I have enough money), so I can't say anything about them. But I hope, they have better arms, than Stalker.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 22 December 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Barantor]

Bud Crue, on 22 December 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

No. There is only one Stalker variant with LRM quirks, and even then there are better mechs for LRMing (Pretty baby or even the MX Mauler).

Pretty baby isn't a good LRMer due to tube count, I think you mean the AWS-8R.

Mauler is ok, but the Orion-M has the same quirks. Better off with heavies for LRMs anyway.

Stalker can be a beast in the right hands, but it is slow with the standard engines. OP needs to try out the heavy mechs to see where the big problem is IMO.

edit: MX mauler isn't the best LRM model, it's the 1R if you are going for quirks.

Edited by Barantor, 22 December 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kshahdoo, on 22 December 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

I'm a devoted clanner, always have been. It started long before MWO was released, so no wonder I've been playing for clans only. But with all this IS pilots whining about their mechs suckage, I decided to start playin for IS.

My first mech choice turns out to be terrible - Stalker sucks. Not because it's bad, but because I don't use LRMs, and for a laser boat it's too clumsy, mostly because its arms aren't movable enough. Still I somehow manage to stay on 1 k/d ratio (I'm not a good player, tier3 half way to tier2), being totally noobish to IS mechs and gear.

IS LPL is ******* great! I've already fallen in love with it. But I see one big problem: using STD engines makes IS mechs very tough to kill, but not having enough central torso weapon mounts makes this advantage almost useless. What point to survive, if you lose all your weapons? So I think developers should forget about the lore in this case and give IS mechs more central torso weapons.

I think you are just being new to IS, thus not used to the play style. I know I had some difficulty when first switching to Clan side as a Merc, cause Clan play style is noticeably different.

STK-4N is still very good at making trades against Clan mechs at mid-range. In maps such as Boreal, Portico, and and Hellebore, I frequently do top damage with it. And that's pretty good, considering the fact I am in (MS) now.

STK-5M has CT hardpoint. Put a LPL in it or something.

The Basilisk, on 22 December 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Thats a bit harsh dude.
When you are used to timby, Hellbringer or Executioner for Laser vomit the Stalker is hillariously slow and cumbersome with its high laser hardpoints and favorable hitboxes not realy making up for the fact that you are exposed too long to feel good.

Every IS mechs just sucks compared to their clan counterparts in their respective class.

It is true that IS mechs are inferior than that of Clan mechs in general, hence PGI's tonnage restriction band-aid. Pugs vs. premades is bigger issue though.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 December 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Bombast, on 22 December 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

Using a Standard engine lets you survive losing a side torso, a fairly useful skill for a variety of mechs. Far more useful then surviving as a stick with one LPL.

The Stalker is also a pretty nice assault mech. It's no Kodiak, but what is?

Let's compare Stalker to any clan assault. If you destroy both side torsos to clan assault, it will die. Easy and simple. If you destroy both side torsos to Stalker, it will survive, but lose all its weapons, i.e. you may consider it dead as well. But if you add a central torso or head hardpoint to Stalker (or move one of arm or side torso hardpoints to central torso or head), it will not just survive, but still be able to fight, i.e. you boost IS mechs.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Personally;
Any Mech with CT/Head Energy Hardpoints are Mechs that I consider great Mechs
Any Mechs that doesn't have CT/Head but have Energy on their ST are Mechs that I consider second rates (with an exception of a few, namely the Jagers)
Any Arm mounted only Mechs are Mechs that I consider BAD

Zombie builds ftw <3

[Bud Crue]

Kshahdoo, on 22 December 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Alright, with Stalker arms aren't movable separately from torso to left and right, it's very difficult to fight even pretty slow mechs, if they start to circle around you. I haven't tried other laser IS assaults yet (but I will, when I have enough money), so I can't say anything about them. But I hope, they have better arms, than Stalker.

I think I get where you are going now (but dude, the "whine" commentary I think was still harsh and gave a pretty strong suggestion that you were just coming into mock). If you want to run LPLs on a Stalker do it on the 5M or the H. But the M especially has faster twist and better torso and yaw range.

Barantor, on 22 December 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Pretty baby isn't a good LRMer due to tube count, I think you mean the AWS-8R.

Mauler is ok, but the Orion-M has the same quirks. Better off with heavies for LRMs anyway.

Stalker can be a beast in the right hands, but it is slow with the standard engines. OP needs to try out the heavy mechs to see where the big problem is IMO.

edit: MX mauler isn't the best LRM model, it's the 1R if you are going for quirks.

My apologies on the Mauler. You are absolutely correct.
As to the Pretty Baby they fixed the tube count. I don't know when but it is most certainly fixed.
But lots not get away from the larger point:

If an IS ASSAULT is forced to be a LRMer in order to be considered to not suck, then that right there is a pretty clear indication that there is a balance problem (I don't believe this, but that is what I took as the meaning of the OP).

Edited by Bud Crue, 22 December 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Barantor]

Bud Crue, on 22 December 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I think I get where you are going now (but dude, the "whine" commentary I think was still harsh and gave a pretty strong suggestion that you were just coming into mock). If you want to run LPLs on a Stalker do it on the 5M or the H. But the M especially has faster twist and better torso and yaw range.



My apologies on the Mauler. You are absolutely correct.
As to the Pretty Baby they fixed the tube count. I don't know when but it is most certainly fixed.
But lots not get away from the larger point:

If an IS ASSAULT is forced to be a LRMer in order to be considered to not suck, then that right there is a pretty clear indication that there is a balance problem (I don't believe this, but that is what I took as the meaning of the OP).

I'll have to check that out in the PB, I know they did the remodel of it's tubes to the shoulder like the others, but last time I checked it was still limited to 2x4 tubes in the arm.

Regardless though the 8R is a vastly superior LRMer for the Awesomes, which it should be.

[Bud Crue]

Barantor, on 22 December 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'll have to check that out in the PB, I know they did the remodel of it's tubes to the shoulder like the others, but last time I checked it was still limited to 2x4 tubes in the arm.

Regardless though the 8R is a vastly superior LRMer for the Awesomes, which it should be.

Must have been with the remodel. But yeah, I put three LRM15+A on my PB, not only is the graphic representation of all missiles shown on the mech (as ridiculous as it looks) but in game they launch as one clump and not staggered from all three hard points. Comparing the quirks to the Mauler 1R, it is pretty comparable. I don't have an 8R, 1 LRM Assault (the PB) is enough for me.

[Barantor]

Bud Crue, on 22 December 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Must have been with the remodel. But yeah, I put three LRM15+A on my PB, not only is the graphic representation of all missiles shown on the mech (as ridiculous as it looks) but in game they launch as one clump and not staggered from all three hard points. Comparing the quirks to the Mauler 1R, it is pretty comparable. I don't have an 8R, 1 LRM Assault (the PB) is enough for me.

I end up with my old founders Catapult or the Archers I have if I want to LRM so I don't use assaults for it.

Back to OP though, there are other mechs with more torso points (Banshee) but the problem comes down to weights not really where they are located.

[Y E O N N E]

Hardpoint location actually plays a major role in that it can directly impact weight. If your firepower has significant concentration in the arms, then you can't strip them to gain extra resources. This is why the Warhammer is so good; most of its firepower is in the torso, and the way the hardpoints are distributed between the sides allows you to mount multiple big guns even with an XL, doubling down on the weight savings their placement already gives you.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 December 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Barantor, on 22 December 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

I end up with my old founders Catapult or the Archers I have if I want to LRM so I don't use assaults for it.

Back to OP though, there are other mechs with more torso points (Banshee) but the problem comes down to weights not really where they are located.

There are different problems, and I'm talking about more damage dealing without making any radical moves like makinf IS mechs the same as Clan ones or vice versa, because central torso hardpoints allow STD engine mechs not just live longer, but shoot longer.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 22 December 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Why am I the only player that can preform just as well if not better with IS mechs as with Clan mech?

Jester - 2.75 K/D - 385 Average Damage
Linebacker = 2.56 K/D - 382 Average Damage

Crab - 2.0 K/D - 310 Average Damage
Nova - 1.51 K/D - 337 Average Damage

Marauder - 2.31 K/D - 455 Average Damage
Timberwolf - 1.63 K/D - 403 Average Damage

Battlemaster - 2.51 K/D - 452 Average Damage
Marauder IIC - 2.0 K/D 469 Average Damage

Yeah I am seeing a huge tech imbalance here....NOT.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Or we could address stuff like the fact an IS medium laser does 5 damage out to a measly 297m with range extension while a clan ER medium laser will do 8 damage almost to 500m with range extension for the same weight, slots, and slightly more heat, with the benefits of targeting computers further boosting their range. To even match that damage at that range as IS you have the large laser, which is 5 tons, and the ER large laser that runs incredibly hot; and yet those are phased out by the 4 ton clan ER large laser (barely, the burn duration makes it not as skewed and CERLLAS are awful within 500 meters whereas IS large lasers will retain some use) and 6 ton clan large pulse laser.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 22 December 2016 - 12:40 PM.