96 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 13 January 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

In 8v8, you are more likely to recover from the snowball effect. Having more players on the field tends to mean things die a bit faster because you can be in multiple areas and punish by having greater numbers.

When you have fewer players on the battlefield, your movement becomes tighter, but you have a lot more space to operate because there are fewer bodies trying to "get their shot".

I'd argue with 12 players on the field, that's 11 other targets for the enemy to shoot at, so focus fire is less of an issue than in 8v8, and therefore TTK is actually higher.

There's more bodies for everyone to try and "get their shot" at.

If you're constantly running out in front of 12 enemies match after match, you're doing something wrong. If you get your 8v8 and you do the same stupid thing, you're still going to die quickly.

8v8 doesn't fix bad playing. It didn't back when had it before, and it won't fix it after if 12v12 goes away.

[El Bandito]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

You're wrong. PGI couldn't make it work with 8v8, more or less broke it in 12v12, so you want to go back to a non-working 8v8.

You're crazy dude.

Except back then we had groups playing with solos. That's what caused a lot of balance issues. Now we can get to have solo-q only 8v8.

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

I think you're wrong, unless PGI has turned it back on recently and not told us. There's a thread with proof positive of Tier 5's being grouped with Tier 1's in quick play.

Show me the proof then, because I read in a thread that the supposedly T5 guy clarified that he was in T4 when he matched with T1 players.

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

Hardly, but you keep believin'!

I don't care what you think, as I had already experienced it many times. Me killing 4 mechs in 8v8 is far more decisive than killing 4 mechs in 12v12.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2017 - 10:39 AM.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'd argue with 12 players on the field, that's 11 other targets for the enemy to shoot at, so focus fire is less of an issue than in 8v8, and therefore TTK is actually higher.

There's more bodies for everyone to try and "get their shot" at.

If you're constantly running out in front of 12 enemies match after match, you're doing something wrong. If you get your 8v8 and you do the same stupid thing, you're still going to die quickly.

8v8 doesn't fix bad playing. It didn't back when had it before, and it won't fix it after if 12v12 goes away.

TTK is actually defined by your mech and your skills.

The worse you are at the game, the worse your TTK happens to be. On the other end, the better you are at the game, the better your TTK happens to be.

The thing about 8v8 isn't as much about TTK specifically... when you know you have fewer people on the battlefield, everything matters. When you have more players, some people tend to be a bit more loose... thinking they can get away with capping a point or something along the lines, and then get capped/killed themselves because there are more bodies around to respond.

The number of players does change the dynamic a lot more than people realize (most notably in comp, but it was always the case when 8v8 was still around).

There's a difference in feeling when you go around the corner and see 12 players vs seeing 8 players. While this is the most unlikely of scenarios (due to spacing and whatnot), it's actually much easier to push when you know there are less people around the corner than the number you have next to you.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 January 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Except back then we had groups playing with solos. That's what caused a lot of balance issues. Now we can get to have solo-q only 8v8.

I don't see the logic in having a majority of the matches where 8 people refuse to communicate in VOIP, play poorly, and die quickly is going to be ANY BETTER than when we had 12 people refusing to communication via VOIP, playing poorly, and dying quickly.

THE ONLY affect if MIGHT have is to:

Short term: Decrease match search time.

The affect I'm damn near certain it WILL have is:

Long term: Drive away more players, resulting in longer match search times.

Quote

Show me the proof then, because I read in a thread that the supposedly T5 guy clarified that he was in T4 when he matched with T1 players.

What difference does it make that he's T4 or T5? The rules were SUPPOSED TO BE that T1 players would NEVER be matched with/against T4 or T5 players, PERIOD.

There's your proof, right there.

Quote

I don't care what you think, as I had already experienced it many times. Me killing 4 mechs in 8v8 is far more decisive than killing 4 mechs in 12v12.

Janitorial work being what is in 12v12, yeah it's a lot harder to do...

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Show me the proof then, because I read in a thread that the supposedly T5 guy clarified that he was in T4 when he matched with T1 players.

To be fair, that still shouldn't be happening. It's supposed to be a spread of two tiers, so the lowest that should appear in a game with T1 is T3 unless there is a bug causing it to loop back up to T5 and T4 when it looks at the "+" part of the range.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 13 January 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[El Bandito]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

What difference does it make that he's T4 or T5? The rules were SUPPOSED TO BE that T1 players would NEVER be matched with/against T4 or T5 players, PERIOD.

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

To be fair, that still shouldn't be happening. It's supposed to be a spread of two tiers, so the lowest that should appear in a game with T1 is T3 unless there is a bug causing it to loop back up to T5 and T4 when it looks at the "+" part of the range.

You need to get up to date. The rule is that T4 players can be matched with T1 if the MM valve has been loosened, but not T5. If the MM has not been loosened, then T1s can only be matched with T1-3. Don't quote me, go ask Russ himself.

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

I don't see the logic in having a majority of the matches where 8 people refuse to communicate in VOIP, play poorly, and die quickly is going to be ANY BETTER than when we had 12 people refusing to communication via VOIP, playing poorly, and dying quickly.

THE ONLY affect if MIGHT have is to:

Short term: Decrease match search time.

The affect I'm damn near certain it WILL have is:

Long term: Drive away more players, resulting in longer match search times

I'm gonna throw your quote right back at you as a response:

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

Hardly, but you keep believin'!

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2017 - 10:52 AM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 January 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

To be fair, that still shouldn't be happening. It's supposed to be a spread of two tiers, so the lowest that should appear in a game with T1 is T3 unless there is a bug causing it to loop back up to T5 and T4 when it looks at the "+" part of the range.

It's easier to accept that it stopped working, due to the influx of potato farming.

[vettie]

Just a thought...

Anyone wonder why the World Championship Tourney was 8v8 format?

Always been curious on that one.

and, oh yeah, I like 8v8 solo queue

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 13 January 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

TTK is actually defined by your mech and your skills.

The worse you are at the game, the worse your TTK happens to be. On the other end, the better you are at the game, the better your TTK happens to be.

We'll partially disagree on that one.

Those potatos I've come up against that stand still to fire their weapons attempting to face tank me that have died with damage only to their cockpit will disagree with you too.

Doesn't matter what 'mech they're in, their style of play/level of skill is what's getting them killed.

The number of 'mechs on the field won't fix that.

Quote

The thing about 8v8 isn't as much about TTK specifically... when you know you have fewer people on the battlefield, everything matters. When you have more players, some people tend to be a bit more loose... thinking they can get away with capping a point or something along the lines, and then get capped/killed themselves because there are more bodies around to respond.

The number of players does change the dynamic a lot more than people realize (most notably in comp, but it was always the case when 8v8 was still around).

There's a difference in feeling when you go around the corner and see 12 players vs seeing 8 players. While this is the most unlikely of scenarios (due to spacing and whatnot), it's actually much easier to push when you know there are less people around the corner than the number you have next to you.

I'm sorry but this apparent underlying concept that a potato will stop being so much of a potato because he some how realizes that things matter more in 8v8 than in 12v12 is just a logical fallacy.

A potato will still do the same stupid things. We'll STILL see those idiots trying to cap more than fight because their skills pretty much top out at "Drive 'mech to square, stand on square until flashy thingy is full, move on to next square..."

1v1, 4v4, 8v8, infinity-v-infinity, won't cure it.

Bad play is bad play, and having less players on the field makes everyone ELSE feel the results of it more, not less.

[El Bandito]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Anti-potato rant

You seem to have a lot of hostility towards potatoes. Perhaps you need to take it easy and just have fun with the game? Or you know, play group queue with units...

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 13 January 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

I'm sorry but this apparent underlying concept that a potato will stop being so much of a potato because he some how realizes that things matter more in 8v8 than in 12v12 is just a logical fallacy.

A potato will still do the same stupid things. We'll STILL see those idiots trying to cap more than fight because their skills pretty much top out at "Drive 'mech to square, stand on square until flashy thingy is full, move on to next square..."

1v1, 4v4, 8v8, infinity-v-infinity, won't cure it.

Bad play is bad play, and having less players on the field makes everyone ELSE feel the results of it more, not less.

It's less about potatoes (they will still die on their own), it's more about the pace of play.

It took me a bit of time to adjust when 12v12 replaced 8v8. It's the "speed of aggression" that must be played at a much different pace.

Even if it's just rounding a corner, there's a bit more caution applied in 12v12 than in 8v8. Part of it is battlefield awareness, but it's also about positioning. You can maximize the stronger positions with more bodies... whereas you are less likely to do so with less bodies.

Sometimes it's really as simple matter of numbers.

[Dimento Graven]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

You seem to have a lot of hostility towards potatoes. Perhaps you need to take it easy and just have fun with the game? Or you know, play group queue with units...

I dunno, seems like the true anti-potato crowd are those begging to regress the game back to 8v8 days.

They all state that the reason to do so is to somehow "reduce/eliminate" the affects of potatos on game play.

You get one potato in 8v8 - that's ~13% potato in your group.
You get one potato in 12v12 - that's ~8% potato in your group.

Call me crazy but ~8% < ~13%, but I'd much rather have the larger group to potentially ameliorate the affects.

If you 8v8 folks are so ready to rock and roll in 8v8, private matches are for you. Go have fun.

If in your private match 8v8 fiesta you manage to regularly deplete the population from group play, you'll have won the argument, and probably get your 8v8 back.

Deathlike, on 13 January 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

...It took me a bit of time to adjust when 12v12 replaced 8v8. It's the &quot;speed of aggression&quot; that must be played at a much different pace.

Even if it's just rounding a corner, there's a bit more caution applied in 12v12 than in 8v8. Part of it is battlefield awareness, but it's also about positioning. You can maximize the stronger positions with more bodies... whereas you are less likely to do so with less bodies.

Sometimes it's really as simple matter of numbers.

So, what I get from this statement is that it's EASIER to play in 8v8. You don't have to think as much or be as situationally aware in 8v8 as you do in 12v12.

So in other words, 8v8 dumbs the game down.

I'm against this for that reason too. I prefer that PGI aspires to the "thinking man's shooter" we were originally promised.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 13 January 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

It's easier to accept that it stopped working, due to the influx of potato farming.

You can farm potatoes even within T1, tho'...

[WarHippy]

Drakenn, on 05 January 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

I am not saying that we should get rid of 12v12 completely, but I feel like with 8v8 things would be a little more balanced.

With the current 12v12 meta people just ball up and stand around waiting for the enemy to push out, and if anyone tries to make a push, they get shot down instantly.... if there were only 8 enemies to contend with, a small group would have an easier job getting into a flanking position, thus adding to the overall fun, in my opinion.

Again, not saying that 12v12 doesn't have it's place, I would just really like the option to do either, like many other games offer.


Just my humble opinion.

Personally, I prefer 12v12 in almost all cases, but I would be willing to consider going back to 8v8(at least in QP) if two things happen. One, I want the income restored to the earlier levels(we took a pretty big hit when 12v12 came out), and two voting is abandoned completely and forever. If we can't go back to hard mode choices make it all random, but voting needs to go.

[Brenden]

You know, I could very well see this coming back in a sort of "arena" mode.

[WarHippy]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 January 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Something crazy happens when fewer mechs occupy the same space we normally stomp around in: more of the map gets used effectively. That adds variety to the gameplay. Changes up the routine. You see it often in scouting mode, where people engage in odd locations compared to 12v12 mode. I love it.

That happens because people are looking for the data caps and the enemy mechs. Being spread out and having fights happen in different places is entirely because of the design of the game mode and has pretty much nothing to do with the number of mechs playing.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 January 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Further, less mechs means a higher TTK. Right now, one bad moment of exposure and blam. Game over. It was extremely rare in the 8v8 period when enough concentrated firepower existed such that a critical number of enemy mechs could focus individuals at any given moment.

TTK was pretty bad during 8v8 as well people just have rose colored glasses for something that was. You are still going to drop very quickly if more than one mech is focusing you no matter if you are playing 8v8 or 12v12. You also forget equipment and mechs available during most of 8v8 was very different from what it is now. 8v8 was not and will not be this glorious experience that you think it was or will be.

[WarHippy]

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

1. I played through that era too, and one reason why matchmaking back then wasn't that good was because groups could drop with solo players, and naturally, roll over them. Now, with solo-q and group-q separated, the matchmaking under 8v8 will be far better than that of 12v12.

They started removing groups and limiting groups before we moved to 12v12. 8v8 or 12v12 stomps will always happen.

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

2. There were indeed fewer deathballs in 8v8, and more of the maps were used to good effect. In the old Frozen City, for example, the tunnel, and well as the valley were used to good effect by single or two players at a time. The old maps are gone, but individual smaller battles can definitely happen more, in 8v8.

No there was still a lot of deathballs, and the maps were used in the same amount as they were in 12v12. With 12v12 I used the tunnel all the damn time and I get into smaller battles a lot even now. Hell, going tunnel was often of great way to cause chaos and grab a few kills because so many people had the same herd mentality and ignored it for one reason or another.

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

3. Even if assuming that both of our expereinces are biased, thus unreliable, it is indisputable truth that game performance will noticeably benefit from 8v8. A lot of people who used to play MWO had suddenly couldn't get the same performance once MWO was switched to 12v12. Consequently PGI had lost some playerbase. Once we switch back to 8v8, there will be a lot more people who can play this un-optimized CPU hogging game. Not to mention HSR is heavily dependent on the amount of action going on, which means fewer people participating equals better HSR.

A lot of people have long since upgraded their computers since 12v12 was added, and frankly if I can play 12v12 with my old *** laptop and still have it playable I think that is pretty much a non-issue at this point. Even if it is still an issue they would be better served changing game engines than lowering teams to 8v8.

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Therefore I still think 8v8 in pug queue is still the better idea.

I don't.

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

1. There will be less stomps because 8v8 will have easier matchmaking due to the smaller number of participants. Fewer open valve matches in general.

Considering PGI has said even before the change to PSR stomps were more frequent when the Elo between the two teams was closer I doubt that would be the case.

El Bandito, on 06 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

2. Staying together and focusing fire will be less effective in 8v8 than now, which increases TTK, which is fantastic.

How so? How is focus fire ever less effective? Considering even 1v1 you can drop an enemy mech pretty damn fast with focus fire of 2-3 enemy mechs you are going to drop it in the blink of an eye. I'm sorry, but all of this nonsense about TTK going up if we just switch to 8v8 is a pipe dream.

Drakenn, on 06 January 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

I disagree. I think it will make MORE builds viable, due to TTK being a lot longer.... assaults would have a purpose other than "I can hold more guns than you"

You would be wrong in that assumption.