89 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

MechaBattler, on 26 December 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

It's not like it would hurt to move up the timeline and give the IS their crappier version of what the Clans get. Unless they gave them some buff that makes up for the difference, it's just going to be inferior. But at least it would be an option.

Then again, we could count the tonnage. The LB10X is 1 ton lighter for clans?

So the Clan gets a weapon worth 11 tons for 10 tons. Yay!

The IS gets a 25% fire rate on it. In DPS terms, each 11 ton weapon is now worth ~13.5 tons. Or, to use the clan tonnage, they get 12.5 tons for 11 tons.

So at the very least good quirks would mitigate it. IS LB20X would be a slot smaller than the AC20, right? Would that fit in more arms, like the centurion?

[Bombast]

Snowbluff, on 26 December 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

So at the very least good quirks would mitigate it. IS LB20X would be a slot smaller than the AC20, right? Would that fit in more arms, like the centurion?

Inner Sphere LB 20-X is one slot larger then the AC/20, which means it can't fit in any arms.. The LB 10-X is an oddity.

Edited by Bombast, 26 December 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[banana peel]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

I know what you typed. And I know you are still wrong. Nothing compels you to sit there and hold the button down for two shots while staring.

Oh, so you really meant ac5? Torso twisting with 1,4 sec cooldown (with 5% skill and 12% module), which is most of times even less with some quirks on top of it? Ok, i'm shutting up now. You obviuosly play some other game.

On a more productive topic. I think MWO is at a state where you cant just inject new mechs, they are all the same, and new skill tree wouldnt change much. Take that roughneck for example - same old tuned jager. Why bother? So i think there lies true hope for new weapons - mech packs must be sold, and the new skin alone wont sell them itself to MWO community.

[Y E O N N E]

banana peel, on 26 December 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Oh, so you really meant ac5? Torso twisting with 1,4 sec cooldown (with 5% skill and 12% module), which is most of times even less with some quirks on top of it? Ok, i'm shutting up now. You obviuosly play some other game.

Or some of us know that it is not always appropriate to stare down a target? You wouldn't try staring down a DWF with a SHD-2H, you'd take pot shots while waiting for him to be distracted long enough for you to safely unload.

[Snowbluff]

Bombast, on 26 December 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Inner Sphere LB 20-X is one slot larger then the AC/20, which means it can't fit in any arms.. The LB 10-X is an oddity.

D: That is pure misery.

[Y E O N N E]

Snowbluff, on 26 December 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

D: That is pure misery.

#InnerSphere

[Bombast]

Snowbluff, on 26 December 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

D: That is pure misery.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

#InnerSphere

Yup.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect the LB 20-X may be the reason why the current tech level has been drawn in the sand. They can't include it without putting it on some canon mech variants, and they can't put it on canon mech variants without introducing crit splitting, and they can't include crit splitting because either they can't figure out how to change the construction rules, or they fear the rage of all the clanners who have been begging for omnimech construction rules changes.

Oh well. One way or another, the LB 20-X is just another nail in the coffin my dreams of a Sunder lays in.

[Y E O N N E]

Honestly, I think the people who wrote the rules for BattleTech screwed up majorly when it comes to LB-X ACs. The IS LB-10X is so out of whack with everything else (or, rather, everything else is out of whack compared to the LB-10X).

[banana peel]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Or some of us know that it is not always appropriate to stare down a target? You wouldn't try staring down a DWF with a SHD-2H, you'd take pot shots while waiting for him to be distracted long enough for you to safely unload.

You must have misunderstood me. I was talking about raw dps in raw skirmish. With Lbx10 you can fire-twist-fire without any loss of dps, while if you are in situation where you must twist with ac5 - then you will lose deeps, because heavies and even most mediums are not quite quick enough to full twist within 1.4 sec - just a little wiggle, thats all you can afford. That was my original point - lbx10 exceeds both ac5 and uac5 in a brawl and open skirmish.
Ok, now i'm really shutting up, cause i cant imagine a more simple way to express my thought.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Honestly, I think the people who wrote the rules for BattleTech screwed up majorly when it comes to LB-X ACs. The IS LB-10X is so out of whack with everything else (or, rather, everything else is out of whack compared to the LB-10X).

Eh. It's not really that bad in Battletech, where boating, while advantageous, isn't that big of a draw, and the bloat of a single LB 20/10/5-X isn't that big of a deal. The LB-X range isn't a triump of balancing, but it's not a tragedy either. It's not until you shift to Mechwarrior where it really falls apart, and the need to stack weapons, and fire everything all the time, and deal with a constrained mechlab, that all the little problems with Tech 2 crit management really come to a head.

Edited by Bombast, 26 December 2016 - 11:09 AM.

[Mcgral18]

banana peel, on 26 December 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

You must have misunderstood me. I was talking about raw dps in raw skirmish. With Lbx10 you can fire-twist-fire without any loss of dps, while if you are in situation where you must twist with ac5 - then you will lose deeps, because heavies and even most mediums are not quite quick enough to full twist within 1.4 sec - just a little wiggle, thats all you can afford. That was my original point - lbx10 exceeds both ac5 and uac5 in a brawl and open skirmish.
Ok, now i'm really shutting up, cause i cant imagine a more simple way to express my thought.

But why not use an AC10 at that point?

[Jep Jorgensson]

Personally, I have no problem with moving up the timeline to 3058. Maybe then the IS babies will stop crying about how Clans are OP. Before that happens though, there are a few things that need to be addressed.

1. The Clans are supposed to have LAMS (Laser Anti-Missile System) since they went into production in 3048.

2. Fix the Clan UAC's! This is supposed to be Battletech! Not a Battletech AU!

3. Fix the LBX AC's! "The most notable feature of the weapon was its ability to fire both standard HEAP rounds and a specialized anti-Mech cluster round." -Sarna.net

Aside from all that, GET RID OF THE DAMN HACKERS ALREADY! WE ARE SICK OF GETTING ONE-SHOTTED BY HONOR-LESS CHEATERS THAT CANNOT PLAY THE GAME FAIRLY!

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 26 December 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Bombast]

Jep Jorgensson, on 26 December 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

2. Fix the Clan UAC's! This is supposed to be Battletech! Not a Battletech AU!

I'm confused by this reference. Battletech AU? Alternative Universe?

[Angel of Annihilation]

razenWing, on 26 December 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

But the same weakness extend to Clan version too then? But people still use LBX 20 on the Clan side. Am I missing something?

Yep.

Clan ballistic choices suck.

Seriously, I am not joking here. The issue with the Clan's is they don't have any really good choices when it comes to Ballistic weapons. Clan UAC's while having their uses can be very inferior to IS single slug ACs due to the fact that the have to fire in a burst and burst fire isn't all that good for concentrated damage. Then consider with the now increased jam chances and duration and unless your boating Clan UAC's they tend to leave a lot to be desired. Also don't forget the extended face time you have to provide the enemy in order fire off the entire burst.

Then you have the placeholder CAC's which aside from not jamming and being a tad bit cooler really at the expense of taking up more critical slots, really don't have a place in the game. They are suppose to be single shot versions of the LBX but PGI just kind of did nothing with them.

This is where Clan LBX's come in. They still suck but at the same time they are single shot weapons so you can actually just peek and shoot with them like you would with IS ACs. Also if your close enough to the enemy, you can generally land all your pellets in just one section of the mech much like you could do with a IS AC.

So basically as a Clanner you have a choice. Got with the burst firing, massively frustrating jam machine, the Clan UAC or go with the extreme shot range shotgun that can kind of, sort of, hit like a IS standard AC. Neither choice it good but when both suck it is half dozen one, six the other.

On the IS side, there is rarely a reason I can think of why you would want to use a LBX when they have superior PPD, single shot slug ACs which are by far the superior ballastic weapon in most cases, be it Clan or IS.

[Snowbluff]

Viktor Drake, on 26 December 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yep.

Clan ballistic choices suck.

Seriously, I am not joking here. The issue with the Clan's is they don't have any really good choices when it comes to Ballistic weapons. Clan UAC's while having their uses can be very inferior to IS single slug ACs due to the fact that the have to fire in a burst and burst fire isn't all that good for concentrated damage. Then consider with the now increased jam chances and duration and unless your boating Clan UAC's they tend to leave a lot to be desired. Also don't forget the extended face time you have to provide the enemy in order fire off the entire burst.

Then you have the placeholder CAC's which aside from not jamming and being a tad bit cooler really at the expense of taking up more critical slots, really don't have a place in the game. They are suppose to be single shot versions of the LBX but PGI just kind of did nothing with them.

This is where Clan LBX's come in. They still suck but at the same time they are single shot weapons so you can actually just peek and shoot with them like you would with IS ACs. Also if your close enough to the enemy, you can generally land all your pellets in just one section of the mech much like you could do with a IS AC.

So basically as a Clanner you have a choice. Got with the burst firing, massively frustrating jam machine, the Clan UAC or go with the extreme shot range shotgun that can kind of, sort of, hit like a IS standard AC. Neither choice it good but when both suck it is half dozen one, six the other.

On the IS side, there is rarely a reason I can think of why you would want to use a LBX when they have superior PPD, single shot slug ACs which are by far the superior ballastic weapon in most cases, be it Clan or IS.

I agree. I like IS guns much better.

I use LBX on my clan machines to do my best to simulate the IS ballistics. The spread isn't so bad. IMO it makes up for it by being frontloaded instead of pinpoint.

Bombast, on 26 December 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Yup.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect the LB 20-X may be the reason why the current tech level has been drawn in the sand. They can't include it without putting it on some canon mech variants, and they can't put it on canon mech variants without introducing crit splitting, and they can't include crit splitting because either they can't figure out how to change the construction rules, or they fear the rage of all the clanners who have been begging for omnimech construction rules changes.

Oh well. One way or another, the LB 20-X is just another nail in the coffin my dreams of a Sunder lays in.

I would say they should deviate from the game rules to get them to be smaller. >:0

[banana peel]

Mcgral18, on 26 December 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

But why not use an AC10 at that point?

That is an option, yes. AC10 is better in 500m+ peek trades at the very least. But then you have advantages of lbx10: 1 ton less, 1 crit less, 1 heat less and - most crucial for me - higher velocity which enables to shoot agile oponents constantly (legs lights like crazy) and also gives you velocity sync with ppc. All this combined (mostly - heat efficiency) makes lbx a better weapon in a brawl. If you still dont agree - go in training ground and shoot mechs with decent size of CT in 200-250m distance. At least 75% goes into CT, so in close ac10s pinpoint doesnt have any advantage.

[Snazzy Dragon]

LB-X cannons will always be "for funsies" weapons until we get ammo switching anyway.

[Angel of Annihilation]

banana peel, on 26 December 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

Oh, so you really meant ac5? Torso twisting with 1,4 sec cooldown (with 5% skill and 12% module), which is most of times even less with some quirks on top of it? Ok, i'm shutting up now. You obviuosly play some other game.

On a more productive topic. I think MWO is at a state where you cant just inject new mechs, they are all the same, and new skill tree wouldnt change much. Take that roughneck for example - same old tuned jager. Why bother? So i think there lies true hope for new weapons - mech packs must be sold, and the new skin alone wont sell them itself to MWO community.

Geometry and hit boxes are what makes a mech different in the game currently. Quirks and movement profiles can be meaningful as well and make a huge difference.

Take the Huntman. There wasn't a mech in this game that I was looking forward to more but I absolutely hate what they did with it. Hugh CT hitboxs and very sluggish movement profile. If they released a similar Clan mech with the exact same build options but one that actually had good hit boxes and mobility, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

[East Indy]

Of all the tech changes available, the full spectrum of LB-X (and for that matter, Streak SRMs) would not only not obsolete existing equipment, but would probably make the systems easier to balance.

[MechaBattler]

Bombast, on 26 December 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Inner Sphere LB 20-X is one slot larger then the AC/20, which means it can't fit in any arms.. The LB 10-X is an oddity.

Then PGI should fix that discrepancy. It's more of that "Clans are supposed to be superior" shtick. They can save that for a single player game.