297 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 09:15 PM, said:

Garbage? The Adder is potent enough to make a Blackjack do a double take. It's just not good as a hit-and-run 'Mech and it never will be on account of the fact that it can't run.

Also, Locust is only good precisely because it can do that.

I just hate seeing that specific Locust build, because all I really play any more is my Adder, and dear lord I can't fight that. When I'm in anything bigger I couldn't care, it's just a light mech, but when I'm in my Adder... Blech. Can't hit a good Locust pilot with those PPCs when SRMs are hammering you.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 29 December 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

I just hate seeing that specific Locust build, because all I really play any more is my Adder, and dear lord I can't fight that. When I'm in anything bigger I couldn't care, it's just a light mech, but when I'm in my Adder... Blech. Can't hit a good Locust pilot with those PPCs when SRMs are hammering you.

Well, you are trying to beat a nail in using a spoon. The Adder is not equipped to be an anti-Light except with SSRMs, if that's how you want to roll.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

Well, you are trying to beat a nail in using a spoon. The Adder is not equipped to be an anti-Light except with SSRMs, if that's how you want to roll.

Honestly, I've been thinking about making an exception to my lore build fetishization just for the Adder, since it's my favorite mech to actually pilot. Make it into my dream machine.

[MacClearly]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 28 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

i do know that you guys took the wrong side gate and split your team then proceeded to get rollstomped... so you were super terrible, maybe some amazing comp team can pull off such bad tactics cause they are so good, you guys clearly didnt have even the hope of a chance anymore than a pure skittles pug team would. brutal to watch a 8-9 man IS team play at least as badly as a random pug team i am dropped with... without the benefit that i might be able to dissaude them from doing horrible tactics that results in the team getting rollstomped.

There is no wrong side. There are two gates on Hellbore and both are very viable. Your assessment of some of the top players currently playing FW (not myself of coarse) is infamatory. Not much has to be said however as the leaderboards point towards who knows what they are doing.

None of that matters as before the first wave was even over which the enemy team had only a four mech lead, you came storming in. When told to stop you said something to the effect of not having enough damage in your first mech....

Regardless if you think things are going well, if you are going to play FW please listen to the drop caller especially if it is coming from one of the better units playing the game.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MacClearly, on 29 December 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

There is no wrong side. There are two gates on Hellbore and both are very viable. Your assessment of some of the top players currently playing FW (not myself of coarse) is infamatory. Not much has to be said however as the leaderboards point towards who knows what they are doing.

None of that matters as before the first wave was even over which the enemy team had only a four mech lead, you came storming in. When told to stop you said something to the effect of not having enough damage in your first mech....

Regardless if you think things are going well, if you are going to play FW please listen to the drop caller especially if it is coming from one of the better units playing the game.

what you just said is an outright lie or total ignorance of map design... there are certain positions that are stronger on every map, some more so than others depending which map. So there is clear distinction on which is the worse option to do... at a minimum you are again ignorant of the total picture of that "first wave" as well, it was 12-3. I pushed in with my TDR-9SE specifically to steal kills with the 3 LPLs, which i did claiming a bunch of their first wave mechs as the tail end of our first wave died. So it being 13-8 on the 2nd wave was a DIRECT result of my pushing my 2nd mech forward to farm what i could selfishly since the match was already lost, we do not have a King to tip over so we have to play the match through to its bitter conclusion but its conclusion was already determined. I listen to anyone who is worth listening to... when dropping with larger +8 man groups I let them run the show cause they are not going to listen to me, when dropping with PUGs or smaller groups I dropcall almost every time. so again... It was only the 4th Wave that was 11v12 in a match that was lost 27-48, so are very clearly trying to make a distinction that makes absolutely no difference to the outcome of the match like it means a single solitary thing of any real value. It did not... even a little.

FYI... I am playing a different level game in my mind, since I am playing the strategic TT game. Its why i call almost every drop I play, cause i want to move the pieces around the board for victory. The Leaderboards are people who are amazing at the Twitch aspect of shooting their Mechs, those are not mutually inclusive aspects of this game. In many ways they are apposite goals, since playing very selfishly is how you get to the top of the Leaderboards but playing as a Team member can be punishing to the pieces that are spent to achieve victory. It is actually one of the reasons that PUGs are much better in FW, because the flawed Reward System in this game is not so punishing for Team play since we get 4 Mechs and no one has to be sacrificial each drop wave. So, in conclusion the standards that most people are judging by are not what i am judging by... they are functionally just a couple lucky die rolls to me. Nice to have high die rolls but since i have been consistently a bad roller my entire life across all games, I learned how to overcome them in whatever system i was playing & in BT that is by always having superior positioning on the maps

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

The Leaderboards are people who are amazing at the Twitch aspect of shooting their Mechs, those are not mutually inclusive aspects of this game.

Sorry, I had to lol at this part, because most good players aren't simply good shots, they have good positioning too and understand how to maneuver around to respond to an enemy positioning and movements.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 December 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Sorry, I had to lol at this part, because most good players aren't simply good shots, they have good positioning too and understand how to maneuver around to respond to an enemy positioning and movements.

I did not say they were mutually exclusive either, did I? The reading comprehension skills of others still surprises me even after all this time and so many examples... my whole point was that being on the Leaderboards is not the end all be all of determination that MacClearly was trying to demonstrate his point by citing. Especially considering I was an active participate in the those other factors and pointing how they were subpar across multiple instances... using the inferior gate, splitting the team into 3 components by 1/3 going down the inside lane/ 1/3 going down the outside lanes/ with another 3-4 mechs staying high middle on the corner "sniping", but trying to rest the entirety of his premise on the fact that the 4th drop wave being 11v12 because i pushed in to selfishly steal some kills once. Kills that had absolutely not real bearing on the outcome of the match because the enemy team was one of those who pushed out their heavily damaged mechs to get new ones after damaging our fresh mechs before they reset after each wave of ours was crushed.

so... if that was the sum total of what you were able to extract from my post, then I feel sorry for you. I would rather believe that you fully comprehended what I said and are instead trying to mock me because while that is kinda scummy & you have no real counterpoint, it would still have you being smart. I always want to believe that people are intelligent.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

I did not say they were mutually exclusive either, did I? The reading comprehension skills of others still surprises me even after all this time and so many examples

It has nothing to do with reading comprehension and everything to do with your tone about how these players are often against team play, which is not true. Good players are ones that are the best of both worlds, team players and good shots. Hell, even if there are some spectacular shots, the team should focus on supporting them and making sure they are able to do as much as they possibly can because that is team play, doing what you need to ensure the team is victorious.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

my whole point was that being on the Leaderboards is not the end all be all of determination that MacClearly was trying to demonstrate his point by citing.

I'll agree with this, the leaderboards is not the end all be all because it can be gamed and is not necessarily indicative of skill. The good players that actually deserve to be there though don't get there by twitch skills alone, hell even the people that get there and don't deserve it don't get there by twitch play.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

so... if that was the sum total of what you were able to extract from my post, then I feel sorry for you.

So I am disallowed from responding to a weird piece of rhetoric that is a fallacy because I didn't care about the rest? Please, spare me your belligerence.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 December 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 December 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

It has nothing to do with reading comprehension and everything to do with your tone about how these players are often against team play, which is not true. Good players are ones that are the best of both worlds, team players and good shots. Hell, even if there are some spectacular shots, the team should focus on supporting them and making sure they are able to do as much as they possibly can because that is team play, doing what you need to ensure the team is victorious.


I'll agree with this, the leaderboards is not the end all be all because it can be gamed and is not necessarily indicative of skill. The good players that actually deserve to be there though don't get there by twitch skills alone, hell even the people that get there and don't deserve it don't get there by twitch play.


So I am disallowed from responding to a weird piece of rhetoric that is a fallacy because I didn't care about the rest? Please, spare me your belligerence.

it clearly was NOT a fallacious point since you agreed that it was 100% valid, that the Leaderboards can be gamed and are not the totality that judgement can be derived from. so you plucked one part of the least substantive value from everything I said and then.... tried to do what?!?!? It was not a fallacious or disingenuous point i made... you agree with my point for all the same valid reasons that I was making when I said it, but are somehow trying to disagree with me as a person not the intellectual concepts I conveyed. you could have just called me a poopy-head if that is the fundamental aspect of what you are trying to do, it would have conveyed the concept you are trying to express much more eloquently & clearly to me. Instead you just said nonsensical things that was very confusing because you were trying to rebut against a point you know to be true.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

it clearly was NOT a fallacious point since you agreed that it was 100% valid, that the Leaderboards can be gamed and are not the totality that judgement can be derived from.

That part was indeed correct, but your reasoning for the why and how that is the case is incorrect.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

so you plucked one part of the least substantive value from everything I said and then.... tried to do what?!?!?

Correct you, I really couldn't care less about your spat with MacClearly, only when you start to spout rhetoric that is wrong.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 December 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 December 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

That part was indeed correct, but your reasoning for the why and how that is the case is incorrect.


Correct you, I really couldn't care less about your spat with MacClearly, only when you start to spout rhetoric that is wrong.

How is the reasoning incorrect...? you need to provide a counterpoint for it to qualify as something an adult would say, otherwise you are a child with your fingers in your ears saying No Its Not for all the cognitive value you are injecting into the world. I would like to hear it, maybe you have a valid points that I have not considered and would be able to expand my understanding because of learning from you. You did not disprove my reasoning for my conclusion, you did not provide different reasoning for the conclusion, yet agreed that the conclusion is true... while saying that it is a fallacious conclusion. All I have is my experience and second hand the experience of others as anecdotal evidence but I have rarely heard anything to contradict that experience... experience like when dropping as part of the team with these "top tier groups" in +8 Groups, they rarely if ever use VOIP and just use Teamspeak with each other. If you are lucky you might get 1 person who says a minimal amount to the others over VOIP, meaning that they are coordinating with each other but you as the PUG have to guess and try to anticipate what they are going to do cause they do not include you. The majority of the Groups cutting chunks of the Team out from communication is detrimental to the Team, yet it is the norm for their behavior... meaning its what i expect them to do and am every so surprised and happy when they do not do it. It happens the inverse as well, the 4 man Groups that never coordinate with the Team and an almost surprising number of them straight up have VOIP disabled... so there no ability to coordinate as a Team with them at all. That is an easily remedied problems that should never even happen cause they have zero beneficial reason to do so... I am not talking about the normal human behavior that makes you care about and want to protect your friends and sacrifice the stranger, but that is just a systemic way humans are built & I know I am certainly guilty of doing that while in larger Groups to the few PUGs that get swept up with us. So I rarely if ever hold that against a Group if they do it to me, but again... you are not providing any cogent points of your own to support your assertion that either I am not smart enough to know what I am saying or that I am intentionally lying because I know the words I am saying are untrue but am saying them anyways.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Jack Spade Ward, on 27 December 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Only noobs use LRMs, get that to your heads!

Only noobs say that only noobs use LRM's.

It's actually fun watching Tier 1 scatter when LRM's are used against them effectively.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

How is the reasoning incorrect...? you need to provide a counterpoint for it to qualify

I did provide it, you just seem to ignore it, The leaderboards aren't gamed through twitch skill because twitch skill alone doesn't get you good scores just like positioning alone doesn't get you good scores. Whether it is through running with a group that helps boost your scores or playing the smallest number of games to qualify during a winning streak. These are just some of the things that help skew scores to hide good players. It has nothing to do with this theme that "leaderboards are full of rambo twitch players" and more to do with the actual ways to game the system.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 10:12 AM, said:

but I have rarely heard anything to contradict that experience... experience like when dropping as part of the team with these "top tier groups" in +8 Groups, they rarely if ever use VOIP and just use Teamspeak with each other.

You act like half the time these teams have these plans in mind when they drop. Generally SJR uses group queue to get warmed up and/or level up some things really fast, the people that recognize us always look to us for a plan but we never actually have one, we just react to the situations we see. It has nothing to do with "being a team player" and everything to do with being able to react appropriately to a situation without being told to do so, which is really the sign of a good player. That said, if a lance or so is doing something stupid we will generally call them out on it to which the normal response amounts to "we do what we want." If there is one good thing about playing in solo queue, it is that you are pretty much forced to pretty much learn that skill to survive some of the harder battles.

That said, my unit is one of the quieter groups as I know EmP does some PUG commanding here and there.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 December 2016 - 10:54 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Looking back at this thread now, I realize my post on page 1 had virtually nothing to do with what OP was talking about. I must have been really tired or something.

Sorry about that

[FuhNuGi]

You can have my Lurms when you pry them from my smouldering wrecked launcher tubes.

T1 was fun last night, yes, I did run the boats a little... and the streaks, and the PPCs...

Any tier, I don't care what, gets real stupid when you get to 450m and lock em up and send it... missile warnings seem to have a line adjusting effect, when they rain comes, firing lines move, allowing the brawlers and direct fire guys on my team to move up and take ground. No special tag or NARC, although popping a UAV up helps everyone. No advance coordination of team.
Just driving the boat and helping the team, following the called target to actually function as a Fire Support mech. Not a superstar, but a team player softening up that CT for your pop tart Gauss to finish the job.

Cry all you want, if you want to play the crying game. Too busy lurming you to listen to you.

[RestosIII]

Didn't this thread already get a cleansing because of you two having e-peen battles?

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 December 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

I did provide it, you just seem to ignore it, The leaderboards aren't gamed through twitch skill because twitch skill alone doesn't get you good scores just like positioning alone doesn't get you good scores. Whether it is through running with a group that helps boost your scores or playing the smallest number of games to qualify during a winning streak. These are just some of the things that help skew scores to hide good players. It has nothing to do with this theme that "leaderboards are full of rambo twitch players" and more to do with the actual ways to game the system.



You act like half the time these teams have these plans in mind when they drop. Generally SJR uses group queue to get warmed up and/or level up some things really fast, the people that recognize us always look to us for a plan but we never actually have one, we just react to the situations we see. It has nothing to do with "being a team player" and everything to do with being able to react appropriately to a situation without being told to do so, which is really the sign of a good player. That said, if a lance or so is doing something stupid we will generally call them out on it to which the normal response amounts to "we do what we want." If there is one good thing about playing in solo queue, it is that you are pretty much forced to pretty much learn that skill to survive some of the harder battles.

That said, my unit is one of the quieter groups as I know EmP does some PUG commanding here and there.

Nope... I was just saying exactly what you said about your own Group when they drop, that they do not have a plan because that is generally how battles are won. By winging it... I remember that book Patton wrote about how to be an amazing military tactician was to have no clear understanding of terrain, application of force, and battle plans being for pu$$ies. It is the premier text that is taught in all military schools around the world as the fundamental doctrine for the prosecution of Armored Combat, people get PhD every year giving thesis's on it and how it is a model of tactics that can never be improved upon.

Oh wait... again you have not rebutted a single reason underlying the point I was making in response to MacCleary trying to say that I just needed to do what the Group said cause they were undisputedly better than I could ever be able to comprehend. Hence why i was providing very precise reasons on how exactly they had failed before the first shot was ever even fired, a plan that I went along with quietly even knowing it was a failure because it was an impossible task for me to prevent. I even asked them where we were going right from the dropship because I deferred to them as a large group in team, but once it was clear that the game was over and got instantly headshot through a wall no less... I did not mind acting selfishly by running my second mech straight in to get a bunch of kills, so the entire crux of his point was that they lost that game because they fought the 4th wave at 11v12 when in reality that game was lost before I even died right in the very beginning. Too much armored material got thrown away ineffectively to ever regain an advantage without the enemy team making an even bigger tactical blunder (not an easy feat for the enemy team to accomplish considering the size of the blunder necessary to achieve but certainly something you will see on occasion playing QP maps on the weekends or any day on the European server.) Since we were playing another large Group and did not even have the benefit of the minimally increased likelihood of that happening that playing all PUGs would give... I would have been willing to bet a decent four figure sum on the outcome, cause I like making money and betting that we were going to lose was certain money.

My entertaining your irrelevance has come to an end because you demonstratively have nothing insightful or cogent to offer me to learn from.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

By winging it... I remember that book Patton wrote about how to be an amazing military tactician was to have no clear understanding of terrain, application of force, and battle plans being for pu$$ies. It is the premier text that is taught in all military schools around the world as the fundamental doctrine for the prosecution of Armored Combat, people get PhD every year giving thesis's on it and how it is a model of tactics that can never be improved upon.

You are confused, where did I say that teams that have no plan have no understanding of terrain or application of force. Just because you don't go into the game with a starting game plan doesn't mean you can't still do that or even understand how to do that in a match. All I can say is you sure like strawmen.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 30 December 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Oh wait... again you have not rebutted a single reason underlying the point I was making in response to MacCleary trying to say that I just needed to do what the Group said cause they were undisputedly better than I could ever be able to comprehend.

Again, I don't care about that, the only point I'm trying to make is about why people are where they are on the leaderboards and that the idea that good players are somehow only good because they are twitchy players.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 December 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tristan Winter, on 28 December 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

Feast / famine is not really a useful term, because it's so inaccurate. How good is the feast and how bad is the famine? How often do you get a feast and how often do you get a famine? If there's a 50% chance of doing 1000+ damage and 50% chance of doing 0 damage, how do those numbers compare with the average pug numbers? And what if it's a 70% chance of doing 400+ damage and a 30% chance of doing 0-399 damage?

As for requiring your team to carry you, I disagree with that as well. If the LRM boat is bad and just sits behind cover, then it certainly requires the team to sacrifice their mechs to keep the LRM boat alive, which may not be a good trade. But that's not necessarily the case. And while LRM boats do need protecting, there are other builds that require protecting as well. Most dual gauss builds require protecting. I wouldn't say they're being carried by their teammates, this is just role warfare. You use your pawns to protect your bishops, or your pikemen to protect your archers.

You know, one of my best Clan mech in MWO is actually... my ECM Gauss Shadow Cat. I know just saying this is going to disqualify my opinion for many people, because it's such a bad build. It has the 3rd highest WLR of my Clan mechs, after the Hellbringer and Warhawk. It has a 1.54 WLR after over a hundred matches, playing exclusively in the solo queue. I know these numbers are nothing to write home about, but bear with me. My Gauss Cat works in the same way as an LRM boat. It works best if the team is able to maintain some kind of pressure. If my team totally collapses, then I am not able to do a lot of damage, because I have to spend most of my time running and disengaging. But if my team is able to exert some kind of pressure, then I can amplify their success by pinning down the enemy, killing vulnerable mechs, etc. Does that mean I am being carried? In a sense, they are carrying me by protecting me and keeping the enemy occupied. But in another sense, I am increasing the chance of a victory.

To carry someone means that you're contributing more to victory than they are. But if an LRM boat is getting 6 kills and doing 1400 damage, it probably contributed a lot to victory. It just required protection and, if the LRM boat player was bad, it required a bit of sacrifice.



I'd say this depends on the LRM boat. Your losses are worse if said LRM boat is just hiding in cover without sharing armour and not able to get a lock because neither he nor others is willing to reveal themselves.


I'm not quite sure what the last statement is referring to, it seems like a strawman argument.


I think the big problem is generalising. QP can't always be generalized to FP, solo queue can't always be generalized to group queue, and 12 man group queue can't always be generalized to 8v8 MWOWC matches.

In the solo queue, it's quite likely that you'll find a lot of enemies who are vulnerable to LRMs. And for most players, an LRM boat can exploit their poor awareness more than a SDR-5K can. For a lot of players, the LRM boat is a more reliable path to profit in the solo queue than the SDR-5K, even though elite players used the SDR-5K in the MWOWC and no one was ever seen rocking the AWS-8R LRM boat.

I'm not saying that LRM boats are the best mechs you can take to the solo queue, I'm just saying they consistently do well at any tier and that's why people are using them. They are feast and famine to an extent, but you can say that about a lot of mechs.

These arguments come up a lot and as a general rule are 99% fringe cases. Of the thousands of players running LRMs regularly the ones who are an actual boon to their team could all have dinner at a single (large) table.

Sure, if you, Jman, Panic Button, Novakaine drop in my match with LRMs no complaint. Same as if I see Proton drop on my team in a Jenner. Terrible idea for most people, he shows up in a dusty Jenner and I know I have to hustle if I want any kills.

That's not what anyone is talking about. The reality is that 99.99% of people taking LRMs are not carrying and don't understand why not. They are not learning how to position, share (as needed) armor or maneuver. Without joining teams who have players who can (and will) teach them they're just going to practice playing badly until they are very set at their bad habits. They'll fill their XP bar to raise tiers, get into FW and then refuse to in past the gates because standing behind a wall lobbing LRMs is how they play best.

LRMs don't carry, are bad and teach bad habits. Good players with good habits can take LRMs and carry anyway by having a good command of the game.

World of difference.

[H I A S]

a nice Thread with players talking about noobtube need more skill then PPFLD in 3D movement and Bishop talks nonsense about comp. im so tired about MWO...