13 replies to this topic

[Shade72]

-Playing shadowcat (my favourite mech)
Full armor on the legs, 3-4 med lasers shots on each and i die

Nearly full front core armor, 2 gauss shots, dead

-Switch to hunchback

Case protected ammo, explodes and damages everything anyway

Moved ammo to legs, unsure of what the hell i should do, arms get ripped, torso damaged

-Moves on to heavy mechs, maybe they can take more hits

First match with dragon, engine destroyed by a single gauss shot

Seriously, WTF? How can the TTK be so low even though all my mechs are zombies? This is starting to really tick me off

[Tiantara]

Shade72, on 02 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

-Playing shadowcat (my favourite mech)
Full armor on the legs, 3-4 med lasers shots on each and i die

Nearly full front core armor, 2 gauss shots, dead

- Shadow Cat best if you have ECM on them and run fast. Legs are weak point of that mech. Also - they may be damaged by jumps if you do them too high. So, yeap - that mech better as stealth assasin or sniper. You can't brawl on that, unless you great pilot.

Shade72, on 02 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

-Switch to hunchback

Case protected ammo, explodes and damages everything anyway

Moved ammo to legs, unsure of what the hell i should do, arms get ripped, torso damaged

- HBK Clan or IS? If second - yeap, that happens. If Clan - ammo explosion damaged everithing what placed near in same part of mech. But, damage don't go to other parts. Also - maybe your build not good enough. Medium mech hard to pilot and build after all.

Shade72, on 02 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

-Moves on to heavy mechs, maybe they can take more hits

First match with dragon, engine destroyed by a single gauss shot

Seriously, WTF? How can the TTK be so low even though all my mechs are zombies? This is starting to really tick me off

- Gratz! You take worst mech from possible. Dragon not good mech last few years. They easy killed with XL engine and easy killed with STD, because of body geometry. Single gauss shot maybe x2 (double gauss often used in game) So - if you catch shot in back - you dead. If you place low armor in front - you dead also. And yes, Dragon not heavy mech by survivability class.. It's something between heavy and medium for me. Better take something like - Ebon Jaguar, Catapult, Warhammer...

[Koniving]

Shade72, on 02 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Seriously, WTF? How can the TTK be so low even though all my mechs are zombies? This is starting to really tick me off

"Damage" might list a single Gauss Rifle... but there can be 10 Gauss Rifles in that one hit, and it would only say "Damage by Gauss Rifle."

Please use Smurfy here to show me your builds so we can see what is going on.
Or if you have premium time, I can take you into a private match and hit you with all the Gauss Rifles you could ever want to show you that there's "something else" going on that you aren't telling us or not aware of.

Also: If you're deliberately building zombies you may be unintentionally digging your own grave.

[Tarl Cabot]

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

You can also see it in the mechlab.

Is your armor maxed out as most mechs do not have by default maximum armor equipped? Do you have your armor front-loaded? Most mechs come with 10-20ish points of armor on the rear sections, reduce that to 4-7pts then move the rest to the front sections of the RT/CT/LT.

Shadowcat - legs, default amount 36 armor pts/22 internal str pts. The max amount you can put on that mech's legs is 44 armor pts/22 is pts. Max amount armor is 2x the default internal structure pts. So 44+22 = 66pts of damage before each leg is destroyed. Jumping and not saving enough fuel to soften the landing will damage the legs.

Also on smaller, faster mechs, experienced players will try to "leg" the amount to prevent it from getting/jumping away, allowing for an easier kill.

CASE - free in Clan mechs. Prevents ammo explosion from transferring to the next INNER section. Arms > ST > CT. Legs >ST > CT. If at side torso is destroyed, the arm attached to it is also removed.

As for the Innersphere's version of the XL engine, lets just say that it is partially frak up that it is destroyed when a side torso is destroyed based on the original boardgame rules, but then dice determined hit/miss and where that damage is to be applied, while the Clan's XL engine only sees a 20% heat./movement penalty.

One of the threads asking for a change to that.. I wil not say anymore about it.

https://mwomercs.com...nesis-clanvote/

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 January 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[DavidStarr]

Koniving, on 02 January 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

Also: If you're deliberately building zombies you may be unintentionally digging your own grave.

How do you mean? Is it just the fact that such mechs may be gimped in damage output before they become zombies (if at all)?

Edited by DavidStarr, 06 January 2017 - 04:14 AM.

[Vlad Striker]

Shade, don't ever try to face of assault mech on med mech. You have less armor and possible less firepower. Watch mini-map and use seismic sensor module if you play in low-speed configuration. You could be defeated from back by some light mech and cant figuring out why your mech was destroyed.

[Koniving]

DavidStarr, on 06 January 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

How do you mean? Is it just the fact that such mechs may be gimped in damage output before they become zombies (if at all)?

People building "zombies" tend to ditch armor in the arms and the like -- which this trick only works with 'some' mechs. Specifically those whose destroyed arm hitboxes are exceptionally large. It also implies that the player is well aware of the need to twist to survive. Most players are NOT aware of this, and such build a "zombie" out of a 'Mech whose arm hitboxes will NOT protect them after being destroyed (and allow them to easily be destroyed due to not armoring them)... and thus already their torsos are heavily exposed. Furthermore about half the mechs you can 'zombie' have gigantic center torsos and tiny side torsos, further reducing the amount of "zombie" these zombies can actually do since the side torsos would be useless in absorbing and reducing overall damage.

For example if you were to zombie the classic Zombie King, aka the Centurion... I'd laugh at you, shoot you in the groin, and you'd likely be one to two shotted. It doesn't work anymore.

And even if I didn't just shoot you in the groin, the CT's so wide that even at 91 meters I could plant two AC/20s or as many PPCs as I want on the CT without having to worry about any close range convergence spread. Bam you're screwed.

You could line up a number of "zombie" mechs and they would be taken out much like this.

(but to CTs / pelvises, obviously.)

Edited by Koniving, 06 January 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 02 January 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

"Damage" might list a single Gauss Rifle... but there can be 10 Gauss Rifles in that one hit, and it would only say "Damage by Gauss Rifle."

Please use Smurfy here to show me your builds so we can see what is going on.
Or if you have premium time, I can take you into a private match and hit you with all the Gauss Rifles you could ever want to show you that there's "something else" going on that you aren't telling us or not aware of.

Also: If you're deliberately building zombies you may be unintentionally digging your own grave.

I will grant that your information is correct.

However, I'll also mention that something has been up with damage counts lately, so he may also "be right"... (but your explanation seems far more likely).

I had a match against someone (not that it matters, but he was a high tier player when I was in group queue), and he was in a Summoner and I in an Adder. He was using the dual ERPPC build (20 points pin point damage, 10 points splash damage). I have 38 points of armor on my Adder's front CT. He shot me twice (was only him and me), first shot cut off all my armor. Second shot, and I was dead. Third shot, and he managed to kill another teammate of mine... (And, I'm really certain no one else on his team could shoot me. I approached in a manner to specifically get at just him.) I had no damage to my CT before hand.

I don't exactly know what happened there (and no, I'm not saying he did anything, if you know what I mean), but something did not seem right at all. That was 40 points of damage, which should have just barely gotten through my armor. Instead, it seemed to have acted more like 60+ points of damage, which would have killed my mech.

I will admit that I had taken a bit of laser fire previously, which had turned my side torso and arm yellow armor, but my CT was completely untouched when I engaged that opponent. I still haven't figured out how so much damage was able to be applied to my mech in two alphas. It almost seems like CERPPCs have a hit/damage issue. Sometimes, every other shot will register (if you chain fire them rapidly, the second one doesn't always seem to apply it's damage), and other times it's like it's a 15 damage pin point, instead of 10 damage with 5 splash to the sides...

Just... something I've noticed between being shot and my own shots hitting that I've recently noticed since the Linebacker's release. I could be completely mistaken and maybe I missed something... but something just hasn't seemed right for a while. (I didn't start to use dual CERPPCs till the Linebacker was released.)


Just... something to maybe consider?

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 06 January 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

I will grant that your information is correct.

However, I'll also mention that something has been up with damage counts lately, so he may also "be right"... (but your explanation seems far more likely).

I had a match against someone (not that it matters, but he was a high tier player when I was in group queue), and he was in a Summoner and I in an Adder. He was using the dual ERPPC build (20 points pin point damage, 10 points splash damage). I have 38 points of armor on my Adder's front CT. He shot me twice (was only him and me), first shot cut off all my armor. Second shot, and I was dead. Third shot, and he managed to kill another teammate of mine... (And, I'm really certain no one else on his team could shoot me. I approached in a manner to specifically get at just him.) I had no damage to my CT before hand.

Just... something to maybe consider?

Welcome to the reality of something I've been fighting against for a while that PGI came up with ages ago...
The reason why "structure" quirks suck despite how people favor them over armor quirks... is that "Crits" exist.

You got hit with two Clan ER PPCs, assuming they are at the same time..
This automatically entitles him to not just 2, but 6 Crit checks.
Center of impact Per ER PPC.
Left of impact Per ER PPC
Right of impact Per ER PPC.
Each crit check can do up to 3 crits.
Maximum potential of 18 "crits" (extremely unlikely).
It is unknown but highly suspected that if the center of impact has no armor, crits could be checked for the side torsos. Even if not, the core problem still remains.

15% of the damage delivered by each "Crit" will, in turn, be added to your Structural Damage.

Lets assume that just one crit occurs for the area of impact (10 damage). 15% of that turns into 1.5 bonus damage.

Lets assume all the dice are against you...

60 Crit damage to CT, 15 Crit damage to LT, 15 Crit damage to RT.
15% of each gets added to structure damage.
9 CT. 2.25 bonus damage to LT. 2.25 bonus damage to RT.
Total damage dealt: 49 CT, 9.75 LT, 9.75 RT.
Total components likely destroyed: 8 pieces of equipment destroyed.
(Note this scenario is super unlikely as it applies everything triple crit)

Welcome to heck. Do NOT leave anything without armor, period.
"Structure" quirks aren't the be-all end-all either, just a bandaid.

Unlike a PPC, lasers do crit checks every 'tick', and the amount of damage is very minimal, so the amount of bonus damage from each success is also pretty minimal. A PPC and an IS AC... will ruin your day.

Edited by Koniving, 06 January 2017 - 05:20 PM.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 06 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

Unlike a PPC, lasers do crit checks every 'tick', and the amount of damage is very minimal, so the amount of bonus damage from each success is also pretty minimal. A PPC and an IS AC... will ruin your day.

My problem wasn't how fast I dropped once I lost the armor... My issue was that a dual CERPPC hit to the CT stipped off 38 points of armor and left me with yellow internals. A single alpha of that. That "should" have been 20 damage to the CT and 5 damage to each side torso, which should not have cut through my armor at all, and thus should not have caused any crits. I should have had 18 points of armor left on my CT but instead had no armor left.

Then the second hit happened. If my armor hadn't magically become stripped, I should have taken an additional 20 points of damage from his second alpha, which should have finished my remaining 18 points of CT armor, and delivered 2 structure damage (plus any crit damage). However, instead I was just dead on the second alpha.

I just don't know how that happened. The math (for my armor at least) doesn't add up. Now, if someone else on his team could have hit me, then that would have been different. But it was just me and him. I made sure terrain was between me and his friends, and even then they wouldn't have been able to hit my CT (except from the back, but my back armor was still untouched when I died). I wish I did recordings and had recorded the match. Then I could rewatch it and see what happened, and then be able to tell if something strange happened or not...

[Koniving]

Tesunie, on 06 January 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

My problem wasn't how fast I dropped once I lost the armor... My issue was that a dual CERPPC hit to the CT stipped off 38 points of armor and left me with yellow internals. A single alpha of that. That "should" have been 20 damage to the CT and 5 damage to each side torso, which should not have cut through my armor at all, and thus should not have caused any crits. I should have had 18 points of armor left on my CT but instead had no armor left.

You are certain it wasn't a quad ER PPC? I've heard that's becoming popular again.

(First minute)
Or that you may have missed what hit you, or more importantly been more hurt by the laser than you thought? It is a laser vomit meta after all, few if anyone has fewer than 4 lasers at any one time.

Assuming some of your armor was stripped by lasers, you could have easily had 20 or less armor left.

(And one last thing to note: Yellow means less than 100% but greater than or equal to 75%.
Subsequently, dark yellow is less than 75% but greater than or equal to 50%.
Orange is less than 50% but greater than 25%.
Red is 25% or less (but greater than 10%).
Cherry red is 10% or less.

Edited by Koniving, 06 January 2017 - 06:11 PM.

[Tesunie]

Koniving, on 06 January 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

Or that you may have missed what hit you, or more importantly been more hurt by the laser than you thought? It is a laser vomit meta after all, few if anyone has fewer than 4 lasers at any one time.

Assuming some of your armor was stripped by lasers, you could have easily had 20 or less armor left.

I'm 99% certain it was a dual ERPPC Summoner I was facing. I can't see how a Summoner could possibly (and effectively) field more than that. And I'm also very certain that my CT was completely untouched before I engaged that Summoner. I had been nicked in the side and arm to yellow armor, but as those components were not hit by the Summoner (I died by CT damage), I don't think that had any additional influence in my death. (I'm not going to say he couldn't have somehow had 3 ERPPCs, but last I recall that would be too heavy for a Summoner to field, not to mention too hot to do 3 alphas back to back.)

As I said, it was very strange, and I've had things like that happen to be a few times. I've even noticed it with my Linebacker (also dual CERPPCs), where I seemed to have caused more damage than I believed I should have caused, ending matches with 600-800 damage. (Current per match average for my Linebacker Prime (with build shifts included) is 358 after 75 matches.) I don't believe I'm "that good" of a pilot to pull numbers like that so regularly. (Though, the Linebacker does handle like a medium, and I am good with medium mechs.)


I'm just going to guess you haven't noticed any such problems yourself then. It could be completely just me, and I just had an odd match with my Adder (and other various times I noticed and dismissed it). I'm not unwilling to admit such a thing. It could just be completely me and nothing is wrong... I just wish I could prove or disprove what happened.

[Koniving]

I have noticed a lot of things 'wrong' with the mechanics themselves, but nothing really working beyond the scope of the abuse the mechanics allow. Some near-instant deaths but as shown in that demonstration there's always an explanation which does, indeed, explain it.

It's no secret that I am not a fan of how PGI has 'interpreted' Battletech, even less of how PGI would blame Battletech for issues it faces of PGI's own creation. But despite that, things do work the way the mechanics allow them and there isn't really a way to break them short of network hiccups; but you will know when that happens because you will see "Deja Vu", teleportation, and other weirdness.



Short of network hiccups from wireless connection (never play games over wifi; use a direct connection).

[Vlad Striker]

Somehow ERPPCs doing <100% at close quarters <20m. Pulse lasers any faction tends to do additional crit damage too. Sometimes at FP armor looks like haveonly half value - lasers damage unusual heavy.