53 replies to this topic

[Yanlowen Cage]

First off okay this is a lore thing.

Now the perception in the game is that clans are as large as the inner sphere. Wrong.

The Clans are a small group of planets numbering less than 50 worlds divided amongst 20 (to begin with) clans. They brought to the Inner sphere when they Invade superior soldiers, mechs, and tech. They DID NOT bring superior numbers.

Analogy: During World War 2 the Germans had better tech, better trained soldiers, and superior Tactics. The Allies had numbers. The Allies ramped up research and training as the war went on but to begin with NUMBERS. and it was numbers that won the war. Attrition.

Now back to the Clans Vs. the Inner Sphere. The Inner sphere has numbers. and they can be taught. So the war vs. the clans was won by.... you guessed it, numbers. The Inner Sphere is HUGE. and 3 of the houses never saw direct combat (in their territories) with the clans. House Marik who became the producers of war time materials of the Inner sphere. House Liao who are very good at Intel gathering info. And House Davion who had a huge army and great tacticians in their own right. So basically the Clans never really stood a chance VS the Inner Sphere.

So what is the point of all this? Question for you to ponder. Why are the clans treated in game as if they are on equal footing with the Inner sphere when the Inner sphere obviously out paces them in production and sheer numbers?

I know this is a tactical level game and not strategic, but CW/FW IS a strategic level game trying to be shoved in to a tactical box. which is why it does not work.

[Kanil]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

Question for you to ponder. Why are the clans treated in game as if they are on equal footing with the Inner sphere when the Inner sphere obviously out paces them in production and sheer numbers?

Because people would rather play as the MLG pro with 6:1 KDR than the Russian conscript on the Eastern Front.

[El Bandito]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

So what is the point of all this? Question for you to ponder. Why are the clans treated in game as if they are on equal footing with the Inner sphere when the Inner sphere obviously out paces them in production and sheer numbers?

Cause PGI wanted Clan tech to be on the same level as IS tech in MWO, for the sake of easier game balance. Clan tech as of now is still superior than IS tech, though...

[Tarl Cabot]

Understand BT is a boardgame and many battles were fought with the boardgame. The Clans first series of playtesting had them using Star League era mechs and technology vs primarily 3025 technology in which they were brought to a standstill while using their warfare/fighting style. Afterwards that is when Clan technology was created, to fit the storyline.

And part of that storyline had them fighting periphery bandits and border worlds militias made up of a few mechs, if any and tanks while Comstar was assisting by providing intel and interfering with HPG communications. And fighting was done with stock mechs/load outs and that is what helped the Clans with omnipods, the ability to switch from long range to getting ready for bear in a few hours, something that IS could not do with battlemechs.

But this is not lore nor the story, it is a player-made setup with mechlab, etc. Stock mode would be fine for 3025 vs 3025 or Clan vs Clan but mix them up, the competitive players/etc would flock to Clans just like they do now.

Edit - A number of authors also used gaming sessions to help determine how some of the battles they wrote about progressed.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 December 2016 - 04:54 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

...
I know this is a tactical level game and not strategic, but CW/FW IS a strategic level game trying to be shoved in to a tactical box. which is why it does not work.

The whole premise of MWO is basicaly a fail.

The original game was made so the players command several warmachines at a time and not act as a single pilot.

A PvE MW game could still work while capturing the nuances of Clan vs IS struggle.

[Luca M Pryde]

I would have preferred it as 12 vs 10. I think a binary of clan mechs was meant to be equal to a company of IS mechs.

And I would of liked the clan tech being superior to IS. Theoretically, there would be no more complaining about balance because IS is supposed to be inferior to clan. Deal with it.
You could put tonnage restrictions and restrictions on using the same mech multiple times in a row.In fact I don't see why they haven't done this already. It makes buying more mechs more meaningful.


But there are too many cry babies on the IS side that are really cashed up so meh...I am happy for there to be a game...

Edited by Luca M Pryde, 27 December 2016 - 04:49 AM.

[Oberost]

Luca M Pryde, on 27 December 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

I would have preferred it as 12 vs 10. I think a binary of clan mechs was meant to be equal to a company of IS mechs.

And I would of liked the clan tech being superior to IS. Theoretically, there would be no more complaining about balance because IS is supposed to be inferior to clan. Deal with it.
You could put tonnage restrictions and restrictions on using the same mech multiple times in a row.In fact I don't see why they haven't done this already. It makes buying more mechs more meaningful.


But there are too many cry babies on the IS side that are really cashed up so meh...I am happy for there to be a game...

Always the same desire by some Clan loyalists. Below you have why your idea wouldn't work:

Kanil, on 27 December 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

Because people would rather play as the MLG pro with 6:1 KDR than the Russian conscript on the Eastern Front.

Please, stop asking for IS players to provide you with a great K/D ratio...

[B0oN]

Oberost, on 27 December 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

Please, stop asking for IS players to provide you with a great K/D ratio...

They tend to do that too often without me intervening, as if they had a "desire" to play bad or something, I dunno ...
Then the same players( those with the "desire") go to the forums : "Nerf XYZ, XYZ OP !"


I´ll just switch to the easymode side and keep on farming .

[Shiroi Tsuki]

So are you suggesting that EVERY Clanners must be a Tier 1, and those in Tier 2 or below will be automatically be put in IS?
Lore does not necessarily equate to good gameplay

[Alan Davion]

Luca M Pryde, on 27 December 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

I would have preferred it as 12 vs 10. I think a binary of clan mechs was meant to be equal to a company of IS mechs.

Don't forget the Clans inflated BV was also a factor in why they had to take fewer mechs than the IS. Timber Wolf Prime having a BV of 2.2k in BV 1.0 and 2.7k in BV 2.0

Luca M Pryde, on 27 December 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

I would have preferred it as 12 vs 10. I think a binary of clan mechs was meant to be equal to a company of IS mechs.

And I would of liked the clan tech being superior to IS. Theoretically, there would be no more complaining about balance because IS is supposed to be inferior to clan. Deal with it.

Clan Tech is STILL superior to IS tech, don't try to tell people otherwise.

[Oberost]

B0oN, on 27 December 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

They tend to do that too often without me intervening, as if they had a "desire" to play bad or something, I dunno ...
Then the same players( those with the "desire") go to the forums : "Nerf XYZ, XYZ OP !"


I´ll just switch to the easymode side and keep on farming .

A potato will be a potato, Clan or IS.

What I mean is that asking for balance by numbers (12 vs 10 or whatever...) just create a an unfair situation: I have to die so my team mate can kill you, because at the same skill level your mech is better than mine. This leads to a player with better statistics just for playing with the strongest faction.

And who wants to be the one that has to die so other team mate can kill you?

[Bishop Steiner]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 27 December 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

So are you suggesting that EVERY Clanners must be a Tier 1, and those in Tier 2 or below will be automatically be put in IS?
Lore does not necessarily equate to good gameplay

Neither did Eugenics.

The whole conceit of the Clan Invasion novels was that despite all their airs, the Clan Mechs were superior, their Pilots, at the end of the day, were still a mixed bag. Hence why Clanbois then and now, still have to hide behind the crutch of Ubertech.

[Yanlowen Cage]

On the resource front ponder this. The clans only allowed 5 clans to invade. Why? resource preservation. pointless when applied to this game though. Since too many people want to play the fav clan mech because it looks cool. or it's just better in their mind. and PGI knows this and knows that people will pay to have them. But hey it is a money making game, not a charity. So you have to sell the game and it's components. Thus MWO as it is.

As far as why the clans were so good. A major factor in that was Elementals. Those little buggers could take down mechs with ease. scary buggers they were. But the Inner Sphere countered those as well. Eventually.

I am not saying QP pug drops, But CW/FW could be brought closer to balance if clan tonnage was done more off the base line of what percentage does it preform better than the equivalent Inner sphere chassis. Then apply that modifier to the weight.

Say a madcat/timberwolf is 25% better than a marauder. so 75 tons times 1.25% = 93.75 tons. or 95 tonner Inner sphere mech. So the madcat/timberwolf would in a clan vs. I.S. drop be considered a 95 ton mech. but in a clan vs. clan battle it would not be penalized as such.

I believe a madcat/timberwolf could take a cyclops in a battle if used wisely.

Now that is a mote point as it will never happen. but that would bring more of a balanced and true clan feeling to the game. Also note that the best clan omni mechs are not the high end assaults but rather the heavily armed and quick mediums and heavies. The lights are actually handicapped by design in the clans. ??? don't know why.

So again I play both clan and I.S. and if they put it out I would love to have a cougar. Revamped adder with better hard points and weapons loadouts.

[RangerGee412]

Sure why not.

Clanners are never allowed to focus fire. You choose one target and go after him till one of you are dead. Any clan players focus firing will be ejected from the clans.

Someone fires on your target, you have to fight your fellow clanner for "honor".

You have to fall for vritually every trap the IS sets for you.

You must bid the least amount of forces to take a planet. Then start the game to realize your way outnumbered.

No arty, no uavs.


No more cbills for clanners.

If we are gonna go lore we might as well go full lore baby.

[Bombast]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:51 AM, said:

Analogy: During World War 2 the Germans had better tech, better trained soldiers, and superior Tactics.

That's an incredibly simplistic view of WWII Germany. And mostly not true.

But I wont derail the thread any further. Just thought I'd point that out.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot.

While numbers certainly did choke the Clans up, it's not what beat them. Both the Battle of Tukayyid and the Great Refusal were fought with Clan rules, with the Clan's chosen method of warfare. And Anastasius Focht and Victor Ian Steiner-Davion kicked your butts both times, fair and square.

Which means it's the Steiners who saved the Inner Sphere. FASA really liked capitalism.

Edited by Bombast, 27 December 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Bombast, on 27 December 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

That's an incredibly simplistic view of WWII Germany. And mostly not true.

But I wont derail the thread any further. Just thought I'd point that out.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot.

While numbers certainly did choke the Clans up, it's not what beat them. Both the Battle of Tukayyid and the Great Refusal were fought with Clan rules, with the Clan's chosen method of warfare. And Anastasius Focht and Victor Ian Steiner-Davion kicked your butts both times, fair and square.

Which means it's the Steiners who saved the Inner Sphere. FASA really liked capitalism.

And the clans way under bid on the great refusal because they didn't know that Comstar had so much advanced tech and well trained units. Also tukkayid was a trap set for the clans. And to boot read the novels. Focht straight up says he is going to beat the clans by numbers and sneakiness. As for operation bulldog the inner sphere did not bid anything and just ran over clan smoke jaguar with sheer numbers and an unrelenting attack. It was a demonstration of how brutal warfare in the inner sphere could be and how far the Inner sphere was willing to go to stop the clans. Even to the point of annihilating them. which they did to Clan Smoke Jaguar.

So again the Inner Sphere used clan bidding against the clans. If you remember Focht reformed units of elites and veterans into new units so they would look like green units on Tukkayid. Which is what the clans bid to fight. Green units. Plus Focht Rigged the battlefields with traps and such. Hold it against him? no stroke of genius in the book series.

And in operation Bulldog only Inner Sphere units were allowed to assault Smoke Jags. Units of the reformed star league. AND they came with everything they had. Mercs, house units, star league units, and periphery units. No clan units though as some clans joined the new star league. But Victor Stiener-Davion did not want to invalidate the Triumph of operation bulldog by using Clan warriors. It was purely an Inner Sphere @ss kicking of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

[mogs01gt]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

And the clans way under bid on the great refusal because they didn't know that Comstar had so much advanced tech and well trained units. Also tukkayid was a trap set for the clans. And to boot read the novels. Focht straight up says he is going to beat the clans by numbers and sneakiness. As for operation bulldog the inner sphere did not bid anything and just ran over clan smoke jaguar with sheer numbers and an unrelenting attack. It was a demonstration of how brutal warfare in the inner sphere could be and how far the Inner sphere was willing to go to stop the clans. Even to the point of annihilating them. which they did to Clan Smoke Jaguar.
So again the Inner Sphere used clan bidding against the clans. If you remember Focht reformed units of elites and veterans into new units so they would look like green units on Tukkayid. Which is what the clans bid to fight. Green units. Plus Focht Rigged the battlefields with traps and such. Hold it against him? no stroke of genius in the book series.
And in operation Bulldog only Inner Sphere units were allowed to assault Smoke Jags. Units of the reformed star league. AND they came with everything they had. Mercs, house units, star league units, and periphery units. No clan units though as some clans joined the new star league. But Victor Stiener-Davion did not want to invalidate the Triumph of operation bulldog by using Clan warriors. It was purely an Inner Sphere @ss kicking of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

The bottom line is, the clans failed because their leaders didnt adapt. The clan teams that did adapt, easily beat their IS competition.

[Hotthedd]

RangerGee412, on 27 December 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Sure why not.

Clanners are never allowed to focus fire. You choose one target and go after him till one of you are dead. Any clan players focus firing will be ejected from the clans.

Someone fires on your target, you have to fight your fellow clanner for "honor".

You have to fall for vritually every trap the IS sets for you.

You must bid the least amount of forces to take a planet. Then start the game to realize your way outnumbered.

No arty, no uavs.


No more cbills for clanners.

If we are gonna go lore we might as well go full lore baby.

Well, if you want to go FULL lore, the Clans could focus fire an enemy who did not fight with honor, so once the IS pilots focused fired on a Clan 'mech, zellbrigen would allow focusing that target.

[Mystere]

Oberost, on 27 December 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

A potato will be a potato, Clan or IS.

What I mean is that asking for balance by numbers (12 vs 10 or whatever...) just create a an unfair situation: I have to die so my team mate can kill you, because at the same skill level your mech is better than mine. This leads to a player with better statistics just for playing with the strongest faction.

Which is why you should not balance by numbers alone. There's also asymmetric game modes, victory conditions, rewards, not to mentions drop weights which we are already doing. In other words, have a rock-solid plan and vision rather than just "winging it".

But, unfortunately, some people here (not necessarily you, Oberost ) just see 10vs12 and immediately go off their rockers.

Oberost, on 27 December 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

And who wants to be the one that has to die so other team mate can kill you?

I do that all the time if I think doing so earns a win for the team. And that is the problem. MWO is supposed to be a team game but many folks just go stat-whoring at a personal level.

[Mystere]

RangerGee412, on 27 December 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Clanners are never allowed to focus fire. You choose one target and go after him till one of you are dead.

Sometimes, a more creative, rather than literal, translation of BT is in order because the above is just a bit harder to implement. Instead, use the "spirit" of such a rule. How? For example, keep the network-capable sensors for the IS (i.e. data sharing) and give the Clans more individualistic ones (i.e. no data sharing).

RangerGee412, on 27 December 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

If we are gonna go lore we might as well go full lore baby.

Damn, that's going to give me a big O! Don't tease me like that.