145 replies to this topic

[Curccu]

Well this thread is pure gold.. well brroleg-meta is

I can feel the frustration of people trying to explain things to this.... this brroleg.
And I'm sorry to say but you cannot win because this fellow is living in his own dreamworld and doesn't want to take the red pill.




edit: typo

Edited by Curccu, 04 January 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

1. CLPL has longer range, damage, and costs 1 ton less. It is certainly not inferior than IS LPL.

2. IS ballistics are heavy and bulky, which means they can't be boated as easily as Clan ACs. Heck, you can't even equip dual IS UAC5s on single XL torso, while Clanners can equip dual CUAC10s on a single XL torso. Also, CUAC5 shoots only 2 pellets.

3. Clan large class lasers have GH limit of two, but thanks to the wonder that is CERML, and lighter Clan ballistics, and half-weight Clan missiles, they can be used along with far more weapons than IS large class lasers.

4. IS mechs in general have better quirks than Clan mechs, but that's only because IS tech sucks compared to Clan tech. And quirks are frequently prone to change, making them unreliable. And EVEN with good quirked IS mechs, top MWO players will still choose mostly quirkless Clan mechs for serious matches. Clan mechs are just that good.

1. With quirks LPL has almost the same range as CLPL. Of course, CLPL has a better optimal, but it still suck for sniping, and for braling LPL >>> CLPL, because duration and better heat management rock.

2. IS ballistic >>> Clan ballistic, save AC2, UAC2 and LBX20

3. Clan LRMs have more missiles with the same damage, so it makes them less effective. Of course, they don't have a minimum range, which compensates lesser effectiveness.

4. Some quirks along with better weapons (like LPL and ballistics) make IS mechs very powerful.

5. IS mechs usually have better survivability, because they can use STD engines.

[QuantumButler]

How can clanners hope to compete with the power of the dreaded Long Range Atlas?



Behold the power of something like 6 million single heatsinks

Edited by QuantumButler, 04 January 2017 - 06:14 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

QuantumButler, on 04 January 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

How can clanners hope to compete with the power of the dreaded Long Range Atlas?



Behold the power of something like 6 million single heatsinks

I...

This..

This is worse than the boar's head with 2 regular PPCs and an LRM20+A and like 6 tons of ammo..

[Lily from animove]

QuantumButler, on 04 January 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

How can clanners hope to compete with the power of the dreaded Long Range Atlas?



Behold the power of something like 6 million single heatsinks

important heat neutral build that even stays neutral on hot maps and ontop powers the comand console and bap utility and superior max STD speed and survivibility. Also it can still keep 50% of its firepower in zombiemode..
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d56931605880107

2017 meta spotted.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2017 - 06:25 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Btw thanks to a lot of turn, acceleration and deceleration quirks IS mechs feel like way more responsive, than Clan ones. Compare Night Gyr and Cataphract for example.

[El Bandito]

Kshahdoo, on 04 January 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

1. With quirks LPL has almost the same range as CLPL. Of course, CLPL has a better optimal, but it still suck for sniping, and for braling LPL >>> CLPL, because duration and better heat management rock.

2. IS ballistic >>> Clan ballistic, save AC2, UAC2 and LBX20

3. Clan LRMs have more missiles with the same damage, so it makes them less effective. Of course, they don't have a minimum range, which compensates lesser effectiveness.

4. Some quirks along with better weapons (like LPL and ballistics) make IS mechs very powerful.

5. IS mechs usually have better survivability, because they can use STD engines.

STOP. INCLUDING. QUIRKS. WHEN. COMPARING. WEAPONS.

Only the minority of IS mech variants have energy range quirks, while all Clan mechs benefit from CLPL default range. Which makes any such comparisons invalid.

IS ballistics have the PPFLD advantage but that is offset by so many things such as weight, slot, range, and the inability to equip Targeting computer. Clan ballistics are not flat out inferior, period.

Finally, IS mechs with Std engine sacrifices a lot of mobility and/or firepower for that survivability. The survivability is not even that much since Std engine is usually smaller, which means the mech can't even torso twist as fast as bigger XL engined ones--and they fall to CT destruction all the same.

QuantumButler, on 04 January 2017 - 06:14 AM, said:

How can clanners hope to compete with the power of the dreaded Long Range Atlas?



Behold the power of something like 6 million single heatsinks

He did not even use the Atlas-K. That 15% energy range on Atlas-K makes it a WTFBBQ OP mech, don't you know? All Clanners shake in their boots when they see the Atlas-K.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2017 - 06:26 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

STOP. INCLUDING. QUIRKS. WHEN. COMPARING. WEAPONS.

Lol, yeah, I see.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

important heat neutral build that even stays neutral on hot maps and even pwoersthe comand console and bap utility and superior max STD speed and survivibility. Also it cna still keep 50% of its firepower in zombiemode..
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c518c827cf82f0

Here, let me optimize that for you
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2f90f87226829ea

Now the lights won't be able to backstab you and stop you from designating targets for lrm support, you'll be able to crit people with your machine gun, and you'll have heat neutral ER large lasers. The build unfortunately loses the active probe and command console to pick up more narc ammo.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 04 January 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

STOP. INCLUDING. QUIRKS. WHEN. COMPARING. WEAPONS.

LOL, no you have to include quirks, because the utility of a wepaon is in conjunction with the chassis it's used on. and when you want to compare the possibilities the IS has and the clans you need to account these too.

Snazzy Dragon, on 04 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

Here, let me optimize that for you
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2f90f87226829ea

Now the lights won't be able to backstab you and stop you from designating targets for lrm support, you'll be able to crit people with your machine gun, and you'll have heat neutral ER large lasers. The build keeps the command console but unfortuneately it loses the active probe to pick up more narc ammo.

but ammo can explode and 110% heat efficiency isn't enough when someone usses flamers on you. this is already a compeltely different build. thats like comparing a urbie and an imp.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2017 - 06:29 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kshahdoo, on 04 January 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

Lol, yeah, I see.

And I included perfect reason why, but you chose to ignore it. Pfft, whatever.

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

LOL, no you have to include quirks, because the utility of a wepaon is in conjunction with the chassis it's used on. and when you want to compare the possibilities the IS has and the clans you need to account these too.

No you don't. If you include quirks on everything, then base tech will never be balanced. Are you seriously gonna say that IS LBX10 is better than Clan LBX10 just because Legend Killer has 25% cooldown quirk? That's flat out idiotic!

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2017 - 06:29 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

important heat neutral build that even stays neutral on hot maps and ontop powers the comand console and bap utility and superior max STD speed and survivibility. Also it can still keep 50% of its firepower in zombiemode..
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d56931605880107

2017 meta spotted.

Excuse me I think you'll find he was probably running it like this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7cca6bcc08cef27

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

And I included perfect reason why, but you chose to ignore it. Pfft, whatever.



No you don't. If you include quirks on everything, then base tech will never be balanced. Are you seriously gonna say that IS LBX10 is better than Clan LBX10 just because Legend Killer has 25% cooldown quirk? That's flat out idiotic!

you can never balance base tech because a balanced basetech WILL force quirks because chassis aren't equal. This is exactly the broken thinking why we currently have such a bad balance. And when people build mechs they include tech and mechquirks. So you have to see how the tech + the mechquirks turn out to see if the balance for the chassis compared to other chassis is ok or not. And then you adjust the chssis not in line by either nerfing or buffing.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

you can never balance base tech because a balanced basetech WILL force quirks because chassis aren't equal. This is exactly the broken thinking why we currently have such a bad balance. And when people build mechs they include tech and mechquirks. So you have to see how the tech + the mechquirks turn out to see if the balance for the chassis compared to other chassis is ok or not. And then you adjust the chssis not in line by either nerfing or buffing.

Quirks will never go away because perfect balance will never be achieved. However, balanced tech for both sides will mean IS mechs in general will require far less quirks to compete with Clan mechs. That's indisputable truth. You cannot twist that logic in anyway.

Therefore, one must balance the tech first (such as IS XL/Endo/Ferro vs Clan XL/Endo/Ferro) and then add quirks when necessary.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

you can never balance base tech because a balanced basetech WILL force quirks because chassis aren't equal. This is exactly the broken thinking why we currently have such a bad balance. And when people build mechs they include tech and mechquirks. So you have to see how the tech + the mechquirks turn out to see if the balance for the chassis compared to other chassis is ok or not. And then you adjust the chssis not in line by either nerfing or buffing.

you can add quirks if and only if all the base balance mechanism is at its end - and its not.

• we have still the array death star shooting
  
• we have still a non working heat mechanism
  
• we have not yet tonnage parity (so any MM mechanism that uses tonnage is simple bad)

quirks are primary for flavour and should neither change on regular basis nor be used to remove heavy balance issues.

The main issue with quirks is that they are not consistent - to build on quirks is like building on sand - if you like.

The 75ton TimberWolf Mech will always be the best bang for the buck - its build on hard facts - those will not change. Same for the EBJ - will not change

but the BlackKnight, Hopper, Atlas only have temporary strength because of quirks

Edited by Karl Streiger, 04 January 2017 - 06:42 AM.

[Lily from animove]

QuantumButler, on 04 January 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

Excuse me I think you'll find he was probably running it like this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7cca6bcc08cef27

so the poor mans edition for those that can't afford dhs upgrade?

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:36 AM, said:

Quirks will never go away because perfect balance will never be achieved. However, balanced tech for both sides will mean IS mechs in general will require far less quirks to compete with Clan mechs. That's indisputable truth. You cannot twist that logic in anyway.

Therefore, one must balance the tech first (such as IS XL/Endo/Ferro vs Clan XL/Endo/Ferro) and then add quirks when necessary.

thats indisputeable nonsense, if you now balance tech what do you do when the Is ever gets new tech? rebalance evertyhing again, and requirk evertyhign again including the mechs? thats even less feasable and makes less sense. there are still clanmechs worse than many is mechs and if you balance tech you just shift even more quirks to these mechs, which emans you just have those uberquirks somewhere else. ou ar elike soemoen who wants to build a garage and for this rebulds the entire house. thats load of efforts for noth achieveing anything better just achieveing it in a different way more effort consuming way.

Karl Streiger, on 04 January 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

you can add quirks if and only if all the base balance mechanism is at its end.
quirks are primary for flavour and should neither change on regular basis nor be used to remove heavy balance issues.

The main issue with quirks is that they are not consistent - to build on quirks is like building on sand - if you like.

The 75ton TimberWolf Mech will always be the best bang for the buck - its build on hard facts - those will not change. Same for the EBJ - will not change

but the BlackKnight, Hopper, Atlas only have temporary strength because of quirks

if you balance tech the TBW will not be the best bang for buck, because then you will find a IS mech being better due to: zepellin dome cockpit. not hardlock equipment. full customisation. Your hard facst aren't hard facts in such a case anymore. The TBR geometry isn't the best one. But the current TBR is simply the most optimsied omnimehc we have. But any other 75t mech that had a hmaoid shape and be a battlemech would instantly be better if we had tech balance, no matter if that mech would be clan or is side.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2017 - 06:45 AM.

[El Bandito]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

thats indisputeable nonsense, if you now balance tech what do you do when the Is ever gets new tech? rebalance evertyhing again, and requirk evertyhign again including the mechs? thats even less feasable and makes less sense. there are still clanmechs worse than many is mechs and if you balance tech you just shift even more quirks to these mechs, which emans you just have those uberquirks somewhere else. ou ar elike soemoen who wants to build a garage and for this rebulds the entire house. thats load of efforts for noth achieveing anything better just achieveing it in a different way more effort consuming way.

1. On the contrary, new tech will require far less quirk shifting, cause once base tech is equalized, there are less quirks to shuffle in the first place. Not to mention, new techs such as X-Pulse, and Light Gauss are sidegrade, rather than upgrade--the power balance will not shift drastically. And certain tech such as LFE simply does not have to be in the game, period, if the base tech balance is good enough.

2. PGI generally will not need to add more quirks to those "bad" Clan mechs, because after the tech rebalance, most IS mechs will lose quirks, so it will even out. Simple logic.

3. PGI is already starting to continue tech rebalance--the Gauss and DHS changes are just the beginning. Even they are starting to realize that you cannot put bandages upon bandages on multiple fractures and call it a day.

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

if you balance tech the TBW will not be the best bang for buck, because then you will find a IS mech being better due to: zepellin dome cockpit. not hardlock equipment. full customisation. Your hard facst aren't hard facts in such a case anymore. The TBR geometry isn't the best one. But the current TBR is simply the most optimsied omnimehc we have. But any other 75t mech that had a hmaoid shape and be a battlemech would instantly be better if we had tech balance, no matter if that mech would be clan or is side.

That's battlemech vs. omnimech issue, rather than IS vs. Clan issue. Remember, IS will have its own omnis soon, and thanks to tech imbalance, many will suck even worse than Clan omnis.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 January 2017 - 06:56 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

if you balance tech the TBW will not be the best bang for buck, because then you will find a IS mech being better due to: not zepellin dome cockpit. not hardlock equipment. full customisation. Your hard facst aren't hard facts in such a case anymore. The TBR geometry isn't the best one. But the current TBR is simply the most optimsied omnimehc we have. But any other 75t mech that had a hmaoid shape and be a battlemech would instantly be better if we had tech balance, no matter if that mech would be clan or is side.

when you got one?

when 75t Clan mech can be compared with 75t IS mech - because the base balance is achieved - you have your quirks on armor and structure to neuter the hitbox geometry issue
when you have low and high mounts you might use some quirks to make low mounts slightly better

and so on.... but you don't add simple 25 or even 50% of anything there and then - you don't modify heat production, burn duration or velocity without a very good reason - those values have to be fixed - because they are directly tied to balance)

You change cool down and range without bigger issues.

[Tarogato]

brroleg, on 03 January 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

Challenge accepted

here is exact stats http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER PPC
HPS (heat per second):3.50

ER PPC
HPS (heat per second): 3.38

3.50 - 3.38 = 0.12

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation rate (both for IS and Clan): 0.15

0.12 / 0.15 = 0.8(1)

C-ER PPC needs 0.8(1) more heatsinks than IS ER PPC

C-ER PPC weight 6t
Double heatsink weight 1t

6+1 = 7 ton

7 ton (and 4 crit slots) is true weight of C-ER PPC while IS ER PPC weight is 7 ton (and 3 crit slot)

BUT TEH CLAN RANGE

Every IS mech with more than 2 energy hardpoints has +10% energy range quirk, which makes IS ER PPC range 1782 (while C-ER PPC range 1620)

BUT TEH CLAN TC

Sure. Lets count for two C-ER PPC build.

Each C-ER PPC needs additional 1 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

2 * C-ER PPC + 2 Double Heatsinks + TC VII = 21 ton and 15 crit slots for 1782 range

Now lets count for two IS ER PPC build

2 * IS ER PPC = 14 ton and 6 crit slots for 1782 (cause +10% quirk on every mech) range

So clan pays additional 7 tons and 9 crit slots for same range.

BUT TEH CLAN ER PPC SPLASH DAMAGE

2.5 dmg for 2 adjusted components worth the aditional 7 tons and 9 crit slots? I think not

I love how much you ignore the fact that nobody that plays competitively uses IS ERPPCs and everybody uses cERPPCs. When your maths fly completely in the face of and contradict the meta, question your maths. Because there are players who are better than you, and you should trust they have a good reason for choosing what they play, even if they don't fully understand it either.

[Lily from animove]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2017 - 06:47 AM, said:

1. On the contrary, new tech will require far less quirk shifting, cause once base tech is equalized, there are less quirks to shuffle in the first place. Not to mention, new techs such as X-Pulse, and Light Gauss are sidegrade, rather than upgrade--the power balance will not shift drastically.

se thats where you are just wrong, you need to balance the IS ERML to the CERML, but your current claim wants a CERML to be balanced to the ISML. Thats the reason why new tech would NOT be a sidegrade, thats why the new tech would make you need to comepltely overhaul anything, because now you need to balance the ISML and CERML to the new coming ISERML. and then also readjust all the chassis that you quriked to make work with the ISML and CERML balance base that the new laser just broke.

Karl Streiger, on 04 January 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

when you got one?

when 75t Clan mech can be compared with 75t IS mech - because the base balance is achieved - you have your quirks on armor and structure to neuter the hitbox geometry issue

when this happens you then invalidated your very own statement:

Karl Streiger, on 04 January 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

The 75ton TimberWolf Mech will always be the best bang for the buck - its build on hard facts - those will not change. Same for the EBJ - will not change

fact is, the TBR is currently a strong chassis, fact is also, any battlemech on humaoid shape with equal tech would make the TBR inferior. And this is where your above statement is jsut false because then the TBR is not "ALWAYS the best bang for the buck"

your statement was by facts already not true.