96 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

El Bandito, on 05 January 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

On the other hand, I can make much better difference in 8v8 and turn the tide in a losing game. In 12 v 12, it is way harder to carry, thus one has to be at even bigger mercy of pug lottery. Not to mention, many ammo based loadouts will run out of ammo before I can carry my idiotic teammates.

Not to mention, deathballs were far fewer in 8v8 than 12v12 and people actually used different routes, even in small maps such as the old Frozen City.

Ultimately, 8v8 allows for much better matchmaking, since the participant number per match is smaller. And that alone is worth it.

I played through this era and I don't recall deathballs to be far fewer or matchmaking to be any better. There are still deathballs and the ones who form up generally wins and the ones who overextend --- and loses the first two mechs --- tends to quickly lose. Heck the side that also tends to have the less assaults, because the assaults let you stay in the game longer, tends to lose.

I also remember the shift from 8 v 8 to 12 v 12 and the games suddenly felt more unpredictable in outcome.

Players generally dislike a game with cascading stomps, and the failure of PvP in Armored Warfare can be attributable to this reason, and very likely also prevented further growth of MWO.

This is not saying that I didn't enjoy the game then, which I did with nostalgic memories, but I know the situation isn't long term healthy and sustainable.

Edited by Anjian, 06 January 2017 - 12:27 AM.

[Drakenn]

Anjian, on 06 January 2017 - 12:25 AM, said:

I played through this era and I don't recall deathballs to be far fewer or matchmaking to be any better. There are still deathballs and the ones who form up generally wins and the ones who overextend --- and loses the first two mechs --- tends to quickly lose. Heck the side that also tends to have the less assaults, because the assaults let you stay in the game longer, tends to lose.

Sure, there were teams that still deathballed, but you stood a chance of breaking that up with a half decent flank, with even 2 mechs.

What it boils down to (and I feel like many will agree) is that I don't have fun standing around, peeking around a corner and getting blown away instantly, or on the other side, I don't like peeking around a corner taking pot shots for 10 minutes until the team is all but finished and going out 12 v 4 to finish them off... I enjoy the fight, the variation in builds... the way the game is played right now, just isn't fun.

[Tristan Winter]

I would like 8v8 for QP and 12v12 for FP.

Then MWO would have 4v4, 8v8 and 12v12, which would pretty much cover everyone's needs. Maybe, down the line, even 1v1 that doesn't require premium time.

I don't think QP with both 8v8 and 12v12 would work. Because one option is likely to be more popular than the other, so the least popular queue would suffer.

Unfortunately, 4v4 is in a bad place because it's mostly just Griffins and hyper-quirked Hunchbacks vs Novas and Stormcrows (unless the 50 ton cap is already in effect. I haven't been paying attention). The sorry state of light mechs becomes a lot more visible in Scout mode, but neither the community nor PGI seems very worried about this at present, which is... both surprising and not surprising.

[El Bandito]

Anjian, on 06 January 2017 - 12:25 AM, said:

I played through this era and I don't recall deathballs to be far fewer or matchmaking to be any better. There are still deathballs and the ones who form up generally wins and the ones who overextend --- and loses the first two mechs --- tends to quickly lose. Heck the side that also tends to have the less assaults, because the assaults let you stay in the game longer, tends to lose. I also remember the shift from 8 v 8 to 12 v 12 and the games suddenly felt more unpredictable in outcome. Players generally dislike a game with cascading stomps, and the failure of PvP in Armored Warfare can be attributable to this reason, and very likely also prevented further growth of MWO. This is not saying that I didn't enjoy the game then, which I did with nostalgic memories, but I know the situation isn't long term healthy and sustainable.

1. I played through that era too, and one reason why matchmaking back then wasn't that good was because groups could drop with solo players, and naturally, roll over them. Now, with solo-q and group-q separated, the matchmaking under 8v8 will be far better than that of 12v12.

2. There were indeed fewer deathballs in 8v8, and more of the maps were used to good effect. In the old Frozen City, for example, the tunnel, and well as the valley were used to good effect by single or two players at a time. The old maps are gone, but individual smaller battles can definitely happen more, in 8v8.

3. Even if assuming that both of our expereinces are biased, thus unreliable, it is indisputable truth that game performance will noticeably benefit from 8v8. A lot of people who used to play MWO had suddenly couldn't get the same performance once MWO was switched to 12v12. Consequently PGI had lost some playerbase. Once we switch back to 8v8, there will be a lot more people who can play this un-optimized CPU hogging game. Not to mention HSR is heavily dependent on the amount of action going on, which means fewer people participating equals better HSR.

Therefore I still think 8v8 in pug queue is still the better idea.

[Siegegun]

No. Some of us like 12v12 over 8v8. I also played in the 8v8 days and in my opinion everyone wanting it has forgotten how one sided the battles could be. It is already bad enough when 1-2 played disconnect or never connect. 10v12 makes it difficult, 8v6 becomes a roll. Someone up there posted how they cannot affect a game as much in a 12v12 vs an 8v8, that's exactly one of the many reasons I prefer 12v12.

Edited by Siegegun, 06 January 2017 - 03:48 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Siegegun, on 06 January 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

No. Some of us like 12v12 over 8v8. I also played in the 8v8 days and in my opinion everyone wanting it has forgotten how one sided the battles could be. It is already bad enough when 1-2 played disconnect or never connect. 10v12 makes it difficult, 8v6 becomes a roll. Someone up there posted how they cannot affect a game as much in a 12v12 vs an 8v8, that's exactly one of the many reasons I prefer 12v12.

On the other hand, the odds of 2 disconnects in 8v8 are considerably smaller than the odds of 2 disconnects in 12v12. And the ability to carry your team to victory is bigger in 8v8 than in 12v12. I'm not particularly worried about this aspect of things.

[Roughneck45]

RestosIII, on 05 January 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

We'll also never get back the tunnel at Forest Colony. RIP.

I miss that tunnel.

It died when that team (can't recall who this second) camped it against Lords in the first streamed tournament with the skycam.

We should get 4v4, 8v8, and 12v12 que's. Less mechs on the field changes the dynamics and gives us some diversity.

Edited by Roughneck45, 06 January 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[Drakenn]

Siegegun, on 06 January 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

No. Some of us like 12v12 over 8v8. I also played in the 8v8 days and in my opinion everyone wanting it has forgotten how one sided the battles could be. It is already bad enough when 1-2 played disconnect or never connect. 10v12 makes it difficult, 8v6 becomes a roll. Someone up there posted how they cannot affect a game as much in a 12v12 vs an 8v8, that's exactly one of the many reasons I prefer 12v12.

Not sure if you noticed, but everyone who is saying they want 8v8 is saying have it as well as 12v12 in some capacity. You could still play 12v12, you just wouldn't be seeing me .

[Novakaine]

Nope.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Really hope this gets a trial run for a month at least.

Edited by The Unstoppable Puggernaut, 06 January 2017 - 07:25 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Roughneck45, on 06 January 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

I miss that tunnel.

It died when that team (can't recall who this second) camped it against Lords in the first streamed tournament with the skycam.

We should get 4v4, 8v8, and 12v12 que's. Less mechs on the field changes the dynamics and gives us some diversity.

Small maps and the inclusion of seismic sensor killed the tunnel rushes in Frozen City and Forest Colony.

12v12 is OK for faction play, but 8v8 should be public queue IMO. 4v4 as scouting is fine by me!

[Xmith]

El Bandito, on 05 January 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

On the other hand, I can make much better difference in 8v8 and turn the tide in a losing game. In 12 v 12, it is way harder to carry, thus one has to be at even bigger mercy of pug lottery. Not to mention, many ammo based loadouts will run out of ammo before I can carry my idiotic teammates.

Not to mention, deathballs were far fewer in 8v8 than 12v12 and people actually used different routes, even in small maps such as the old Frozen City.

Ultimately, 8v8 allows for much better matchmaking, since the participant number per match is smaller. And that alone is worth it.

There were just as many death balls as there is now. The only difference is the size of the death balls.

It seems people think that there be less stomps with 8v8. It will not because of how this game is played and the different levels of skill between players.

Staying together and focus fire will rule till the end of time.

[Sjorpha]

I think quickplay should be 8v8, and FP should stay 12v12.

[C E Dwyer]

Reverting back to 8 v 8 would be an admission to both the community and the gaming industry, that P.G.I are incapable of balancing and making their product fun.

It will also make mechs that are already powerful, more so, and the same goes for weak ones or builds, as each mech will be an eight of the total firepower, rather than a twelfth.

Same goes for disco's afk jocks, and idiots that just want to charge about making whoop whoop noises. in their LRM5 no tag panther.

People might think they want 8 v 8 because they remember it being better.

However the reason it was better wasn't because it was 8 v 8 but because the game was better balanced with less of the O.P mechs and high hard point builds, that came in towards the end of 2015 and the match maker used ELO system and not the awful P.S.R system with no separate skill rating for each weight class.

[JediPanther]

I miss the 8 vs 8 times. K2's could ppc both barrels without mega heat. People used more team work. No 50+ alphas. The night mares of dual ac 40 K2s and srm 6s A1s. Jenners that would jump jet and use the srms. If they were to put it in as an option I'd probably start to buying things again with real money.

[El Bandito]

Xmith, on 06 January 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

There were just as many death balls as there is now. The only difference is the size of the death balls.

It seems people think that there be less stomps with 8v8. It will not because of how this game is played and the different levels of skill between players.

Staying together and focus fire will rule till the end of time.

1. There will be less stomps because 8v8 will have easier matchmaking due to the smaller number of participants. Fewer open valve matches in general.

2. Staying together and focusing fire will be less effective in 8v8 than now, which increases TTK, which is fantastic.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 January 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[Drakenn]

Cathy, on 06 January 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

Reverting back to 8 v 8 would be an admission to both the community and the gaming industry, that P.G.I are incapable of balancing and making their product fun.

It will also make mechs that are already powerful, more so, and the same goes for weak ones or builds, as each mech will be an eight of the total firepower, rather than a twelfth.

Same goes for disco's afk jocks, and idiots that just want to charge about making whoop whoop noises. in their LRM5 no tag panther.

People might think they want 8 v 8 because they remember it being better.

However the reason it was better wasn't because it was 8 v 8 but because the game was better balanced with less of the O.P mechs and high hard point builds, that came in towards the end of 2015 and the match maker used ELO system and not the awful P.S.R system with no separate skill rating for each weight class.

I disagree. I think it will make MORE builds viable, due to TTK being a lot longer.... assaults would have a purpose other than "I can hold more guns than you"

[Roughneck45]

Cathy, on 06 January 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

People might think they want 8 v 8 because they remember it being better.

I enjoyed 8 mechs on the field for all the opposites of your negatives.

Not sure I agree about the mechs, what good is good and what isn't isn't. Mathematically I suppose you correct.

A disco hurts the team more, yeah, but individual performances can stand out more too. More risks can be taken because there are less mechs down range. Flanks can be performed with less fear of a firing line around every corner.

Mechs were OP back then too, PGI just decided to notch it up and release clans hahaha.

Still think we should have 12v12, 8v8, and 4v4 as quickplay options at all times.

Edited by Roughneck45, 06 January 2017 - 01:54 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

In many ways I prefer the 8v8 of old. There is a flaw in it however. With 8v8 getting the first kill and getting up by 2 kills were significant. Yes, a single assault could sometimes push against a pair or even three enemy mechs holding a point...but if felt like we had a larger mix of mediums mixed in back in the day. With the heavy and assault tilted mech stables I guess most people have I do not know how the 8v8 results would be tilted. Back when there was only 2 or 3 assault mechs people played mediums and lights just to play something different than the few large mech chassis that existed.

But I would love to give it a shot and see what happens. Maybe when server traffic is lower than a set number of players it could revert to 8v8 to get more games going. Then as players increase it goes to 12 v 12 to get more players on line at the same time.

[Mister Blastman]

Yes, 8v8 please!