145 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

se thats where you are just wrong, you need to balance the IS ERML to the CERML, but your current claim wants a CERML to be balanced to the ISML. Thats the reason why new tech would NOT be a sidegrade, thats why the new tech would make you need to comepltely overhaul anything, because now you need to balance the ISML and CERML to the new coming ISERML. and then also readjust all the chassis that you quriked to make work with the ISML and CERML balance base that the new laser just broke.



when this happens you then invalidated your very own statement:



fact is, the TBR is currently a strong chassis, fact is also, any battlemech on humaoid shape with equal tech would make the TBR inferior. And this is where your above statement is jsut false because then the TBR is not "ALWAYS the best bang for the buck"

your statement was by facts already not true.

Ok granted about the ER M vs ER M

But talking about the TBR as best heavy - I was talking about the inherent Build Rules
35.,55,75,85-90 tons is always the optimum add good hitbox geometry (nothing I had in mind first) and you have a Mech that knows no equal

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 04 January 2017 - 07:15 AM, said:

Ok granted about the ER M vs ER M

But talking about the TBR as best heavy - I was talking about the inherent Build Rules
35.,55,75,85-90 tons is always the optimum add good hitbox geometry (nothing I had in mind first) and you have a Mech that knows no equal

well theres still within a specific tonnage multiple chassis, also, a 65t mehc doesn't necessarily have to be worse than a 75t mech. thats a truly basic deisgn issue PGi did with bigger engines = more torso twist. without that for example we could give smaller mechs better twist and movement, but this is currently only clustered in 4 archetypes + engine engine ratings effect. But that is similar to the heatscale issue not a tehc issue its a basic games deisign issue independend from the tech.

[Novakaine]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 11:20 PM, said:

Okey. We already figured that from Pure Math - IS tech is superior.

Now lets get to 1v1 mech battle (theoretical battle)



Meet JESTER.
A 65tonn IS mech. With two IS ERLL (one in each arm) which has same range as Clan ERLL thanks to 10% quirk, and short burn time which is even shorter with another 10% quirk - he will be able to put long range pinpoint damage without any spread. Also he has 4 medium lasers in body for short-medium(same 10% quirk) range. JESTER is very small and has very good hitboxes for damage spread. Yes he runs XL, but if he will not forget to wiggle his nose a little from side to side - he will spread all that puny clan lightsabers just fine. He is pretty heat-efficient, so he will be able to put high sustained DPS without overheating. He has max armor everywhere. His speed is 88.5 kph

And his opponent is



HBR-PRIME
A 65tonn Clan mech. With two C-ERLL (in torso) which has same range as IS ERLL, but way longer burn time, which even worse in comparison cause he has not any quirks - he will spread damage all over the place. Also he has 4 c-er med lasers, three in arms and one in head, for short-medium range. HBR-PRIME has huge floppy body - you can see and hit him from miles away, even ECM he has will not help him to hide. He will not be able to spread damage either, cause he has so wide body which he should expose for so long to wait his lasers to finally finish their burn and to top this - his opponent has lasers with very short burn time. He is not heat-efficient, he will not be able to put high sustained DPS without overheating. He have had to sucrifice armor in arms legs and head to squize a little more heatsinks which he desperedly needs.
His speed is 81 kph





So, batlle arena will be - big open map.

JESTER thanks to his speed advantge will be able to kite HBR-PRIME and use his superrior IS ERLL with very short burn time and good heat efficciency, he actually will build up almost no heat. JESTER will do pinpoint damage to center torso of his enemy almost without spread, quickly making his CT armor almost solid red.
HBR-PRIME will try to shoot his inferrior C-ERLL with long long burn time, but all he will achieve is spray some yellowness all over enemy mech. Also he will build up some noticeable heat.

But finally they come up to close fight. HBR-PRIME will desperedly try to use his only theoretical advantege - its 100m range difference between IS Medium Laser, and C-ER Med Lasers. But JESTER thanks to his speed advantege will quickly negate that.
Then JESTER thanks to almost no heat built before, and high overall heat efficiency(which gives him high sustained DPS) will simply destroy his opponent which already had pretty heavily damaged CT.
HBR-PRIME thanks to some heat built before, and overall low heat efficiency(which gives him low sustained DPS) will not be able to do any serious damage to his opponent

I see now.
You're not stupid at all.
You're just one of the Devs.
It figures.
You should be ashamed trolling your own game.
Have you no human dignity?

Edited by Novakaine, 04 January 2017 - 07:52 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

DovisKhan, on 04 January 2017 - 04:02 AM, said:

I'm assuming you're trolling with this, but I'll indulge


Lets do this:

You bring that ERLL Jester


Me or someone brings this:


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...13989ede5d2888e


It moves faster, peeks from hills tops or sides better because of it.


CERPPCs always outrade ERLL, it also has cooldown, and less heat generation quirks AND a velocity quirk


Better than Jester in every single way


Or this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=403&l=stock


Didn't even change it, it's the steam sale one, will outrade at both long and close range



ALSO here's some weapon comparisons, better Clan equivalent for every IS weapon



1) IS small and IS Small pulse - completely worthless, can be replaced by Clan Machinegun


2) IS medium - replaceable by Clan Small, example:

6 IS mediums do 30 damage for 24 heat at 270 range - 6 tons
6 Clan smalls do 30 damage for 18 heat at 200 range - 3 tons


You can't use 6 IS Mediums as a back up weapon - too hot, too much weight, not enough hardpoints left

You can use 6 Clan Smalls - little weight, more hardpoints and better heat dissipation allows you to



Example - you can have a Clan mech with 2 CERPPCs and 6 Small lasers for close quarters, there is no way you can have an IS mech with 2 ERPPCs and 6 medium lasers without sacrificing something important


3) IS LL - replaced by Clan Medium, 9 damage for 7 heat and 5 tons vs 7 damage for 6 heat and 1 ton


No contest, Clan medium is downright better


Without ghost heat you can use 3 LL for 27 damage at 450 range and 21 heat for 15 tons vs 42 damage at 445 range for 13 tons (TC7 + 6 CERMED) - yes it would be hotter, but that does not matter, because you peek, go back and cool down

3) IS ERLL - replaced by Clan Large Pulse, it's better in near every way for just 1 ton more, slightly less range but that's irrelevant since you're not a turret and you CAN move believe it or not, so closing that irrelevantly small distance is no problem


4) Clan PPCs are just better, period, more damage, less weight, less space used for ~same heat.


If you involve quirks - do yourself a favor and use Clan mechs that have quirks as well, the suddenly Warhawk and Linebacker appears, both with significant ppc quirks that help them be superior ppc mechs than any IS equivalent.


5) LRMs - absolutely no contest, clans have them for half the weight, doesn't matter that salvos are different, they're still much, much, much better


6) Clan ballistics, no contest, they're just better, there is a niche exceptions, sure, but at the extremes, they're just better.


There is absolutely nothing that can match a Direwhale with 8 cuac2s, it will absolutely anihilate any IS assault boating ballistics

KDK3 will be better in all other cases


7) SRMs - hah, don't even compare, aside from a few mechs, it's absolutely not a contest, Clans win bigtime



ALL in ALL - CLAN tech is better, that's why I wouldn't even mibd a 230 vs 260 tons, I could still manage to bring equivalent force with that much less tonnage

So much nope.
and that linebacker ppc build is not that good, I use almost that setup but with a tc. problem comes from the hardpoints aren't very good to use at the same time unless you are crossing an open field or crossing to cover. It's just not that effective.

Your ebj build, what did you do, copy the frickin trial build for your argument purpose? Hands down the Ebon Jaguar is by and far my favorite mech, have one chassis with 1 million exp, and another up to 350k. I have run so many variations of on it that it is basically my second skin.
That said, a competent Jester pilot (or catapult for that matter) will be able to tank far better and get with in optimal range and neuter the ebj in short order if he knows what he is doing.

You brought C-lrms into this???!! are you kidding me. please tell that is a joke. Might as well just stream confetti in your face, at least then it's a party. And I actually do ok with lrms.

Oh god, the Direwhale is a threat now? I thought it was a giant gamecube turret tbh.

PLEASE STOP WITH THIS FORUM MADNESS, I BEG YOU ALL.

[Dathcha the Jawa Adventurer]

All of the clan apologist threads amount to:

If the IS player is better skilled, he can sometimes win.

GG

[Moebius Pi]

I wouldn't bother with he who shalt not be named; they'll just start talking about Lore based balancing when their "argument" is pile-drived into the ground by folks with a better grasp of math, and we all know where that goes in our current quasi timeline.

I'm not even joking.







Seriously.

Because balanced = being like the Clans on release, cuz Lore (they're that stubborn to adopt an opposing conclusion even with mere facts). Happened in another post while he just goes on and on about having proved something (while being shown to flat out incorrect on multiple "maths"). Just. Don't. Bother. I hate to say it, but I'm seriously wondering if they have a legitimate condition.

I'm nowhere near as polarized as some IS diehards regarding what the current state of balance is, but even I won't pretend it's in a good spot. Better than in a long while (until the DHS tweaks lately)? Sure, but better than steaming **** isn't hard to achieve.

[GrimRiver]

"IS op" lol

Ok, find me a IS Assault mech right now that can fit 4xAC10's in high mounted hardpoint in the torso like the KDK-3's 4xUAC10.
MAL doesn't count since it's hardpoints aren't high mounted and it can't match the KDK in KPH.

or

IS heavy mech that fit 2xAC10 - AC5 - 3xSL - ML like the NTG 2xUAC10 - UAC5 - 3xERSL - ERML.

Reason why clans can fit builds like this is due to their weight saving and smaller sized tech, so they can afford an extra C-DHS or 2.

Take a trip down FW lane and tell me how much better the clans are doing against the so called "op IS", from the last time I checked the stats the clans were/are mopping the floor with IS. The stats are there for eveyone to see.

And ERLL are subpar weapons, the only reason why anyone would take them over (ER)PPC is because they might not have the room/weight for (ER)PPC and the DHS's for it.

(ER)PPC's are a straight upgrade from ERLL due to ERLL's long burn time.

IS structure buffs mean nothing when clans can fit longer ranged, more damaging weapons on their mechs or have you forgotten why IS quirks exist in the first place, that is if you were around since before the release of clans.

Edited by GrimRiver, 04 January 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[Bombast]

GrimRiver, on 04 January 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

IS heavy mech that fit 2xAC10 - AC5 - 3xSL - ML like the NTG 2xUAC10 - UAC5 - 3xERSL - ERML.

I was curious, so I gave it a quick, 2 minute shot. The Jagermech JM6-S can kind of do it - Dual LB 10-X, AC/5, Triple Small Laser and Medium Laser.

But it, uh... lets be generous and say that it 'Requires some trade offs.' If you get my meaning.

[RestosIII]

Bombast, on 04 January 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

But it, uh... lets be generous and say that it 'Requires some trade offs.' If you get my meaning.

So... no cup holder?

[GrimRiver]

Bombast, on 04 January 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

I was curious, so I gave it a quick, 2 minute shot. The Jagermech JM6-S can kind of do it - Dual LB 10-X, AC/5, Triple Small Laser and Medium Laser.

But it, uh... lets be generous and say that it 'Requires some trade offs.' If you get my meaning.

Which is the point I trying to make.

A very very small amount of IS heavy mechs can pull off my NTG build, but at the cost of ALOT of armor, much less ammo and a smaller engine.

IS can never hope to pull off clan power house builds unless they give up alot of something and usually the trade offs just aren't worth it.

My NTG NTG-D

Edited by GrimRiver, 04 January 2017 - 11:23 AM.

[Dathcha the Jawa Adventurer]

GrimRiver, on 04 January 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Which is the point I trying to make.

A very very small amount of IS heavy mechs can pull off my NTG build, but at the cost of ALOT of armor, much less ammo and a smaller engine.

IS can never hope to pull off clan power house builds unless they give up alot of something and usually the trade offs just aren't worth it.

My NTG NTG-D

Don't forget less range, inability to double-tap, and worse manueverability (twisting and turning and such).
But yeah, IS is totally on par with Clan tech. No doubt...

[Bombast]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

So... no cup holder?

****, cup holders!

back to the drawing board. I don't have enough critical space for those. Maybe if I throw out endo-steel and reduce my armor to 2 tons...

[GrimRiver]

Bombast, on 04 January 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

****, cup holders!

back to the drawing board. I don't have enough critical space for those. Maybe if I throw out endo-steel and reduce my armor to 2 tons...

Get rid of the pilot, they takes up space with his/her o2, food and bathroom needs.

My IS mech doesn't move or shoot now, but hey at least now it can run full armor and a heavy payload of weapons that other mechs of equal weight couldn't.

Edited by GrimRiver, 04 January 2017 - 11:46 AM.

[Carl Vickers]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

Challenge accepted

Stuff and things.

[RestosIII]

GrimRiver, on 04 January 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Get rid of the pilot, they takes up space with his/her o2, food and bathroom needs.

My IS mech doesn't move or shoot now, but hey at least now it can run full armor and a heavy payload of weapons that other mechs of equal weight couldn't.

I can't remember, does the Drone Control system work for mechs? If so, it'd give me some major Evangelion vibes.

[GrimRiver]

RestosIII, on 04 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

I can't remember, does the Drone Control system work for mechs? If so, it'd give me some major Evangelion vibes.

Yes, the CTF-3Dd is one of the drones controlled by "The Broken" which is almost AI like but not quite there.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

Quirks will never go away because perfect balance will never be achieved. However, balanced tech for both sides will mean IS mechs in general will require far less quirks to compete with Clan mechs. That's indisputable truth. You cannot twist that logic in anyway.

Therefore, one must balance the tech first (such as IS XL/Endo/Ferro vs Clan XL/Endo/Ferro) and then add quirks when necessary.

Pretty sure PGI remains committed to the opposite approach....make IS tech (at least somewhat) inferior to Clan tech, then quirk up chassis to make running a particular IS tech on that Chassis decent (or good). The XL is the obvious example. Many IS Mechs come with significant ST structure quirks to try to off-set the natural disadvantage of the IS XL. If they made them the same basic tech, those ST quirks would likely need to go away (for the most part) or you create an imbalance the other way.

Make no mistake, I am not saying PGI's method of trying to balance the game is the best way. I am torn...and it honestly isn't a big deal to me which way PGI chooses to balance things, as long as they keep trying to balance... It's just impossible to achieve perfect balance while adding new content (Mechs).
Of course, they could (as many on forums have advocated) make Clan and IS tech the same (we would lose some of the flavor however, of playing different sides...many players don't want the sides to play the exact same way) and get rid of most quirks or they can go the other way (which is what they have done) and have tech be naturally imbalanced towards Clan tech and buff the IS tech on a chassis by chassis basis through quirks to try to make the game play in a balanced way. Which is what they have seemed committed to up until now.

With the skill tree coming in I would expect a major balance reset...for better or worse. Which they will then have to likely try to fix again.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 04 January 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Pssh, guys, I already explained that Clans were OP in the OP, there's really no debate.

[Deathlike]

This thread... I don't even...

From what amounts to an opening troll post, apparently catch one guy and double down on most flawed erroneous logic used.

Welcome to General Discussion of the MWO Forums.

May the nerfbat be kind to your soul.

[Navid A1]

MWO is under potato invasion!

They are in game. In the forums... everywhere.
They think they are logical. They have high levels of confidence... mixed with arrogance!


God help us all.