34 replies to this topic

[Warglbargl]

Jman5, on 13 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

The lack of AMS equipped builds I'm seeing from this community is a travesty. These are builds for new players. They cannot equip Radar deprivation even if they wanted to. LRMs are notoriously frustrating for new players and you guys are depriving them of a critical tool in mitigating that frustration a little.

Double AMS Wolfhound and triple AMS Nova, now is the time to get it done.

[Dee Eight]

Jman5, on 13 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

The lack of AMS equipped builds I'm seeing from this community is a travesty. These are builds for new players. They cannot equip Radar deprivation even if they wanted to. LRMs are notoriously frustrating for new players and you guys are depriving them of a critical tool in mitigating that frustration a little.

two of my kodiak submissions have AMS. One, my KDK-3 variant I call ben... has decent speed for a 3 variant, a high DPS on the LB2Xs alone (9.00 sustained), enough ammo to last ANY player most of a QP match, and a pair of ERLLs as the "backup" weapons. Granted the LB's aren't pinpoint damage... but the spread is minimal and they'll help new players actually to HIT the enemy.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

So rather than give them what might not be so great anymore in a few months, we want to give them what is not good now, and won't be good in the future either? How does giving them bad builds teach them game mechanics any better than giving them good builds?

Is what you said, but here is what I hear

Gas Guzzler, on 13 January 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

So rather than give them builds that teach them how to play

Lets give them builds that require them to already be good to be worth using, AND that we know will become bad!

Let's give them builds that in a month or more (possibly even before the champion mech comes out!) are going to suck, AND not teach them anything!

Not only that, but let's give them builds we know are only going to spam the forum with more:
"How dare you nerf it! It was good for the new players!" threads

Big difference.

Just like your (stupid) interpretation of what I said

AnimeFreak40K, on 13 January 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

And this is another great point. I watch people point and laugh at "those noobs bringing trials" to a match (FW, group or whatever), completely forgetting that many of the Trial/Champion mechs were designed by this very community...based on the meta and what was "good" at that time. Those times have changed and those builds aren't as good as they once were.

That sums a lot of it up very well

Jman5, on 13 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

The lack of AMS equipped builds I'm seeing from this community is a travesty. These are builds for new players. They cannot equip Radar deprivation even if they wanted to. LRMs are notoriously frustrating for new players and you guys are depriving them of a critical tool in mitigating that frustration a little.

But AMS is NOT META!!111!!111111!

Edited by Wence the Wanderer, 13 January 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[Tesunie]

Jman5, on 13 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

The lack of AMS equipped builds I'm seeing from this community is a travesty. These are builds for new players. They cannot equip Radar deprivation even if they wanted to. LRMs are notoriously frustrating for new players and you guys are depriving them of a critical tool in mitigating that frustration a little.

I shall admit, I myself am guilty of this... Though the two mechs I posted builds for (Adder and Nova) are each lighter mechs, so they are harder to squeeze in that AMS. Though, you've convinced me to relook at those said mechs and see if I can get one in on there for the new players.

Thank you for the reminder!

Edited by Tesunie, 13 January 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Carl Vickers, on 13 January 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Giving new players a mech that is clearly OP and inflates their numbers is good for the game how? It teaches them and gets them ready for what?

Whilst a lot of the champion builds arent great anymore, they are still objectively better than their original form which is lore builds, we all know how good lore builds work in this game (sorry Restolll).

In this particular case, I'm not seeing a problem here.

A request for a Kodiak Champion was asked for and while I personally do not care for the Kodiak (I have not been able to get one to work with my playstyle), I acknowledge that it's a good mech just by virtue of its hardpoints. That is a matter of the mech itself and the chassis in particular more than anything else.

I mean, the KDK-3 has 4 Ballistic and 4 Energy hardpoints each and those Ballistic points are high-mounted. By this alone, any build for the KDK is going to have high-mounted Ballistic weapons. And it is those high mounts and the weight/space difference between Clan and IS tech that puts the Kodiaks in the position that they're in.

...and the fact of the matter is that position won't change unless there is a massive shift in gameplay such that high-mounted points are not all that desirable.


The only real way around what you are suggesting would be to not submit a KDK-3 and instead put something together a different variant for consideration as a Champion

[Dee Eight]

You post builds in the champion builds forum. Not here.

[Aramuside]

Carl Vickers, on 13 January 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Giving new players a mech that is clearly OP and inflates their numbers is good for the game how? It teaches them and gets them ready for what?

Whilst a lot of the champion builds arent great anymore, they are still objectively better than their original form which is lore builds, we all know how good lore builds work in this game (sorry Restolll).

Giving a player who pays real money for a mech to give them a good start, particularly one as expensive as a Kodiak with large XL engine (remember champions are cost not weight priced) seems sort of a requirement.

[Aramuside]

Jman5, on 13 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

The lack of AMS equipped builds I'm seeing from this community is a travesty. These are builds for new players. They cannot equip Radar deprivation even if they wanted to. LRMs are notoriously frustrating for new players and you guys are depriving them of a critical tool in mitigating that frustration a little.

Sarcasm I presume?

Plenty of well made posts out there with statistics highlighting problems on the single AMS use, e.g. blind spots and ineffectiveness, that I'm sure you've read and indeed may even have wrote.

Giving new players the idea that a single AMS will in any way help them against LRMs or even streaks is (IMO) a bad idea.

FYI I'm not a AMS hater as I use several dual and even a triple AMS setup for group play or when LRM mechs come out. Its just I presume we want the Champion mechs to help teach people what is good not what items they should first remove from their mechs....

AMS is coincidentally one of the areas that definitely benefits hugely from modules so using the lack of modules as an argument in its favour seems odd. The reason we don't see the AMS modules much is not many of us routinely equip AMS whereas everyone benefits from Radar Deprivation (ECM as an edge case).

[Desintegrator]

I hope I will see some of these builds on the Battlefield.

[Dee Eight]

Aramuside, on 14 January 2017 - 02:11 AM, said:

Sarcasm I presume?

Plenty of well made posts out there with statistics highlighting problems on the single AMS use, e.g. blind spots and ineffectiveness, that I'm sure you've read and indeed may even have wrote.

Giving new players the idea that a single AMS will in any way help them against LRMs or even streaks is (IMO) a bad idea.

FYI I'm not a AMS hater as I use several dual and even a triple AMS setup for group play or when LRM mechs come out. Its just I presume we want the Champion mechs to help teach people what is good not what items they should first remove from their mechs....

AMS is coincidentally one of the areas that definitely benefits hugely from modules so using the lack of modules as an argument in its favour seems odd. The reason we don't see the AMS modules much is not many of us routinely equip AMS whereas everyone benefits from Radar Deprivation (ECM as an edge case).

Again...this all ignores some basic facts...like Tina's instruction that these champions will be mostly used by new players as trial mechs. As trials mechs...the primary users won't have any skill tree unlocks, nor the ability to use consumables or modules (nevermind the fact modules are going away by the time these champions patch into the game) so therefore the majority of players using them cannot just use equip a radar dep module to make up for the lack of an AMS.

And if you just discourage every new player from bothering with AMS at all, then you're doing them a disservice. I see so many players crying for ECM and AMS cover when the missiles start raining, yet they won't actually mount one themselves because they're told that ONE AMS does very little, and never make the connection that if EVERY player had just one...then that'd ruin the day of all the players on the enemy team relying on their LRM missiles to get the damage/kills for them.

How too are new players to determine for themselves if AMS will help their play, or help the team at all...if they aren't any units equipped with them for them to try out. They'd have to BUY a mech just to fit it with AMS to learn how it works/doesn't work for themselves. Of the current 16 champion mechs in trial rotation, ZERO have AMS equipped even though about a dozen of them could do so. About a quarter of my mech design submissions have AMS units, including a couple of my kodiaks. One of my Nova submissions is a triple AMS example (with 6 SPL and a Flamer as well).

Same goes for all the submissions which ignore the lack of knowledge of ghost heat scaling penalties, or the lack of cooling/heat capacity skill tree unlocks of new players. Yes the Nova with the 12 SPL is "meta", but the new player isn't going to understand why they got hit with 76 heat when they alpha strike instead of 36 heat. NONE of the mechs I am submitting have any ghost heat triggering weapon loadouts, even with alpha strikes.

Similarly...all the front loaded armor is fine for experienced players who know to torso twist and aren't likely to get snuck up behind on, and if they are, will quickly realize where the weapons fire is coming from and move/twist/turn to get their back armor away.... but new players...not very likely. Therefore all champion mech submissions having a reasonable amount of rear torso armor should be a requirement to be selected by PGI.

Also as few fire groups as possible should be favoured (most of mine try for 2 or 3, 4 is pushing things), as not everyone will have a 11 button gaming mouse that they can program to handle all their firing group and other keyboard function needs. I've got an average logitech mouse... 5 buttons and the scroll wheel (so 7 effective keyboard buttons covered). I use it for Firing groups 1-4, the second consumable slot position and the zoom in and zoom out.

This kodiak submission of mine I mentioned a few messages above (and can be found in the kodiak champion thread if anyone wants to look it up and vote for it... the variant name is Ben - KDK-3) with the 9.00 DPS on the quad LB-2x's, hits the AMS check box, the lack of ghost heat box, the minimal fire groups box, and the rear torso armor box. Its got no UACs to jam, no gauss to charge, and can fire continously on the LB's alone for 162.5 seconds (quadruple volleys).

Edited by Dee Eight, 15 January 2017 - 12:43 AM.

[Aramuside]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

Again...this all ignores some basic facts...like Tina's instruction that these champions will be mostly used by new players as trial mechs. As trials mechs...the primary users won't have any skill tree unlocks, nor the ability to use consumables or modules (nevermind the fact modules are going away by the time these champions patch into the game) so therefore the majority of players using them cannot just use equip a radar dep module to make up for the lack of an AMS.

And if you just discourage every new player from bothering with AMS at all, then you're doing them a disservice. I see so many players crying for ECM and AMS cover when the missiles start raining, yet they won't actually mount one themselves because they're told that ONE AMS does very little, and never make the connection that if EVERY player had just one...then that'd ruin the day of all the players on the enemy team relying on their LRM missiles to get the damage/kills for them.

How too are new players to determine for themselves if AMS will help their play, or help the team at all...if they aren't any units equipped with them for them to try out. They'd have to BUY a mech just to fit it with AMS to learn how it works/doesn't work for themselves. Of the current 16 champion mechs in trial rotation, ZERO have AMS equipped even though about a dozen of them could do so. About a quarter of my mech design submissions have AMS units, including a couple of my kodiaks. One of my Nova submissions is a triple AMS example (with 6 SPL and a Flamer as well).

Same goes for all the submissions which ignore the lack of knowledge of ghost heat scaling penalties, or the lack of cooling/heat capacity skill tree unlocks of new players. Yes the Nova with the 12 SPL is "meta", but the new player isn't going to understand why they got hit with 76 heat when they alpha strike instead of 36 heat. NONE of the mechs I am submitting have any ghost heat triggering weapon loadouts, even with alpha strikes.

Similarly...all the front loaded armor is fine for experienced players who know to torso twist and aren't likely to get snuck up behind on, and if they are, will quickly realize where the weapons fire is coming from and move/twist/turn to get their back armor away.... but new players...not very likely. Therefore all champion mech submissions having a reasonable amount of rear torso armor should be a requirement to be selected by PGI.

Also as few fire groups as possible should be favoured (most of mine try for 2 or 3, 4 is pushing things), as not everyone will have a 11 button gaming mouse that they can program to handle all their firing group and other keyboard function needs. I've got an average logitech mouse... 5 buttons and the scroll wheel (so 7 effective keyboard buttons covered). I use it for Firing groups 1-4, the second consumable slot position and the zoom in and zoom out.

This kodiak submission of mine I mentioned a few messages above (and can be found in the kodiak champion thread if anyone wants to look it up and vote for it... the variant name is Ben - KDK-3) with the 9.00 DPS on the quad LB-2x's, hits the AMS check box, the lack of ghost heat box, the minimal fire groups box, and the rear torso armor box. Its got no UACs to jam, no gauss to charge, and can fire continously on the LB's alone for 162.5 seconds (quadruple volleys).

So to clarify you really are designing a mech you know no player with any knowledge of the game would buy?

The idea is to provide the buyer with something worthwhile not something which will get them mocked in game or treated as if they're useless to the team.

You do put a good argument in that if everyone carried AMS it would help. Well that will never happen outside a 12 man and they're all running radar dep as they're not new players. Your argument also ignores the fact that if someone uses AMS it neatly shows everyone exactly where they are. No new player will even think to turn it off or if they figure that out remember to turn it on again in the thick of combat. By the time they do... they'll have dumped the AMS after match after match of getting pounded on not understanding why the AMS isn't protecting them.

Coincidentally, there is no AMS checkbox its a "quality" you're trying to impose on the thread to support your own builds. The rest of the arguments for the Kodiak make sense but it will last seconds if it tries to face tank for that long.

On the other hand my heart shudders at the concept of how expensive a clan Kodiak champion will be and it doesn't even give +C-Bills so perhaps I'm just horrified by the whole concept. It almost makes Gold mechs worthwhile with all the extras that came with them.

[Dee Eight]

Aramuside, on 15 January 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

So to clarify you really are designing a mech you know no player with any knowledge of the game would buy?

That was a problem during the last round of champions... everyone tried to maximize the cbill item contents of MC only mechs, by fitting the largest rated XL engines to everything, even things that had no business with them installed due to their hitboxes, including every one of the inner sphere mechs. Anyone with actual knowledge won't be buying them for whatever loadouts the variant gets anyway. They'll be buying them for the 30% XP bonus and then applying their own builds to them. Or they'll be part of a mech mastery bundle deal. Or they'll be given away as event prizes (that's how I got four of my clan champions, during two of the three FW events that happened between Phase 3 and Phase 4.1).

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The idea is to provide the buyer with something worthwhile not something which will get them mocked in game or treated as if they're useless to the team.

AMS is not useless to the team. A mech that doesn't overheat and shutdown due to ghost penalties is not useless to the team. Better still a mech that is so heat efficient as to be virtually impossible to shutdown will be very good for the team and the player using it. One of my Nova submissions has a pair of UAC/2s, a pair of MGs, and 108% heat efficiency. An inner sphere mech with a decent speed rating of standard engine, and still has a heat efficient weapons build and the ability due to CT or Head hardpoints to be an angry zombie will not be useless to the team (my only wolfhound submission so far has a 225 standard, 2 MPL in the CT, 3 SL, 2 AMS, 12DHS).

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You do put a good argument in that if everyone carried AMS it would help. Well that will never happen outside a 12 man and they're all running radar dep as they're not new players. Your argument also ignores the fact that if someone uses AMS it neatly shows everyone exactly where they are. No new player will even think to turn it off or if they figure that out remember to turn it on again in the thick of combat. By the time they do... they'll have dumped the AMS after match after match of getting pounded on not understanding why the AMS isn't protecting them.

See above...most users of champions are using them as the free trials. They thus CANNOT dump anything, fit radar dep modules (in fact the module will be gone by the time the new champions patch into the game), or unlock skill tree bonuses. Learning to turn the things off under roofs, in tunnels, and when sneaking around is just another skill to learn...same as using the R key. I see lots of multi-year T1 veterans who still haven't learned either.

Quote

On the other hand my heart shudders at the concept of how expensive a clan Kodiak champion will be and it doesn't even give +C-Bills so perhaps I'm just horrified by the whole concept. It almost makes Gold mechs worthwhile with all the extras that came with them.

It will be less MC price than the Spirit Bear. Depending on the chosen one and its engine/weapons load it might even be cheaper than a stock variant (a KDK-3 with UAC5/UAC10 and a 375XL is going to be cheaper than the stock 400XL with dual LB-20Xs for example).

[Tina Benoit]

Note: You cannot use Heroes for these Champion Builds.
Exclusive 2016 Loyalty Mechs and Omnipods are are okay however.

[Dee Eight]

Tina Benoit, on 16 January 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Note: You cannot use Heroes for these Champion Builds.
Exclusive 2016 Loyalty Mechs and Omnipods are are okay however.

Doesn't that make the the 2016 loyalty mechs slightly less exclusive (well by 2 or 3 months anyway, between the patch the champions are released in and July when their basic variants go onto the webstore for cash purchase) ?

[Tier5 Kerensky]

That Kodiak-3 if it gets selected, and why the heck not, will be great for newcomers.

When I started playing there was KGC-000B as trial and it was such an insane killer with it's 4xAC5. The only reason I didn't play so often with it, was it took quite a lot longer to get into a game, and also it was slow to play. At some point the trials changed and I don't remember any other trial really being so awesome.

Did I learn anything about the game with King Crab, absolute not, but I made much more cbills with it than any other mech.

I think Kodiak wasn't around back then and even so, that King Crab would still be pretty awesome in tier 5-4.