145 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

The cERPPC and IS ERPPC are the closest to parity of any of the weapon systems, but the splash damage is still worth it. It inflates your personal damage score and when multiple clan mechs are focus firing with cERPPCs more copmonents open up and melt. The IS doing the same will need to be far more accurate to achieve the same effect.

Because of the splash damage mostly going to either CT or a side torso an IS mech will always lose long term trading in a PPC battle.

To top it off, the cERPPC travels 100m/s faster than the IS ERPPC, and is further boosted in speed by targeting computers.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 03 January 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The isLPL vs. cLPL is also pretty well-balanced. They don't operate anything alike, but what each of them does, they do with aplomb.

[brroleg]

Snazzy Dragon, on 03 January 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

IS mech will always lose long term trading in a PPC battle.

Clan mech will always lose trading in a PPC battle cause he has 7 tons and 9 crit slots less additional weapons (for example IS mech can have additional ERLL for this tonnage)

And if you take out TC VII - Clan mech will always lose trading in a PPC battle cause he has 162m less range

Edited by brroleg, 03 January 2017 - 08:42 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Snazzy Dragon, on 03 January 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

To top it off, the cERPPC travels 100m/s faster than the IS ERPPC, and is further boosted in speed by targeting computers

um both travel at 1300kph, so where do you get the other 100kph?

[Navid A1]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

Spoiler

Challenge accepted

here is exact stats http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER PPC
HPS (heat per second):3.50

ER PPC
HPS (heat per second): 3.38

3.50 - 3.38 = 0.12

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation rate (both for IS and Clan): 0.15

0.12 / 0.15 = 0.8(1)

C-ER PPC needs 0.8(1) more heatsinks than IS ER PPC

C-ER PPC weight 6t
Double heatsink weight 1t

6+1 = 7 ton

7 ton (and 4 crit slots) is true weight of C-ER PPC while IS ER PPC weight is 7 ton (and 3 crit slot)

BUT TEH CLAN RANGE

Every IS mech with more than 2 energy hardpoints has +10% energy range quirk, which makes IS ER PPC range 1782 (while C-ER PPC range 1620)

BUT TEH CLAN TC

Sure. Lets count for two C-ER PPC build.

Each C-ER PPC needs additional 1 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

2 * C-ER PPC + 2 Double Heatsinks + TC VII = 21 ton and 15 crit slots for 1782 range

Now lets count for two IS ERLL build

2 * IS ER PPC = 14 ton and 6 crit slots for 1782 (cause +10% quirk on every mech) range

So clan pays additional 7 tons and 9 crit slots for same range.

BUT TEH CLAN ER PPC SPLASH DAMAGE
2.5 dmg for 2 adjusted components worth the aditional 7 tons and 9 crit slots? I think not

woah... that is some PGI grade analysis right there.

To get you the practical analysis (which is the exact opposite of PGI method), consider this:

A REALISTIC case, where a mastered mech has 12 double heat sinks and a single ERPPC.

When you fire the IS ERPPC, you'll have to wait 5.1 seconds for the heat to completely dissipate.
When you fire a C-ERPPC with the same number of DHS, you'll have to wait 5.29 seconds for the heat to completely dissipate.

So... I will happily wait the extra 0.19 seconds difference per ERPPC and add a targeting computer that gives me velocity and crit chance.



If you want to argue the practicality, you should focus on mega-quirks.
Like how IS PPCs outclass everything on a 50% velocity quirked chassis.

Edited by Navid A1, 03 January 2017 - 08:58 PM.

[RestosIII]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 08:35 PM, said:

Clan mech will always lose trading in a PPC battle cause he has 7 tons and 9 crit slots less additional weapons (for example IS mech can have additional ERLL for this tonnage)

There's only one truly fitting image I can give for the feelings I have for you right now, but I'd probably get a temporary forum ban if I posted it here. But this really hurts to read.

[brroleg]

Wait a minute, i forgot TC does not add range for anything except lasers. So C-ERPPC cant improove its range, so TC is useless for it. Only that TC improve in C-ERPPC is Projectile speed, and without range its nothing. Besides several IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints also has ERPPC proj speed quirks. So. I need to fix my math about C-ERPPC. But this only means that C-ERPPC even worth compared to IS ERPPC than i first thought.

[Bombast]

You know, what I said earlier wasn't fair. You'll never get better if no one corrects you. So, here we go!

EDIT: I apologize for the absurd length here guys. Skip, unless you want to see some absurdly stupid arguments, which are the only ones that make sense when faced with such absurdly dumb claims.

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

Spoiler

C-ER PPC
HPS (heat per second):3.50

ER PPC
HPS (heat per second): 3.38

3.50 - 3.38 = 0.12

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation rate (both for IS and Clan): 0.15

0.12 / 0.15 = 0.8(1)

C-ER PPC needs 0.8(1) more heatsinks than IS ER PPC



C-ER PPC weight 6t
Double heatsink weight 1t

6+1 = 7 ton

7 ton (and 4 crit slots) is true weight of C-ER PPC while IS ER PPC weight is 7 ton (and 3 crit slot)

Your obsession with heat neutral weapons is absurd, and it need not concern us much during a comparison. As per Smurfy's, a IS ER PPC requires 34 SHS to be neutral. The Clan ER PPC requires 35 SHS. That works out to 17 DHS on an IS mech, and 18 DHS on Clan mechs.

However.

Two IS ER PPCs require 34 DHS. Two Clan ER PPCs require.... 35 DHS. So which puts the Clan ER PPC ahead on tonnage.

And Clan ER PPCs do an extra 5 damage a piece, making them more damage efficient per heat, and per ton, even including that one extra heat sink.

Also, the theoretical DHS Inner Sphere limit is 28. So it can't even run two ER PPCs in your insane scenario. CORRECTION: Theoretical DHS limit for IS is actually 30. The build is still impossible.

The Clan theoretical limit is 39 41.

Quote

BUT TEH CLAN RANGE

Every IS mech with more than 2 energy hardpoints has +10% energy range quirk, which makes IS ER PPC range 1782 (while C-ER PPC range 1620)

That's a lie. The first Inner Sphere mech to show up in the ingame mech store with two energy hard points doesn't have such a perk, and I didn't look any further then that.

Quote

Spoiler

Each C-ER PPC needs additional 1 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

A lie, as we've established. Each two ER PPCs require an additional heat sink.

Quote

Spoiler

2 * C-ER PPC + 2 Double Heatsinks + TC VII = 21 ton and 15 crit slots for 1782 range

Actually, it would be ...

2x ER PPC (12 tons, 4 crits) + 35 DHS (25 tons, 50 crits) + TC7 (7 tons, 7 crits) = 45 tons, 61 crits

Quote

Spoiler

Now lets count for two IS ERLL build

2 * IS ER PPC = 14 ton and 6 crit slots for 1782 (cause +10% quirk on every mech) range

2 ER PPC (14 tons, 6 crits) + 34 DHS (24 tons, 72 crits) = 38 tons, 78 Crits

Quote

So clan pays additional 7 tons and 9 crit slots for same range.[/spoiler]

Actually, they pay, in your bizarre logic, 7 tons and -17 crits for 10% range and 35% beam speed, and various other secondary benefits.

For funsies, neither of those builds is actually possible.

The clan build falls short by 4 heat sinks (Lack of Internal Space)

The Inner Sphere build falls short by 8 heat sinks.

Quote

Spoiler

BUT TEH CLAN ER PPC SPLASH DAMAGE
2.5 dmg for 2 adjusted components worth the aditional 7 tons and 9 crit slots? I think not

Again, they pay 7 tons for increased range and beam speed and crit chance, while actually saving critical space.

I guess I did know where to start.

Edited by Bombast, 03 January 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[RestosIII]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

Wait a minute, i forgot TC does not add range for anything except lasers. So C-ERPPC cant improove its range, so TC is useless for it. Only that TC improve in C-ERPPC is Projectile speed, and without range its nothing. Besides several IS mechs with more than 2 energy hardpoints also has ERPPC proj speed quirks. So. I need to fix my math about C-ERPPC. But this only means that C-ERPPC even worth compared to IS ERPPC than i first thought.

Did... did you just seriously say TC's are worthless for PPC's? You're... oh god. I can't take this.

[brroleg]

Bombast, on 03 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Your obsession with heat neutral weapons

Its not about heat neutrality, its about equality in DPS.

On mech without heatsinks IS ERPPC will have bigger pinpoint DPS than CLan ERPPC (cause mech with CLan ERPPC will take longer to cool down). Unless you add 1 DHS to Clan ERPPC - then they will be equal in pinpoint DPS

Edited by brroleg, 03 January 2017 - 09:19 PM.

[Bombast]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 09:15 PM, said:

Its not about heat neutrality, its about equality in DPS.

On mech without heatsinks IS ERPPC will have bigger pinpoint DPS than CLan ERPPC. Unless you add 1 DHS to Clan ERPPS - then they will be equal in pinpoint DPS

None of that is true. Are you aware of what pinpoint means? Are you going to ignore that even your supposed one crit deficit is completely negated once you equip more then one ER PPC?

**** man. You have to actually fight back. Otherwise it'll look like I'm beating up a 10 year old when I start totting out things like 7 crit Endo-Steel negating the supposed negatives of your scenario by huge margins, and how Clan DHS's are inherently superior for boating because they can fit anywhere, which is required for your 'pinpoint' damage, whatever the hell it is you mean by it.

[Alex Morgaine]

This is the thread to be in!

*puts on foam hand and beer hat

[Y E O N N E]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

If you want to argue the practicality, you should focus on mega-quirks.
Like how IS PPCs outclass everything on a 50% velocity quirked chassis.

You know, the BJ-3 still loses to the HBK-IIC-A despite its gigantic PPC heat-gen and velocity quirks. It's a solid PPC popper, but dat extra armor, dat splash damage, and dat 9 extra kph make all the difference.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 03 January 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 January 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

You know, the BJ-3 still loses to the HBK-IIC-A despite its gigantic PPC heat-gen and velocity quirks. It's a solid PPC popper, but dat extra armor, dat splash damage, and dat 9 extra kph make all the difference.

Not to mention the disparity between IS XL and cXL

[RestosIII]

Snazzy Dragon, on 03 January 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Not to mention the disparity between IS XL and cXL

But there are IS heavy mechs that can theoretically hit 100 km/h!

[Bombast]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

If you want to argue the practicality, you should focus on mega-quirks.
Like how IS PPCs outclass everything on a 50% velocity quirked chassis.

That is a more interesting argument, though I suspect it's wasted in this particular argument line.

Though... how many mechs with Mega-Quirks actually rise about the level of 'chaff.' PPC Velocity 50%, in particular, seems reserved for absolute garbage mechs.

RestosIII, on 03 January 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

But there are IS heavy mechs that can theoretically hit 100 km/h!

[Black Phoebe]

Snazzy Dragon, on 03 January 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Not to mention the disparity between IS XL and cXL

This. And i guess there is a reason why he compares only 50% of the current Gauss/PPC meta.

Really, take a look at a typical "meta Night Gyr" with cXL, JJ, TC and Gauss/PPC loadout and come back and tell that the IS can field a Mech that is absolutely equal in any regard.

[Navid A1]

Bombast, on 03 January 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

That is a more interesting argument, though I suspect it's wasted in this particular argument line.

Though... how many mechs with Mega-Quirks actually rise about the level of 'chaff.' PPC Velocity 50%, in particular, seems reserved for absolute garbage mechs.

Warhammers are not garbage...
same as Marauders.
have you seen the ppc banshee-3m?

[Bombast]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

Warhammers are not garbage...
same as Marauders.

True, but I can't say I've ever seen either of those use PPCs. Why?

Quote

have you seen the ppc banshee-3m?

I haven't seen a Banshee in ages, actually. Again, one wonders why.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Bombast, on 03 January 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

True, but I can't say I've ever seen either of those use PPCs. Why?



I haven't seen a Banshee in ages, actually. Again, one wonders why.

Marauder 3R and Warhammer 6R/Black Widow are actually some of the best PPC carriers for the IS side-- and the Marauder doesn't need an XL to do so. The price to pay though is the lower mounts compared to the whammy.