45 replies to this topic

[MadIrish]

Why can't the optimal range on the AC20 be 540M with a taper off to 5 at like 2000M not 270/540 and never 0, I mean really if you can hit someone at 540M with a 200millimeter slug as slow as an AC20 taking into account movement and ballistic arc you deserve to register 20 damage and if you can do it at 1080M your having a really good day and it should do 10, if you can do it at 2160M that should still do 5 damage some I mean come-on... you just hit someone with a big, slow, unwieldy cannon with very limited ammo. The maps are typically 3kilometers max and its so annoyingly unrealistic, in 1945 during W W 2 people were lobbing 400milimeter shells over 10kilometers but in the year 3000 540M max, makes no sense. Heck LRMS do tons more damage with much more ease and no line of site BUT it gets so BORING. Now setting up an assault with 2 AC20s and hit a moving mech from 1000M now that takes some serious skill or whole lot of luck either way your gonna be like OH YA! Same with the AC10s the range is just to short, really getting pelted by CLRM20s from Tim Buk Too by someone with no line of site is ok but if I actually have to aim and maybe if I hit you with a 20 its not ok I don't get it.

I don't see what the big deal is about being able to get lucky once and while and land a long range AC20 or AC10 round on someone standing on hill lobbing those LRMs at you and having it do some decent damage. I mean the physics of the projectile is correct in game already but the damage bleed off is very unrealistic. Another thing to consider is that when packing 2 20s or even 1 20 in heavies or mediums that mech is also light on ammo, had to sacrifice other armaments, often has to equip a smaller engine so its slower, can't fire 2 at the same time without a serious heat penalty, then add to that its range...well it pretty much makes it useless when going up against what you typically see today...1 or more guasses, ERL vomit, PPC vomit, and LRM boats. I see you at 500MM standing there in the open just going to town with your LRMs and here I am with 2 AC20s and I'll be dead before I can close on you to even get in a single hit, I mean sure I can shoot and will probably hit you through the screen shake but you know what I ain't even scratching your armor... that's just not right

[El Bandito]

Lore. AC20 always had low range. IMO all IS ACs should have the same range as Clan ACs (or at least the heavy ones). IS AC20 should get 360 meter range, just so the Atlas can do something while waiting for the brawl to start. IS AC10 should have 540 meter range to make it more used (cause the tonnage and slots are atrocious), while IS AC5 will get 720 meter range, and IS AC2 get 900 meter range.

There will be less ballistic range quirks needed if that is the case, and they can be reduced or removed.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 December 2016 - 12:25 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

It's really dumb and something that I've been thinking a lot.
My guess is that the cartridge of the AC/20s are small in comparison to the caliber of the shell. Unlike IRL shells where the cartridge's diameter and length increases as the caliber gets bigger, I'm assuming that the AC/20 cartridge only increases in diameter, not in length and thus contains less propellant giving the AC/20 a much shorter range. I guess this is done to fit with the standardized 1 slot per ton ammo system. If it were proportional though, I guess AC/20 range would far exceed ~5 km (given that the barrel is also increased).

[Tristan Winter]

Because in the year 3050, large caliber autocannons use Diet Coke and Mentos as propellant, apparently.

I miss 2013, when the AC20 felt like a real weapon, and not like I was launching a laden African swallow carrying a coconut bomb.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

We abandon TT in many respects, I don't understand the undying loyalty to certain nonsense elements.

We accept the UAC/AC20 is a large bore slow moving projectile, right? This means 1.) It's either a very ineffective kinetic penetrator that would be terrible at short and long range. Or 2.) It's a HEAT type projectile which means it doesn't matter how it gets to the target, just that it hits the target.

If it's the former, it might shake the mech it hit, but it isn't going to do a lot of damage. If it's the latter, it doesn't matter if it hits 3km away, it's going to do the full 20 damage.

Considering the skill required to get the projectile on target, I see no purpose for the range limitations.

The range limitation on TT is likely for balancing purposes.

Looks like it's the former, which makes the least sense.

Quote

[color=#000000]The [/color]Autocannon[color=#000000] is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP ([/color]H[color=#000000]igh-[/color]E[color=#000000]xplosive [/color]A[color=#000000]rmor-[/color]P[color=#000000]iercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.[/color]
Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.^[1]
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 31 December 2016 - 01:02 AM.

[El Bandito]

Tristan Winter, on 31 December 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

Because in the year 3050, large caliber autocannons use Diet Coke and Mentos as propellant, apparently.

I miss 2013, when the AC20 felt like a real weapon, and not like I was launching a laden African swallow carrying a coconut bomb.

Blame the PPFLD meta of 2013. Back then even AC20 was fast enough to be paired with PPCs.

Tombs Clawtooth, on 31 December 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

Considering the skill required to get the projectile on target, I see no purpose for the range limitations.

The range limitation on TT is likely for balancing purposes.

Back then 20 PPFLD was a big deal, especially with Boom Jagers or Boomcats boating two of them. Now though, with the Clan mechs powercreeping everything to hell, IS AC20 and IS AC10 ranges can be safely increased.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 December 2016 - 01:02 AM.

[l33tworks]

Yea i agree ot shpuld be at least 360m.

[jss78]

I'm OK with the range brackets as such. I wouldn't try to rationalize them in RL terms, it's all about game balance and try to bring the tabletop game down to a scale where we can fit the hex maps on a table.

What I would be OK with is looking at the projectile velocities. I feel like there are distinct differences with how easy-to-use different weapons are out to their optimal ranges, and that aspect might benefit of some normalization.

To me it feels like IS AC/20 and AC/10 especially suffer in this regard. But it's morning before coffee and I can't be arsed to look at the actual "time to optimal range" numbers.

[Tristan Winter]

El Bandito, on 31 December 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Blame the PPFLD meta of 2013. Back then even AC20 was fast enough to be paired with PPCs.

I remember using the AC20 well outside of optimal range, before they made the projectile speed comically slow and neutered the optimal range to the point where the shell would basically flop to the ground at 271 meters.

I wish they would have adjusted the cooldown value instead of what they actually did.

[Navy Sixes]

El Bandito, on 31 December 2016 - 01:00 AM, said:

Back then 20 PPFLD was a big deal, especially with Boom Jagers or Boomcats boating two of them. Now though, with the Clan mechs powercreeping everything to hell, IS AC20 and IS AC10 ranges can be safely increased.

While we're at it, lets set the IS AC/2 back to .5 cool down and pre-nerf range, throw some more ammo in per ton while we're at it. Seriously, it's like they spent the first 2 years meticulously watering down the IS stuff in a cold shower just so they could spend the next 3 going apesh%t with the Clan gear.

[Random Carnage]

Play it for what it is, and accept that this game has gone too far now to ever fix. Balance can never be achieved, and the pursuit of such simply morphs all mechs toward mediocrity. If people were less fixated on balance, and more willing to roll with chassis being what they are meant to be without crying a river because their 25 tonne mech can't face tank an assault, this would be a much better game.

[l33tworks]

Tycho von Gagern, on 31 December 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

While we're at it, lets set the IS AC/2 back to .5 cool down and pre-nerf range, throw some more ammo in per ton while we're at it. Seriously, it's like they spent the first 2 years meticulously watering down the IS stuff in a cold shower just so they could spend the next 3 going apesh%t with the Clan gear.

Completelt agree ac2 needs more ammo per ton. It simply weighs far too much for what it does

[LordNothing]

typically the range of a gun goes up with caliber (though it depends on powder load and atmospheric conditions) until you got artillery pieces that can go miles. so battletech is bass akwards in this regard. i understand why from a game design point of view, but its one of those situations where realism gets shafted for the good of all. i have a feeling guns will be the go to weapon of choice for the next 1000 years or so.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Tristan Winter, on 31 December 2016 - 12:42 AM, said:

Because in the year 3050, large caliber autocannons use Diet Coke and Mentos as propellant, apparently.

Inaccurate. The IS is still using regular Coke to fire their big guns in the 3050s and the Clans are the ones that figured out the secret of switching to Diet Coke. You can clearly see this demonstrated in the tonnage differences between IS ballistics and Clan ballistics..

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 31 December 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[Lykaon]

MadIrish, on 31 December 2016 - 12:18 AM, said:

Why can't the optimal range on the AC20 be 540M with a taper off to 5 at like 2000M not 270/540 and never 0, I mean really if you can hit someone at 540M with a 200millimeter slug as slow as an AC20 taking into account movement and ballistic arc you deserve to register 20 damage and if you can do it at 1080M your having a really good day and it should do 10, if you can do it at 2160M that should still do 5 damage some I mean come-on... you just hit someone with a big, slow, unwieldy cannon with very limited ammo. The maps are typically 3kilometers max and its so annoyingly unrealistic, in 1945 during W W 2 people were lobbing 400milimeter shells over 10kilometers but in the year 3000 540M max, makes no sense. Heck LRMS do tons more damage with much more ease and no line of site BUT it gets so BORING. Now setting up an assault with 2 AC20s and hit a moving mech from 1000M now that takes some serious skill or whole lot of luck either way your gonna be like OH YA! Same with the AC10s the range is just to short, really getting pelted by CLRM20s from Tim Buk Too by someone with no line of site is ok but if I actually have to aim and maybe if I hit you with a 20 its not ok I don't get it.

I don't see what the big deal is about being able to get lucky once and while and land a long range AC20 or AC10 round on someone standing on hill lobbing those LRMs at you and having it do some decent damage. I mean the physics of the projectile is correct in game already but the damage bleed off is very unrealistic. Another thing to consider is that when packing 2 20s or even 1 20 in heavies or mediums that mech is also light on ammo, had to sacrifice other armaments, often has to equip a smaller engine so its slower, can't fire 2 at the same time without a serious heat penalty, then add to that its range...well it pretty much makes it useless when going up against what you typically see today...1 or more guasses, ERL vomit, PPC vomit, and LRM boats. I see you at 500MM standing there in the open just going to town with your LRMs and here I am with 2 AC20s and I'll be dead before I can close on you to even get in a single hit, I mean sure I can shoot and will probably hit you through the screen shake but you know what I ain't even scratching your armor... that's just not right

KDK-3 can have a 400XL two Ultra AC20s with 8 tons of ammo and 2 ER Lrg lasers. It has ample ammo good heat efficency and can run at close to 70kph..absurd for a 100 ton mech. So I fail to see any compromise for taking two class 20 cannons.

You seem to have some sort of fixation on LRMs. and some false assumptions. LRMs do require that someone has LOS to the target. LRMs DO REQUIRE line of sight.

Other friendly mechs,UAV or ECM towers on escort game mode can provide targets for LRMs.

[Bandilly]

Because it goes 9 hexes and each hex is 30 meters.

[MadIrish]

Bandilly, on 31 December 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Because it goes 9 hexes and each hex is 30 meters.

Quoting lore isn't relevant in this matter, if you use this logic the range on most other weapons needs to be reduced significantly.

The board game is also about rolling dice so the range limits account for all the human error involved as well but in MWO it needs to be bit more real since the human is actually piloting and not rolling dice meaning some pilots will only be good enough to score hits at under 300m while others might have the skill to hit a moving target at 500m or more.

Edited by MadIrish, 31 December 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

l33tworks, on 31 December 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

Yea i agree ot shpuld be at least 360m.

+++

297(?) meters range with module is just pathetic for such a big and heavy weapon.

[Felicitatem Parco]

MadIrish, on 31 December 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Quoting lore isn't relevant in this matter, if you use this logic the range on most other weapons needs to be reduced significantly.

Using logic you have to quote lore in this context. The lore is the explanation for the short ranges.

In BattleTech the autocannon weapon systems all fire bursts of shells. The AC/20 weapon system fires a burst that is so large and Powerful that it is a very inaccurate. It is so inaccurate that you can only land your shots accurately up to 270 meters. AC/10 fires a burst with fewer shells and so has less recoil and is more accurate. AC/5 fires even fewer shells and the AC/2 has the longest range because it fires only a small handful of bullets (approximately 1 tenth as many as an AC/20).

[C E Dwyer]

No weapons ranges in this game make sense, so why single out the AC20 ?

Ranges in the TT were picked purely for balance purposes, quite a few have been changed or Min effective range ignored by P.G.I.

How many weapon manufacturers are ever going to win a defence contract, by producing long range missiles that have a maximum range of only 1000, or a Machine gun with a maximum range of 240 meters..