121 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

Useful mechs(like Timber W or Ebon J) does not

TW UP PGI PLZ FIX.

[Lily from animove]

Novakaine, on 02 January 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

I think the population here needs some balancing.
Disingenuous bunch of..........

your davion signature emblem needs a fix, i am sure its wider than high, and thats not how circles are supposed to work.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Novakaine]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

your davion signature emblem needs a fix, i am sure its wider than high, and thats not how circles are supposed to work.

I get right on that, but for now there's a volcano erupting in Peru.........

[brroleg]

IS fanboys shitposting to kill the thread. I see what you doing

[RestosIII]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

IS fanboys shitposting to kill the thread. I see what you doing

I'm a Clan loyalist and I'm shitposting, because you're horribly wrong.

[Bombast]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Heatsinks still a thing. Clan ERLL on average need 2 more heatsinks per 1 ERLL than IS. So making Clan ERLL effectively weight 6 tons

I'm curious how you did that math. Admittedly, Clan mechs do get hotter, and need a few more heat sinks then their Inner Sphere counterparts, but two per ERLL? How do you figure that? How many ERLLs is this test mech firing? How far do the 10 minimum DHSs go before requiring all these extra DHSs?

[brroleg]

Bombast, on 02 January 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'm curious how you did that math. Admittedly, Clan mechs do get hotter, and need a few more heat sinks then their Inner Sphere counterparts, but two per ERLL? How do you figure that? How many ERLLs is this test mech firing? How far do the 10 minimum DHSs go before requiring all these extra DHSs?

Here http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER LRG LASER
HPS: 2.11

ER LARGE LASER
HPS: 1.78

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation(both for IS and Clan): 0.15

2.11-1.78 = 0.33

Even a little more than 2 heatsinks

[C E Dwyer]

HSR hates you

[Dimento Graven]

<sigh>

Seriously?

Do you know just how bad at this game you have to be to believe that IS is OP?

I'll post this one more time for the slow and hard headed out there:

Clans have more 'mech options that can enjoy the Speed + Fire Power + Survivability trifecta that every 'mech, Clan or IS, aspires to achieve.

Clan technology provides them so many more benefits that help them attain this trifecta, while for the vast majority of IS chassis, you have to compromise AT LEAST one of the 3 (more often TWO of the 3) to have a 'mech that's moderately viable.

Clan 'mechs enjoy:
Free CASE in every section of 'mech.
Smaller Endo Steel structure
Smaller Ferro Fibrous
Smaller double heat sinks
For the most part, smaller weapons.
Smaller XL engines
For the most part, lighter weapons.
For the most part, longer reaching weapons.
For the most part, harder hitting weapons.
EVERY 'mech has the option to load up a TC.
EVERY XL is 100% ST loss survivable.

These facts are what contribute to the 'illusion' that Clan 'mechs are hotter, because the weapons and equipment are smaller and lighter, Clan 'mechs in general can load up LARGER alphas (more weapons) than their IS equivalents AND be able to move at a higher rate of speed. More weapons firing in an alpha typically means more heat.

The problem isn't that Clan weapons are hotter, it's the 'alpha centric' firing control most players practice... "GOTTA FIRE ALL MUH WEAPONS ALL THE TIME, DERP DERP DERP DERP!!" Players who understand fire control are damned deadly in Clan 'mechs. Of course, they'd be deadly in IS 'mechs too, just less so because of the smaller alphas, slower speed, and possibly, the more explody XL they might load.

Example:
I'm Tier 1, and even though I should be going against people who are no less experienced than Tier 3, I >>STILL<< observe people firing ALL their weapons EVERY shot, REGARDLESS of what's actually in range. Some nitwit was in some Clan 'mech, can't remember which one, one of the chassis that allow craploads of lasers, THIS idiot had loaded LPL's, MPL's and SPL's. He had a target somewhere near 1100 meters away and was ALPHA'ing ALL his lasers, not even chain firing, but straight on alpha'ing. I think it was after the 3rd alpha he over heated and proceeded to piss and moan how it's not fair Clan 'mechs run so hot.

When I mentioned that maybe he should try only firing the weapons that could actually reach the target, this waste of humanity starts a screaming pissfest.

Anyway, kind of bored with this subject because PGI has been just so bad at balance, historically.

Fact is, I ran the Jaeger with dual gauss and dual ML's, for a LONG time. Then the HBK-IIC's came out, and the MEDIUM HBK-IIC is a better Jaeger than the Jaeger is.

I also ran the KGC with dual gauss and dual ERLL's for a LONG time. Then the Gyr came out, and the HEAVY Night Gyr is a better King Crab than the KGC is.

Why? The trifecta:

The HBK-IIC and Night Gyr enjoy Fire Power + Speed + Survivability that the heavier IS 'mechs can't match.

Sad, but true.

Bombast, on 02 January 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

...

Admittedly, Clan mechs do get hotter, and need a few more heat sinks then their Inner Sphere counterparts, but two per ERLL? How do you figure that? How many ERLLs is this test mech firing? How far do the 10 minimum DHSs go before requiring all these extra DHSs?

FYI: They only need more heat sinks because they're typically bringing MORE lasers than their IS equivalents, but let's not let pesky little details like that obscure opinions.

[Dimento Graven]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Here http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER LRG LASER
HPS: 2.11

ER LARGE LASER
HPS: 1.78

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation(both for IS and Clan): 0.15

2.11-1.78 = 0.33

Even a little more than 2 heatsinks

Yeah, but you're leaving out all the OTHER important stats, lessee:

C-ERLL does 2 more points of damage than IS does.
C-ERLL has a longer range than the IS does.
C-ERLL is one ton LESS weight than the IS.
C-ERLL requires one less crit slot than the IS.

So, yeah, maybe it running a little hotter is just a side affect of all the OTHER benefits the Clans get with their version?

[brroleg]

Dimento Graven, on 02 January 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

C-ERLL has a longer range than the IS does.

Nope. Almost every IS mech has +10% energy range. Those making C-ERLL and IS ERLL Equivalent in range.

Quote

C-ERLL is one ton LESS weight than the IS.
C-ERLL requires one less crit slot than the IS

Nope. C-ERLL must have +2t (and +4 crit slots) of heatsinks to compensate more heat. Those making C-ERLL one ton (and three crit slots) MORE than the IS

Edited by brroleg, 02 January 2017 - 09:22 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Bombast, on 02 January 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

I'm curious how you did that math. Admittedly, Clan mechs do get hotter, and need a few more heat sinks then their Inner Sphere counterparts, but two per ERLL? How do you figure that? How many ERLLs is this test mech firing? How far do the 10 minimum DHSs go before requiring all these extra DHSs?

well a IS ERLl generates 8 heat in 4.5s the clan 10heat in 4.75s

thats then 1,7777 HPS for the Is ERLL and 2,1053 for the clan one.

this means a delta of 0,3276 heat/s the clanlaser generates more.

Now that I forgot how much aDHS + masteredskill dissipates I dunno by how much dissipation to divide that value.

Can you do that pelase?




However if we want to argue also about the damage/heatefficiency, we need to use other values.
And I think the heatefficiency is a WAY more important thing when comparing the weaponsystems that will heat reach heatcap.

the ERLL is 9 damage for 8 heat. this means we invest 0.8888 heat/damage
the c-ERLL is 11dmg for 10 heat that means we invest 0,9091 heat/damage.

so the c-erll is 0,0202 heat more per damage done.

at this point, both lasers look fairly equal in their generation value from heat to damage as it only differs by 2%.
But there is that two things they differ in which can hardly be measured: Thats beamduration, which is abyssimal on the clanmech, and then there is range which is obviously better on the Clanmech. So on a tonnage based topic you can say clans get more form their ERLL because they spent one ton less for a near identical result.

However for my personal taste the CERLL burns way to long and this spreads too much damage which isn't worth the tonnage. I find that the ISERLL and even CERML burntimes are already also too long as well. Further you can stack 3ISLL into one shot, while clanners can't without serious heatpenalty.
So honestly together with some heatquirks or beamduration quirks, the IS ERLL is the better choice in my opinion. Sure clanERLL has better range but the maps provide plenty of terrain to avoid the clan ERLL range advantage

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[brroleg]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Sure clanERLL has better range

It does not. You will have hard time to find IS mech without +10% energy range. And IS ERLL with +10% energy range = C-ERLL range.



Turn on windows Calculator and type
1350 (standart max range of IS ERLL)
+
10
%
=

and you will get 1485

now check what max range is for C-ERLL

hint: 1480

Edited by brroleg, 02 January 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Lily from animove]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

It does not. You will have hard time to find IS mech without +10% energy range. And IS ERLL with +10% energy range = C-ERLL range.



Turn on windows Calculator and type
1350 (standart max range of IS ERLL)
+
10
%
=

and you will get 1485

now check what max range is for C-ERLL

hint: 1480

They are (still, if quirked) fairly equal in the end, the only tradeoff is that the clanversion does more damage per shot for less tonage yet pays that tonnage with a worse beamduration. What makes the ISERLL better is simply playerksill, because no somewhat decent player will make you land all that 1.5secs beamduration in one component.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2017 - 09:22 AM.

[Bombast]

Dimento Graven, on 02 January 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

FYI: They only need more heat sinks because they're typically bringing MORE lasers than their IS equivalents, but let's not let pesky little details like that obscure opinions.

You'll get no argument from me. Of course, if you do manage to get a Clan mech and an Inner Sphere mech that have the same exact (Energy) load out (Which usually involves mechs of different tonnages, or jump hets), the Clan mech will be hotter. But seeing as how their energy weapons do more damage per ton, that seem appropriate.

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Here http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER LRG LASER
HPS: 2.11

ER LARGE LASER
HPS: 1.78

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation(both for IS and Clan): 0.15

2.11-1.78 = 0.33

Even a little more than 2 heatsinks

Ok, you know what? Let's try something.

For the sake of argument, lets say that, without contest, the Inner Sphere ERLL is better then the Clan ERLL, by every metric.

Now what? I'll give you one weapon, that wasn't even included in your original post. Lets rock, brroleg - Where is the rest of the Inner Sphere's OP weaponry and quirks?

Edited by Bombast, 02 January 2017 - 09:34 AM.

[brroleg]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

clanversion does more damage per shot for less tonage yet pays that tonnage

Nope. It does it for more tonage (for additional 2 tons and 4 critslots of heatsinks)

here is exact stats http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER LRG LASER
HPS (heat per second): 2.11

ER LARGE LASER
HPS (heat per second): 1.78

2.11-1.78 = 0.33

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation rate (both for IS and Clan): 0.15

0.33 / 0.15 = 2.2

Clan ERLL needs 2.2 more heatsinks.

Clane ERLL weight 4t
Double heatsink weight 1t

4+1+1 = 6 ton

6 ton is true weight of C-ERLL

Edited by brroleg, 02 January 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Mcgral18]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

It does not. You will have hard time to find IS mech without +10% energy range. And IS ERLL with +10% energy range = C-ERLL range.



Turn on windows Calculator and type
1350 (standart max range of IS ERLL)
+
10
%
=

and you will get 1485

now check what max range is for C-ERLL

hint: 1480

You seem to be going FULL Potato here
Who doesn't bring at least a TC1 with lasers? That adds 4% right there

Can you do the Maths yourself?
1539M, if you can't


Certified proof right here guys, Clams OP

[Lily from animove]

no barroleg it does that NOT for more tonnage with your example you equal out the HPS which means you make both weapons have the same heat but you end up with a weaponsystem doing more damage per shot.

correct comparison is at efficiency values not at raw values. Also your calculation is missing the maserskills. I think that was 15%

Your done "true" weight is a comparison for raw damage.
in that case you end up with +20%tonnage compared to is. But in return the ClanERLl also has 22% more damage compared to the ISERLL. So even form this point of view it is totally fair. yes it needs more crits, but clans have plenty of crit slots. And in this case the clanlasers DOES MORE for being MORE tonnage also.

The most retsrictive ressource when using lasers is your heat and choosing the most heatefficient laser is important because during compat heat is transformed into damage. and Applying this damage properly are the factors.
Thats the reaosn why no one uses the ISERLL while on paper they are well balanced beam duration ruins it. Thats why clanners mostly use LPL, there is no need for the long beamduration, they are a LOT more heatefficient, better pinpoint and have a well situated range. But the IS one is surely not OP. It's just a bit better because of the beam duration. But as much as the CERLL is the useless niche on the top of the lasers, as much is the ISSL the useless one at the bottom because it's range is so short and damage so low, no one needs it. All the other lasers against each others are actually very well balanced with havign their own niches and ups and downs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[brroleg]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

Who doesn't bring at least a TC1 with lasers?

Can you do the Maths yourself?

Sure. Lets count for two C-ERLL build.
Each C-ERLL needs additional 2 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

2 * Clan ERLL + 4 Double Heatsinks + 1TC = 13 ton and 11 crit slots for 1539 range

Now lets count for two IS ERLL build

2 * IS ERLL = 10 ton and 4 crit slots for 1485 (cause +10% quirk on every mech) range

So clan pays additional 3 tons and 7 crit slots for 54m range advantage.

Quote

but you end up with a weaponsystem doing more damage per shot

Which is negated by longer burn time

Quote

Also your calculation is missing the maserskills.

They equal for both sides, so does not matter.

Edited by brroleg, 02 January 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Mcgral18]

brroleg, on 02 January 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Sure. Lets count for two C-ERLL build.
Each C-ERLL needs additional 2 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

2 * Clan ERLL + 4 Double Heatsinks + 1TC = 13 ton and 11 crit slots for 1539 range

Now lets count for two IS ERLL build

2 * IS ERLL = 10 ton and 4 crit slots for 1485 range

So clan pays additional 3 tons and 7 crit slots for 54m range advantage.

And a 4 damage advantage, with faster damage application
You need 3 isERLLs to compare, with is an added 5 tons, 2 Crits, and hotter.