68 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I find that LRMs don't get that much impact as tube count increases per rack. I mean LRM5 is even tighter than the artemised LRM10, the LRM15 to LRM20 it's a must. That means you could deal larger damage, yet still not deal all of it meaningfully as it's completely spread around the mech anyways, even hit the ground.

Understandably so, LRM10s, 15s, and 20s are powerful, but i do find that they begin to be a lot more wasteful as tube count increases. With an aimed amount of tubes, it's often more advantageous to just mount many smaller launchers than larger ones. Why use 2x LRM10A, when you can use 4x LRM5 w/o artemis, still even tighter spread, and has less tonnage required too?

I propose an LRM spread rework, none, it doesn't spread instead it targets the mech's individual components, distributed by algorithm of "Tracking Level", this in theory normalizes the LRMs' "spread", as components are hit proportionally with the amount of incoming LRMs, with little wasted missiles.

Tracking level dictates when a specific component is excluded or included, and how much missiles hit it per volley, also modified by chance by a bit. As Tracking Level increases, the outer components with the CT as the center, Head is also included at an even higher tracking strength (if allowed). Modifiers like NARC, TAG, and Artemis increases Tracking Level, and can stack, while certain conditions like target or launcher is under ECM effect without BAP/CAP, or no LOS .

These modifiers also does not completely become an integral part of a load-out, as instead it would be just to slap away debuffs. Instead of giving so much, the modifiers would instead prevent so much from being taken away. It's like BAP/CAP, it's not like you are guaranteed to get ECMed, but it's there when you do.

Tracking Level explained:

CT: 9
LT/RT: 7
LL/RL: 5
RA/LA: 3
HD: 1

With such value, every 40 missiles, CT will always attract 9 Missiles, the LT and RT will attract 7 missiles each, LL and RL will attract 5 missiles each, the RA and LA will attract 3 missiles each, and the Head will always attract 1 missile. If said component is destroyed, then the missile threshold is lowered and the destroyed component is no longer hit, e.g. if RT is removed along with the RA, the missile threshold is lowered from 40 to 30 = (40 - [7 {RT} + 3 {RA}]).

Chance is also a modifier, with the head for example, with only 1/40 2.5% chance of being homed, with a volley lower than 40, say only 5, then there is only 2.5% chance that 1 missile will be attracted to the head, else it would be towards something else. However when the max missile ratio is reached, in this case 40 total, then there will be ALWAYS the exact amount of hits as dictated by the table. The exceeding values, like 50, the remaining 10 would be chance-based. And when the homing count is reached, it will not attract any more missiles unless the rest is tracked equally.

Although this is not always the case -- arm-shielding or simply showing the side profile of your mech, while the missiles are on the way to their destination they are still blocked by the arm, or whatever is blocking it, be it cover or another mech. This simply means that missiles will fly towards a compartment, not automatically hit it.

Example Tracking Table:

Spoiler

Quote

Tracking Level 0: (Negative)

CT: 1
LT/RT: 1
LL/RL: 1
RA/LA: 1
Ground (Miss): 1

Ground is "part" of the mech, but it's not a component but just a random point the ground the mech's vicinity, though it always follow where the mech is currently standing unless lock is lost.

Quote

Tracking Level 1: (Default)

CT: 3
LT/RT: 2
LL/RL: 2
RA/LA: 1

Quote

Tracking Level 2: (Artemis or TAG or NARC)

CT: 5
LT/RT: 3
LL/RL: 3

Quote

Tracking Level 3: (Artemis and Tag, or Artemis and NARC, or NARC and TAG )

CT: 7
LT/RT: 5
HD: 1

Quote

Tracking Level 4: (Artemis and TAG and NARC)

CT: 9
LT/RT: 3
HD: 1

The values are just example, and details can change. However, that is the general idea, and can be worked around.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 January 2017 - 05:44 AM.

[Pjwned]

Oh god, can we just not try to have LRMs emulate SSRMs in any way? SSRMs are such a stupid & bad weapon system because their targeting mechanism is so lame and I don't want to see LRMs succumb to anything like that nonsense too.

I honestly don't see a problem with the mechanics of LRM spreading as is, which just leaves tweaking some numbers e.g normalizing missile spread for all launchers instead of screwing over bigger launchers by making them even more ridiculously inefficient, and if needed then other numbers can change too like how much the missiles spread out when fired indirectly etc.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 January 2017 - 02:00 AM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

My favorite part about LRMs is that 2 LRM10s for IS take less slots and the same weight as an LRM20 and will perform better, and because of hardpoint infaltion making the choice between two launchers and one is obvious.

[xengk]

Basically TT's LRM lock?
Each 5 missile will target 1 component.

I think the fastest fix would be to adjust missile spread and maybe cooldown.

All launcher size use the same spread as LRM15 or somewhere between LRM10 and LRM15.
Have multiple LRM5 let you fire fast but spread out damage, still annoying but not CT drilling.
Bigger launcher pack more missile into the same area, and give you better chance at hitting center mass.

Small launcher good at annoying/blinding target, bad at delivering meaningful damage.
Large launcher dealt damage to center mass, longer cooldown between shot.

Let Artemis IV upgrade move 30%~50% of the missile to center of the spread.

Snazzy Dragon, on 10 January 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

My favorite part about LRMs is that 2 LRM10s for IS take less slots and the same weight as an LRM20 and will perform better, and because of hardpoint infaltion making the choice between two launchers and one is obvious.

The only trade off is extra heat per launcher too, which is not an issue if you hang in the back away from threat, or have sufficient DHS.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

The6thMessenger, on 10 January 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

Tracking Strength explained:

CT: 9
LT/RT: 7
LL/RL: 5
RA/LA: 3
HD: 1

With such value, every 40 missiles, CT will always attract 9 Missiles, the LT and RT will attract 7 missiles each, LL and RL will attract 5 missiles each, the RA and LA will attract 3 missiles each, and the Head will always attract 1 missile. If said component is destroyed, then the missile threshold is removed, e.g. if RT is removed along with the RA, the missile threshold is lowered from 40 to 30 = (40 - [7 {RT} + 3 {RA}]).

Could convert the table stats to percentages to make it easier to calculate.

CT: 22.5%
LT/RT: 17.5%
LL/RL: 12.5%
RA/LA: 7.5%
HD: 2.5%

If every missile hit the way you describe it.

LRM's would shred light and medium mechs worse than SRM's or SSRM's.

The only chance lights have now is most LRM's not tracking their high speed well and missing.

[El Bandito]

I Zeratul I, on 10 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

Could convert the table stats to percentages to make it easier to calculate.

CT: 22.5%
LT/RT: 17.5%
LL/RL: 12.5%
RA/LA: 7.5%
HD: 2.5%

If every missile hit the way you describe it.

LRM's would shred light and medium mechs worse than SRM's or SSRM's.

The only chance lights have now is most LRM's not tracking their high speed well and missing.

Light and Meds do have the speed to get into cover. Personally, one silly reason I like LRM20's spread is because it can reliably hit the legs of those pesky Lights, and take them out of commission fast.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 January 2017 - 05:28 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

I Zeratul I, on 10 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

Could convert the table stats to percentages to make it easier to calculate.

CT: 22.5%
LT/RT: 17.5%
LL/RL: 12.5%
RA/LA: 7.5%
HD: 2.5%

If every missile hit the way you describe it.

LRM's would shred light and medium mechs worse than SRM's or SSRM's.

I didn't explained it as chance, because it does not solely rely on chance, it literally controls how much missiles hit. By pure chance, you literally have a small amount of chance that a certain part is hit more than they should be, which is not how the suggestion operates. 0.0625% chance may be small for a missile to track the head twice consecutively, but it's supposed to be 0% flat, until the rest has been hit by their designated amount of missiles.

To be fair, this still assumes the standard LRM rules like Lock required, visual required, as well as i have specified that LRMs don't necessarily hit components they just home on it, simple cover and torso twisting can block the incoming LRMs.

Also that's just example values, real values may differ on implementation.

I Zeratul I, on 10 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

The only chance lights have now is most LRM's not tracking their high speed well and missing.

As far as i'm concerned, that's their expertise.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 January 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[Baulven]

Pjwned, on 10 January 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

Oh god, can we just not try to have LRMs emulate SSRMs in any way? SSRMs are such a stupid & bad weapon system because their targeting mechanism is so lame and I don't want to see LRMs succumb to anything like that nonsense too.

I honestly don't see a problem with the mechanics of LRM spreading as is, which just leaves tweaking some numbers e.g normalizing missile spread for all launchers instead of screwing over bigger launchers by making them even more ridiculously inefficient, and if needed then other numbers can change too like how much the missiles spread out when fired indirectly etc.

I can only imagine your salty tears at streak LRMs.

[MacClearly]

Hey have you tried large pulse lasers or ppc? What about guass?

Seriously though unless there is something significant done to make the use of lrms require more skill absolutely zero buffs should be considered.

[Bombast]

LRM spread is actually pretty nice at the moment. While smaller launchers are tighter, few mechs can carry enough to actually do anything meaningful with, and with the recent buff to big launcher spread, the trade between small launchers (Tight spread, big hardpoint requirements) and big launchers (A bit sloppy, low hardpoint requirement, can beat AMS) is actually not too bad.

While maybe LRMs do need some fiddling about, I don't think spread is where to start.

[process]

Without completely reworking how LRMs function, I would say if we're happy with the LRM 5/10/15 spread, then the simplest solution is to give LRM 20 the same spread as LRM 15.

[Bombast]

process, on 10 January 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Without completely reworking how LRMs function, I would say if we're happy with the LRM 5/10/15 spread, then the simplest solution is to give LRM 20 the same spread as LRM 15.

Patch Notes - 1.4.88 - 15-NOV-201 said:

LRM/20
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 4.3s (from 5.5s)
• Spread decreased to match LRM/15

Clan LRM/20
• Cooldown Duration decreased to 4.6s (from 6.5s)
• Spread decreased to match Clan LRM/15

https://mwomercs.com...h-notes?id=1664

[Snazzy Dragon]

Bombast, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...h-notes?id=1664

And it's still a terrible weapon! \0/

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 10 January 2017 - 08:58 AM.

[Bombast]

Snazzy Dragon, on 10 January 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

And it's still a terrible weapon! \0/

The LRM20? Yeah... it's undoubtedly the worst LRM system.

I look at the entire LRM line as a single weapon system, and the depreciation of effectiveness per ton as an anti-boating feature. If the LRM20 was as effective per ton as, say, the LRM5, we'd be in a lot of trouble - It's a weapon who's sole purpose is to fill out tonnage and let 70+ ton mechs (IS Side, not sure about Clanners since they have half tonnage LRMs) with low hard point counts carry enough LRMs to do weight appropriate, though sloppy, damage.

[process]

Bombast, on 10 January 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...h-notes?id=1664

Oh that's embarrassing.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

El Bandito, on 10 January 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Light and Meds do have the speed to get into cover. Personally, one silly reason I like LRM20's spread is because it can reliably hit the legs of those pesky Lights, and take them out of commission fast.

The6thMessenger, on 10 January 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I didn't explained it as chance, because it does not solely rely on chance, it literally controls how much missiles hit. By pure chance, you literally have a small amount of chance that a certain part is hit more than they should be, which is not how the suggestion operates. 0.0625% chance may be small for a missile to track the head twice consecutively, but it's supposed to be 0% flat, until the rest has been hit by their designated amount of missiles.

To be fair, this still assumes the standard LRM rules like Lock required, visual required, as well as i have specified that LRMs don't necessarily hit components they just home on it, simple cover and torso twisting can block the incoming LRMs.

Also that's just example values, real values may differ on implementation.

The way things are now, if an LRM-15 or LRM-20 is fired at a light mech.

Maybe half to 75% of missiles will miss. With 25% to 50% of LRM's hitting.

If the percentage of missiles successfully targeting light mechs is increased closer to 100%, they'll be shredded very quickly.

Especially with clan assaults boating LRM-70 builds.

If there were 2-3 LRM boats shooting at the same light mech it would be destroyed in seconds if LRM's were more accurate.

I'm not saying its a bad idea.

But if LRM's targeted components individually, major changes would need to be made.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 10 January 2017 - 04:36 PM.

[RestosIII]

Bombast, on 10 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

LRM spread is actually pretty nice at the moment. While smaller launchers are tighter, few mechs can carry enough to actually do anything meaningful with, and with the recent buff to big launcher spread, the trade between small launchers (Tight spread, big hardpoint requirements) and big launchers (A bit sloppy, low hardpoint requirement, can beat AMS) is actually not too bad.

While maybe LRMs do need some fiddling about, I don't think spread is where to start.

The spread ATM is actually pretty well balanced, I agree. But I still REALLY wish LRMs were fire-and-forget with boosted LoS bonuses for velocity and the arc they use. MW:LL has really spoiled me.

[Pjwned]

Baulven, on 10 January 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I can only imagine your salty tears at streak LRMs.

I wouldn't personally have a problem dealing with streak LRMs because I'm not a scrub, it's just a stupid way of balancing them; I guess you can keep imagining my salty tears about it though since that wouldn't happen.

It just turns LRMs into long range SSRMs, so lights get unfairly pummeled by it (whenever they would be hit by LRMs, which shouldn't be very much, but it's still stupid) while bigger mechs just shrug off the damage spreading out all over the place even more so than they do now. How is that not incredibly stupid?

[Pjwned]

Bombast, on 10 January 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

The LRM20? Yeah... it's undoubtedly the worst LRM system.

I look at the entire LRM line as a single weapon system, and the depreciation of effectiveness per ton as an anti-boating feature. If the LRM20 was as effective per ton as, say, the LRM5, we'd be in a lot of trouble - It's a weapon who's sole purpose is to fill out tonnage and let 70+ ton mechs (IS Side, not sure about Clanners since they have half tonnage LRMs) with low hard point counts carry enough LRMs to do weight appropriate, though sloppy, damage.

It shouldn't be the worst launcher just because it's the biggest, it just makes people not use it at all and that's dumb.

If bigger LRM launchers were more efficient (not getting screwed by increased missile spread on top of all their other drawbacks) and LRMs as a whole were more reliable (not getting screwed by jesus box ECM) then it's a good bet we would see more mixed builds with LRMs included, which sounds pretty good to me.

[The6thMessenger]

Pjwned, on 10 January 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

It just turns LRMs into long range SSRMs, so lights get unfairly pummeled by it (whenever they would be hit by LRMs, which shouldn't be very much, but it's still stupid) while bigger mechs just shrug off the damage spreading out all over the place even more so than they do now. How is that not incredibly stupid?

It's not stupid because it's not just some long-range SSRMs, because lights do have the ability to find a cover and not get lurmed to death, target lock is also required, which is not achieved when they are hidden. Biggest mech shrugs it off, lights as the farthest end of the spectrum runs away from it like it's supposed to.