95 replies to this topic

[Cat-in-Exile]

Appogee, on 02 January 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

I must not have been clear. He was hanging back while the enemy was in brawling range. He hung back and only stepped in when his targeting info showed him a damaged enemy was ready to be killed.

His team did most of the work. And he saw nothing wrong with sitting back and kill-stealing. He shamelessly posted a video, and commented on what he was doing.

Total *******.

He had 4 Solo Kills and 4 KMDDs. Even disregarding the easy Commando kill, it didn't seem like shameful kill stealing to me, just the result of having a lot of firepower, and, yeah, weakened opponents by the time the brawl started. It's subjective, but I didn't see what you saw from that video, and certainly nothing to call him out for it in particular. Pretty much any Ace of Spades achievement awarded required finishing off opponents worn down by teammates.

[JigglyMoobs]

This thread is why competitive players laugh at us forum posters.

Kill "stealing": if you are a light or a sniper it's your job to kill secure. A fully armed mech that is one **** away from death can still deal out full alphas again and again until they are put down. Anyone on the team with a good shot need to take the shot and finish it.

Kmdd: one guy sprays 200 damage all over every component of an Atlas' front. Light mech cones up from behind and cores it in 3 alphas. Guess who got kmdd and who actually did more?

Guys not being up front having more kdr. This is what happens when a guy with good aim and mid or long range weapons get up front in a PUG. First enemy appears, guy up front who has good aim puts in a perfect alpha. The entire enemy team focuses him. He 's critted in multiple areas, lost weapons or is no longer able to take the offense. Dies or backs up to the second line. Then spends rest of game watching aghast as teammate after potato teammate put srms and small lasers ineffectually into the terrain or, even more often, just cowers doing god knows what as that as that high kdr player on the other team who has stayed second line the whole time laughs as he farms himself to a 1000 dmg and 5 kill victory. Now player with good aim, good positioning and good build knows: stay second line, conserve armor, because you are literally carrying ≥ 50% of the true offensive damage potential on the team. Henceforth, another high kdr potato farmer is born.

You want to play to win? Communicate with your teammates and actually attack together. You will know when you are doing it right. All these stats are all misleading in different ways when it comes to mwo.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 02 January 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[Johnny Z]

JigglyMoobs, on 02 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

This thread is why competitive players laugh at us forum posters.

Kill "stealing": if you are a light or a sniper it's your job to kill secure. A fully armed mech that is one **** away from death can still deal out full alphas again and again until they are put down. Anyone on the team with a good shot need to take the shot and finish it.

Kmdd: one guy sprays 200 damage all over every component of an Atlas' front. Light mech cones up from behind and cores it in 3 alphas. Guess who got kmdd and who actually did more?

Guys not being up front having more kdr. This is what happens when a guy with good aim and mid or long range weapons get up front in a PUG. First enemy appears, guy up front who has good aim puts in a perfect alpha. The entire enemy team focuses him. He 's critted in multiple areas, lost weapons or is no longer able to take the offense. Dies or backs up to the second line. Then spends rest of game watching aghast as teammate after potato teammate put srms and small lasers ineffectually into the terrain or, even more often, just cowers doing god knows what as that as that high kdr player on the other team who has stayed second line the whole time laughs as he farms himself to a 1000 dmg and 5 kill victory. Now player with good aim, good positioning and good build knows: stay second line, conserve armor, because you are literally carrying ≥ 50% of the true offensive damage potential on the team. Henceforth, another high kdr potato farmer is born.

You want to play to win? Communicate with your teammates and actually attack together. You will know when you are doing it right. All these stats are all misleading in different ways when it comes to mwo.

That's ok "competitive' players are funny at the moment. The claim that clan mechs are easy mode for newbies but not experienced players is funny. Then during the WC "competitive" players yoloing straight into Kodiaks without dodging or anything was quite funny to watch.

[Y E O N N E]

Johnny Z, on 02 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

That's ok "competitive' players are funny at the moment. The claim that clan mechs are easy mode for newbies but not experienced players is funny. Then during the WC "competitive" players yoloing straight into Kodiaks without dodging or anything was quite funny to watch.

And the teams that did that lost. Badly. But even the ones that shot them to pieces have the same opinion on Clan 'Mechs.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 02 January 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Lily from animove]

JigglyMoobs, on 02 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

This thread is why competitive players laugh at us forum posters.

Not entirely, because it depends how the game works.

When someone steals a kill, this means he tries to secure the kill by holding fire back for the right moment.
In a competitive environment this wouldn'T happen, you apply the damage as soon as possible to take out a mech.

But holding back the fire to allow the opponent mech to live longer or apply more damage just to get the killing shot on it, that is vey much kill stealing. And this is where it differs from just being the one doing the last damage to kill an opponent and the stealing intention. Some jokefully say "killsteal" when they come around the corner and finish a heavily dead mech someone else is shooting. but thats not real killstealing.

Edited by Lily from animove, 03 January 2017 - 04:46 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Stormie, on 01 January 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Problem with all that is that the best bet for maximising the chance of your side winning is to murderball up with all 12 mechs and hope the other poor suckers had 1 or 2 mechs stupid enough to play the objectives. Either they also deathballed and it effectively becomes a skirmish game, or they had mechs run off, you kill the biggest group with your overwhelming numbers taking fewer losses because of focus fire and then you go clean up the dregs and or finish the objective whichever you prefer.
Sucks but due to the nature of the game it will always play this way unless fundamental changes are made. And all the changes PGI are looking to make (increasing TTK) makes a deathball/focus fire strategy even more mandatory.
Sucks for those of us that like to play objectives, but if you want to win its what you do.

The ONLY way to have people consistently play objectives is if you add respawn, its that simple.

1) Killing mechs is fun
2) Completing objectives when there are no enemies to stop you is easy.
3) The end.

Im not campaigning for respawn, but then i don't care if people play objectives since im here to shoot lasers at stompy robots.

[Natural Predator]

The best indicator in my opinion would be KMDD divided by number of games played. If you have 400 kmdd but 200 games played that's not a good indicator. If you have 400 kmdd and 50 games played that illustrates your beating up mechs pretty hard.

[Lily from animove]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 03 January 2017 - 04:13 AM, said:

The best indicator in my opinion would be KMDD divided by number of games played. If you have 400 kmdd but 200 games played that's not a good indicator. If you have 400 kmdd and 50 games played that illustrates your beating up mechs pretty hard.

or spammign lrms and ssrms on mechs. I once saw a MDD shooting 4 volleysof 6srm6's into an assault which surely gets him a KMDD should that assualt die, yet the significant amount of critical damage to kill that mech was abyssimal bad. KMDD famring is as real as kill stealing.

[Kwea]

Kshahdoo, on 01 January 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

Of course I mean PUGs, because PUGs play for a personal statistics and units play for wins, but 80% of games (probably more) are played in PUGs, so they do about about 4 times better presentation of the game, than organized matches.

If you play with PUGs and think people are here for the same reason as you, i.e. win the game, it's a big mistake. Wining means nothing, if you have all the mechs you need and don't need XP and CBs anymore. And thinking that w/l is that meaningful, when you play mostly with PUGs, is about as right as thinking people become politicians because they love their countries. But of course the better player the better chance he will help his teams to win more matches, so his w/l can be pretty good as well.

And this is what is wrong with the game, and why players get fed up with PUGs. Go hide and protect that KDR, it means nothing.

[Kwea]

Van Hoven, on 02 January 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Sitting back not as in being 500m away, but as in not leading the charge, position yourself that you are unlikely getting focused and that kind of stuff. Ofc dealing 1000dmg is contributing to the win, but to achieve that regularly you have to abuse your teammates as meatshields most of the time.

that may be how some players do it, but not everyone. I am not a great player and I AVERAGE about 400-600 per pug drop, and I have teammates who put out 900 plus damage in cicadas with 5 mpl. I do 1000 damage brawling in heavies and assaults fairly often, and I usually lead the charge while calling.

[QuantumButler]

Kshahdoo, on 01 January 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

Of course I mean PUGs, because PUGs play for a personal statistics and units play for wins, but 80% of games (probably more) are played in PUGs, so they do about about 4 times better presentation of the game, than organized matches.

If you play with PUGs and think people are here for the same reason as you, i.e. win the game, it's a big mistake. Wining means nothing, if you have all the mechs you need and don't need XP and CBs anymore. And thinking that w/l is that meaningful, when you play mostly with PUGs, is about as right as thinking people become politicians because they love their countries. But of course the better player the better chance he will help his teams to win more matches, so his w/l can be pretty good as well.

Nope, k/d doesn't matter, w/l doesn't matter, only the cold hard cash.

I have a billion robots, I have the best most meta robots mastered, I don't really "need" cbills anymore.

But cbills are still the only thing I care about.

I always vote for conquest because it has the biggest CBill payout, I build my multiplier until I can force it if need be, I mostly play FW because of the 1million CB per match or more.

Edited by QuantumButler, 03 January 2017 - 05:42 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Kwea, on 03 January 2017 - 04:59 AM, said:

that may be how some players do it, but not everyone. I am not a great player and I AVERAGE about 400-600 per pug drop, and I have teammates who put out 900 plus damage in cicadas with 5 mpl. I do 1000 damage brawling in heavies and assaults fairly often, and I usually lead the charge while calling.

from your season 6 numbers, your mediums average 206 and your heavies average 290 match score. no assaults.

if you compare it to my stats, i play almost heavies exclusively, and season 6, my average match score is 315 for heavies.and i barely squeak in more than 400 damage per match on average.

so either you're inflating your average damage numbers or something is borked with your match xp. because you're getting a lower match score while having similar kdr and doing 25%+ more damage than i do.

[Zergling]

In my experience, average damage is about 1.5-1.6 times average match score.

200 match score = about 300-320 average damage
300 match score = about 450-480 average damage

[Wil McCullough]

Zergling, on 03 January 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

In my experience, average damage is about 1.5-1.6 times average match score.

200 match score = about 300-320 average damage
300 match score = about 450-480 average damage

strange. my stats show about 390++ per and my match score is 315.

[Zergling]

Wil McCullough, on 03 January 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

strange. my stats show about 390++ per and my match score is 315.

I guess it's different for other players.


Just looking at the results for a random battle I screenshotted:
Lowest Damage/Match Score ratio = 0.92
Highest Damage/Match Score ratio = 1.85
Average on winning team = 1.45
Average on losing team = 1.75
Average for both teams combined = 1.56


Another random battle:
Lowest Damage/Match Score ratio = 0.33
Highest Damage/Match Score ratio = 1.83
Average on winning team = 1.36
Average on losing team = 1.63
Average for both teams combined = 1.47

The average is probably around 1.5, but there is obviously a great deal of variation possible.

Edited by Zergling, 03 January 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[Quxudica]

Appogee, on 01 January 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

Kill/Death isn't enough by itself, because some pathetic souls deliberately inflate their stats by kill-stealing.

This statement is beyond silly. There is no such thing as "Kill Stealing". You see an enemy you take a shot, that's how it works. If you see a badly damaged enemy brawling with a teammate, you don't just bloody stand there. You dump an alpha in it to knock it out, doing so saves that teammate from taking some unnecessary damage from a fight they already won and gets that teammates firepower onto the next target sooner. If you see a completely stripped mech running around your team, you put a hole in its core because that stripped mech is spotting (and potentially impeding movement). Now if you ignore functional mechs to chase a stripped one across the map or if you keep focusing a mech you stripped in a brawl while others are shooting you then yeah, you're being an idiot. But this idea that "kill stealing" is a real thing is asinine and those who whinge about it are just as overly concerned with their K/D as they accuse the so-called "Kill Stealer" of being.

[Natred]

Wins > kills > damage > objectives > class role

[Wil McCullough]

Zergling, on 03 January 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

I guess it's different for other players.


Just looking at the results for a random battle I screenshotted:
Lowest Damage/Match Score ratio = 0.92
Highest Damage/Match Score ratio = 1.85
Average on winning team = 1.45
Average on losing team = 1.75
Average for both teams combined = 1.56


Another random battle:
Lowest Damage/Match Score ratio = 0.33
Highest Damage/Match Score ratio = 1.83
Average on winning team = 1.36
Average on losing team = 1.63
Average for both teams combined = 1.47

The average is probably around 1.5, but there is obviously a great deal of variation possible.

that's interesting to note. i'm gonna monitor my own numbers to see if it heads towards that 1.5 mark

[xTrident]

I personally try to be in the middle. Whenever I'm the first one in battle I feel like I have zero support and get my *** kicked. And I don't care to be last because I don't feel I supported the team as well as I should have.

That being the case whenever working right in the "middle" of providing support of damage dealt as well as damage received the KMDD's and kills just seem to come. Typically won't the winners accumulate more kills which will then give them a higher K/D?

[Appogee]

Quxudica, on 03 January 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

This statement is beyond silly. There is no such thing as "Kill Stealing". You see an enemy you take a shot, that's how it works. If you see a badly damaged enemy brawling with a teammate, you don't just bloody stand there.

You do. I do. Unfortunately, some others don't.

I explained later in the thread exactly what those others do.

Quxudica, on 03 January 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

But this idea that "kill stealing" is a real thing is asinine and those who whinge about it are just as overly concerned with their K/D as they accuse the so-called "Kill Stealer" of being.

Ignorance must be very blissful for you.

xTrident, on 03 January 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I personally try to be in the middle. Whenever I'm the first one in battle I feel like I have zero support and get my *** kicked. And I don't care to be last because I don't feel I supported the team as well as I should have.

If we all did that, we'd all be standing around waiting for someone to "go first".

In fact, if you PUG a lot you will see exactly that ... Mechs standing around in a group behind cover, waiting for someone else to engage. And unfortunately, that often ends in the group getting pincered by a less fearful enemy.