72 replies to this topic

[Old-dirty B]

Also... while many potatoes will remain potato for live some can be saved. With some guidance and coaching some potatoes might be transformed into a mech trashing machine, it will involve some investment though!

But that aside, potatoes ruin fw - agreed, tryhards just as much though. These guys contribute to the very same problem in balance, just on the other side of the spectrum.

[Willard Phule]

B3R3ND, on 04 January 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

Also... while many potatoes will remain potato for live some can be saved. With some guidance and coaching some potatoes might be transformed into a mech trashing machine, it will involve some investment though!

But that aside, potatoes ruin fw - agreed, tryhards just as much though. These guys contribute to the very same problem in balance, just on the other side of the spectrum.

That statement makes a HUGE assumption that is actually proven to be incorrect with experience.

Potatoes don't learn. I'm not even sure if they're physically capable of learning. Which is why they're called "potatoes." 3+ years into this and all this game produces is wave after wave of potatoes that stay long enough to waste a little real money on the game before they go elsewhere.

[LordNothing]

one time i screwed up and took the wrong highlander into fp. it had a single lrm20 on it (mostly to give me something to do when things got campy lermy), with an ac10, 2ml and 3srm4s as backup weapons. i felt bad for bringing that to invasion.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 January 2017 - 04:03 AM.

[Mechi Messer]

The tryhard vs potatoe discussion won't bring us far. I consider myself at least quarterpotatoe due to solodropping only but let's face it: potatoes are the playerbase. Most players don't want or can't put much time into a game. Well, it's only a game after all and with playercount relatively low as it is this situiation won't change much. Only a very small number of players will ever become very good.
In games with larger population this is handeld by matchmaker. This didn't go so well in MWO.
You need to spend a lot of time to grind a decent deck for FW (all mechs mastered) and adapt to metachanges. Not to mention to develop good skill.
It is not easy to handle 5lpl-battlemaster for example. It runs relativle hot and without good knowledge of the maps you will get rekt pretty fast in a barndoormech like this. Be it as it may. Without potatoes FW will become a ghosttown again. Sadly I can't think of a real solution to the problem of skill disparity which is a far more grave one than slight techimbalance in my opinion.

[Old-dirty B]

Perhaps i should have worded it differently, i guess being a potato indicates the inability to cope and adapt, to invest learn and improve... indeed these guys cannot be saved.. What i did try to point out is that many of these so called potatoes seem to be a potato but actually aren't - they are just inexperienced or have trouble climbing the learning curve and need a push in the right direction to get going.

But indeed the potato vs try hard won't get us far, but in the end it shows were the true problem lies within. The average mainstream guy should be the playerbase, with a few potatoes and a few tryhards on the other hand. At the moment those that breakthrough and get comfortable with the game and become average / mainstream realise sooner or later that they have to put up with a lot of potatoes and tryhards and just a few other average players - eventually they drop out and only a handfull gets really good. On top of that, technical imbalance and all the tryhards flocking together at the most advantageous side further worsens the matter.

In all this, the tryhard subset of the playerbase is only truely in the position to really do something about this, leave your clans - join one of the houses - drop in smaller units - use non meta builds - help newbs - etc. Don't expect the potatoes to take care of this, you know they can't - because... potato!

Edited by B3R3ND, 04 January 2017 - 04:08 AM.

[LordNothing]

the whole us vs them mentality has got to go. bad winners and sore losers only hurt the game. its a game, i accept that i will loose from time to time. if you cant handle that then maybe games are too much for you.

[Kmieciu]

Mechi Messer, on 04 January 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

It is not easy to handle 5lpl-battlemaster for example.

Quite the opposite.
Boating IS LPL is easier than managing multiple weapon types. It's easier than leading shots with PPCs, ballistics and SRMs.
I would argue it's even easier than using LRMs and Streaks, since you only have to tract your target for 0.67 second.

@400 meters IS LPL is the most heat efficient energy weapon in the entire game.

[VaudeVillain]

The problems is, and I've seen this with most other games I've played, is the majority tend to think there is only one way to play and deride people who play differently. The other issue I see is people tend to jump to the side that is winning instead of offering up a challenge. While wins are easy, it becomes boring for the winning side because it presents no challenge and the other side just quits playing because they get slaughtered.

So, I play level 1 tech because it is challenging and quite frankly, losing against a Clan mech isn't much of a big deal because it's like the muscular guy beating up the handicapped kid, while if I beat a clan mech, it David Vs Goliath.

[Lily from animove]

Mechi Messer, on 04 January 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

It is not easy to handle 5lpl-battlemaster for example. It runs relativle hot and without good knowledge of the maps you will get rekt pretty fast in a barndoormech like this. Be it as it may. Without potatoes FW will become a ghosttown again. Sadly I can't think of a real solution to the problem of skill disparity which is a far more grave one than slight techimbalance in my opinion.

if it's not easy to handle, the wouldn'T this eman all clan alservomit's aren't easy to handle? because they ALL run hot too. But maybe thats one factor why many newbies stick with the IS mechs too, they can't handle the hot clanmechs. because te hardest tasks in MWO are heatmanagement and twisting. Map knowledge comes with time and exists in any game. teamplay is an own thing but it will require skill to start working. But heat maanegement and twisting are some vey MWO specific things and they define combat suvivability above anything else.

Kmieciu, on 04 January 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

Quite the opposite.
Boating IS LPL is easier than managing multiple weapon types. It's easier than leading shots with PPCs, ballistics and SRMs.
I would argue it's even easier than using LRMs and Streaks, since you only have to tract your target for 0.67 second.

@400 meters IS LPL is the most heat efficient energy weapon in the entire game.

not for newbies who can't handle the heat system yet.

Vxheous Kerensky, on 02 January 2017 - 11:50 PM, said:

You say this, but then a build like this shows up on a Timberwolf:

true, but then with the is mechs being more cheap, you do see a lot more pilotsin bad IS mechs.

nehebkau, on 03 January 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Same crap in scouting Warkhan. I don't understand why people are dropping in such bad scouting builds. The worst are the CN9-A(NCIX) mechs that I see. Just because you have a ballistics slot in the arm DOESN'T mean you need to use it if it means you have to cripple yourself with an IS XL engine! Do you really think 3 LRM-5s are going to be helpful in your 80kph mech? Oh you have a gauss rifle in your CN9 neat -- oh you only go 60kph? Why bring a Raven 3L - ERLL mech (insert any other sub 35 ton IS mech here) to a protect mission?

There is just so much bad-builds on the IS side that it acts like a magnifying glass to the tech imbalances. Compound that with the proclivity of new players to play IS and you just end up with a world of poo.

and this is why we need a global chat system that consisntently exists especially in the emchlab. A system where you can regular post (link) good builds and tell the crowd out there what mechs are bad. This informations doesn't spreads ingame and thats why so many pilots fail by not even being able to realise their mistakes

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[MacClearly]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 02 January 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

This further highlights the paywall of getting into Clan mechs...newer or casual free-to-play players generally can only afford IS mechs, and freebies like the above, and their inexperience shows in their builds. If the distribution of newer/casual players was more even between Clan and IS, it would probably help the IS.

Not only do I not buy into the idea of a paywall separating IS from Clan, it is out and out nonsense. It's been gone over too many times for me to list why IS mechs run the same after configured.

So if a newer or casual player wants to be IS, then reading the forums and getting themselves a 20 dollar Warhammer pack is not an unreasonable expectation if they want to get up and running for FW. Truthfully new players shouldn't even being doing FW until they have mastered a bunch of mechs, learned the basics, got themselves to tier three or close, and know how to put together a drop deck and get on teamspeak....

There is so much help and videos and people willing to share their time, there is really no excuse to do that to a Centurion.

[MacClearly]

VaudeVillain, on 04 January 2017 - 04:33 AM, said:

The problems is, and I've seen this with most other games I've played, is the majority tend to think there is only one way to play and deride people who play differently. The other issue I see is people tend to jump to the side that is winning instead of offering up a challenge. While wins are easy, it becomes boring for the winning side because it presents no challenge and the other side just quits playing because they get slaughtered.

So, I play level 1 tech because it is challenging and quite frankly, losing against a Clan mech isn't much of a big deal because it's like the muscular guy beating up the handicapped kid, while if I beat a clan mech, it David Vs Goliath.

Ok so to try and explain it to you.

Let's say I join your baseball team. You are just a member of the team and not in charge of who you play with, so here I am. Upon joining I tell you that cleats are just so boring and meta so I wear flip flops instead, you know, for the challenge. As well everyone is holding the bat by the thinner end *yawn. I actually hold the fat part because then when you hit a pitchers fast ball you really feel as if you have accomplished something. Oh and silly baseball gloves...not this guy!!! Instead I catch barehanded like back in the ol' caveman days. So I won't run the bases very well, hitting the ball will much rarer, and you can only hope I manage to catch one out of every sixty or so line drives that come my way. As a result you will be on a baseball team that is handicapped and loses more often than, you know, if I wasn't being completely ret@rded...

[Mechi Messer]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 04:46 AM, said:

if it's not easy to handle, the wouldn'T this eman all clan alservomit's aren't easy to handle? because they ALL run hot too. But maybe thats one factor why many newbies stick with the IS mechs too, they can't handle the hot clanmechs. because te hardest tasks in MWO are heatmanagement and twisting. Map knowledge comes with time and exists in any game. teamplay is an own thing but it will require skill to start working. But heat maanegement and twisting are some vey MWO specific things and they define combat suvivability above anything else.

I agree. For example I don't think rookies can handle the laservomit-jag any good. I don't even want to discuss techimbalances although I think they do exist. They are maybe one but not the main problem of this game. In my opinion more casual gamers and rookies tend to field IS-mechs because they are cheaper at the first glance. I have no numbers but they seem more appealing and there are non elited or upgraded (endo, dubs) mechs hobbling towards clanfiringlines. Concerning FW, it all comes down to matchmaking and playerbase. You can't close the only part of the game where at least some goals are installed (as ****** they might be) apart from grinding cbills and leveling mechs. QP is a bit stale after a while.
If pgi sets groups only, or skillevel caps they create an inviroment where a few are happy for a short while but they lose a lot of players I think. If they leave it as it is maybe some new players adapt but the few good players get tired of sealclubbing and many seals leave..
Either way it's bad for the game. As I said: I would be happy if the playerbase was strong enough to allow a matchmaking system in FW but I don't see it. In my opinion it would be the only way to make everyone happier given there were enough players.

Edited by Mechi Messer, 04 January 2017 - 08:42 AM.

[Nosiwosi]

They should just reconfigure the store to where what you see displayed is only the empty chassis, and if it already comes with fixed Endo/Ferro/DHS/Engine, its quirks and hardpoints.Then have a 2nd page after you choose the mech to retrofit it yourself to where you choose what weapons it has, SHS or DHS, Endo, Ferro, Artemis, what engine you would like to put etc... Then before you click the final button that purchases all that, you can see how much in total the mech would cost. That way new and old players alike could have an estimate to how much they need to pay to have a working mech that they like. My problem with the current store is that it deceives players, especially newbs that they only need to pay this much, when in fact to deck out that mech to a decent loadout you need this much more. And giving us weapons/engines that we will most likely not use and throw away is just a waste of C-Bills tbh. I know we have Smurfy's and such to give us the estimate, but alot of players rarely use outside sources for stuff like that.

I know you could "view in mechlab" from the store, but I think this would be easier for everybody. Well that's my 2 cents anyway.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

MacClearly, on 04 January 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

Not only do I not buy into the idea of a paywall separating IS from Clan, it is out and out nonsense. It's been gone over too many times for me to list why IS mechs run the same after configured.

So if a newer or casual player wants to be IS, then reading the forums and getting themselves a 20 dollar Warhammer pack is not an unreasonable expectation if they want to get up and running for FW. Truthfully new players shouldn't even being doing FW until they have mastered a bunch of mechs, learned the basics, got themselves to tier three or close, and know how to put together a drop deck and get on teamspeak....

There is so much help and videos and people willing to share their time, there is really no excuse to do that to a Centurion.

Valid points, but it is not immediately obvious to a new player that an IS mech really needs the upgrades to function on par with a Clan mech, such that by the time the upgrades are done, you've spent close to the same as a Clan mech. Some IS mechs just don't work well with XL engines, though, so those will still cost significantly less than a Clan mech. Sure, spending real dollars can get them into some nice mechs, but you have to realize with F2P titles, there are those that don't want to put real money or research into it, they are just looking to download a free game to try out for a bit and then move on to the next new thing. At the very beginning of MWO, the playerbase was primarily those that loved the IP, were familiar with the lore and the mechanics, and were willing to invest in it over the long term...now that MWO is on Steam, it's catering to those that haven't heard of the IP before and just want to sample free games without making a long term commitment. So, now we're seeing the effects of that shift, for better or worse.

[VaudeVillain]

MacClearly, on 04 January 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Ok so to try and explain it to you.

Let's say I join your baseball team. You are just a member of the team and not in charge of who you play with, so here I am. Upon joining I tell you that cleats are just so boring and meta so I wear flip flops instead, you know, for the challenge. As well everyone is holding the bat by the thinner end *yawn. I actually hold the fat part because then when you hit a pitchers fast ball you really feel as if you have accomplished something. Oh and silly baseball gloves...not this guy!!! Instead I catch barehanded like back in the ol' caveman days. So I won't run the bases very well, hitting the ball will much rarer, and you can only hope I manage to catch one out of every sixty or so line drives that come my way. As a result you will be on a baseball team that is handicapped and loses more often than, you know, if I wasn't being completely ret@rded...

Actually, it's more like I'm wearing the standard uniform and have the standard gear and you have the specialized, custom fitted, high tech gear. The thing is you are bashing the way I play without ever having played that way yourself, so you THINK you know it would do badly, but the reality is not necessarily the case.

Sure, the best game I had was in a STK-4N, with 4 Large Lasers and I did 1400 damage and got 10 kills. So, I was slower in speed, had slower heat dissipation due to SHS, packed less weaponry, had less range and still managed 1400 damage. You can't say I was sitting back and sniping because LLs don't have the range for sniping, so I had to be in the middle of the battle. Plus this was on Tourmaline Desert, which is a warm map, so even unfriendlier to SHS.

As I said before, people get a mindset that there's only one way to play and can't comprehend anything else and just call it a fluke when they get shown up.

I argue the point to show that you don't have to play meta to do well.

Edited by VaudeVillain, 04 January 2017 - 05:10 PM.

[Domoneky]

what if....I feel like bringing whatever the F*** I feel like bringing? What if I dont give a S*** about your "competitiveness' and simply play my way for say...oh i dunno....something thats been lost for years in this title.....called fun.

[MischiefSC]

VaudeVillain, on 04 January 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Actually, it's more like I'm wearing the standard uniform and have the standard gear and you have the specialized, custom fitted, high tech gear. The thing is you are bashing the way I play without ever having played that way yourself, so you THINK you know it would do badly, but the reality is not necessarily the case.

Sure, the best game I had was in a STK-4N, with 4 Large Lasers and I did 1400 damage and got 10 kills. So, I was slower in speed, had slower heat dissipation due to SHS, packed less weaponry, had less range and still managed 1400 damage. You can't say I was sitting back and sniping because LLs don't have the range for sniping, so I had to be in the middle of the battle. Plus this was on Tourmaline Desert, which is a warm map, so even unfriendlier to SHS.

As I said before, people get a mindset that there's only one way to play and can't comprehend anything else and just call it a fluke when they get shown up.

I argue the point to show that you don't have to play meta to do well.

No. You're mistaking anecdotal examples for actual telemetry. What works gets played out and tested over thousands and thousands of matches by hundreds of players who have consistently proven their ability to win. Having had a good game in a 4LL 4N Stalker (which is relatively meta) but SHS in QP is irrelevant. Are you saying you wouldn't have had a better match with DHS and 5LLs?

I could build a deck using a rock instead of a hammer. It would not make me a better carpenter, it would just be me using a bad tool to do the job. It doesn't mean that 'real carpenters don't appreciate how to use a rock instead of a hammer', it just means that I made a poor choice in tools.

You're using inherently inferior tools for the job and pretending there's some value in that. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to tell yourself to stay entertained but pretending that nobody else can 'comprehend' how to use bad tools or that there's some virtue in making bad choices is just you playing pretend.

Domoneky, on 04 January 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

what if....I feel like bringing whatever the F*** I feel like bringing? What if I dont give a S*** about your "competitiveness' and simply play my way for say...oh i dunno....something thats been lost for years in this title.....called fun.

If you find failing to be fun then do your thing. However it's a team game. Unless you're in the training ground or in a private match every single time you drop your bad decisions affect everyone else on their team and if they don't find losing because you have fun making bad choices to be fun for them they are absolutely in the right to point out that you're being a selfish *****.

If you're playing in QP, GQ or FW then you're playing on a team and your performance impacts the team. If you don't care about anyone else then, well, go nuts. However that does make you by pretty much any standard of human behavior a selfish ***** and people are going to point that out. Care, don't care, that's all on you. However people are certainly in the right to call someone shafting the team for their own giggles out for doing so.

[Domoneky]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

No. You're mistaking anecdotal examples for actual telemetry. What works gets played out and tested over thousands and thousands of matches by hundreds of players who have consistently proven their ability to win. Having had a good game in a 4LL 4N Stalker (which is relatively meta) but SHS in QP is irrelevant. Are you saying you wouldn't have had a better match with DHS and 5LLs?

I could build a deck using a rock instead of a hammer. It would not make me a better carpenter, it would just be me using a bad tool to do the job. It doesn't mean that 'real carpenters don't appreciate how to use a rock instead of a hammer', it just means that I made a poor choice in tools.

You're using inherently inferior tools for the job and pretending there's some value in that. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to tell yourself to stay entertained but pretending that nobody else can 'comprehend' how to use bad tools or that there's some virtue in making bad choices is just you playing pretend.



If you find failing to be fun then do your thing. However it's a team game. Unless you're in the training ground or in a private match every single time you drop your bad decisions affect everyone else on their team and if they don't find losing because you have fun making bad choices to be fun for them they are absolutely in the right to point out that you're being a selfish *****.

If you're playing in QP, GQ or FW then you're playing on a team and your performance impacts the team. If you don't care about anyone else then, well, go nuts. However that does make you by pretty much any standard of human behavior a selfish ***** and people are going to point that out. Care, don't care, that's all on you. However people are certainly in the right to call someone shafting the team for their own giggles out for doing so.

I shall. And if we are on a team I'll make it especially hard.

[S C A R]

Domoneky, on 04 January 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

what if....I feel like bringing whatever the F*** I feel like bringing? What if I dont give a S*** about your "competitiveness' and simply play my way for say...oh i dunno....something thats been lost for years in this title.....called fun.

You accidentally get shot in the back, you know cause it is fun. Have fun)

[Vxheous]

Domoneky, on 04 January 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

what if....I feel like bringing whatever the F*** I feel like bringing? What if I dont give a S*** about your "competitiveness' and simply play my way for say...oh i dunno....something thats been lost for years in this title.....called fun.

You must find it fun to lose while getting completely demolished. I mean, I have fun when I do well and win, or at least do well even when losing.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 05 January 2017 - 02:01 AM.