160 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

Lykaon, on 14 January 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

There were very few (nearly none to no one) I.S. players requesting a nerf on clan XLs.

What this is like is as if Someone asked for better track shoes to compete in a race with players who already have the best shoes and instead the Ref takes a tire iron to the other guy's ankles.

Nobody wanted that!

Wrong...Tonya Harding totally wanted that. She's an avid MWO player and currently dating Russ.

[Willard Phule]

Lily from animove, on 14 January 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

So thats the attemp for better balance?

this is such a bad idea, will this mean also buffs for those already inferior too hot running clanmechs, or will this "balance" attemp just try to make clanners bring only the ballistic cheese builds even more?

think about it, which mechs get really hurt by these changes?

those with easily shot off ST's not something like the bear.
those with energies as main, not the bear.

If this this "nerf" or better said change does come with buffs, or other changes soem chassis will be penalsied like 3x as mucha s the current metacheese. which probably just gets that penalty at a multiplier of 1x. This does not help balane at all, all it does is imbalance the clanmechs amongst each other even more mostlikely forcing more clanners to go full cheese. Which then may hurt balance even more at the clan vs IS border in FW.

I doubt this is in any way turning out to do the balancing effect PGI thinks it does.

I bet it has EXACTLY the desired "balancing" effect they're trying for. It isn't about balancing XL engines, it's about driving experienced players to the IS because they want to avoid the penalty. Potat..er..New Players don't read the forums or the patch notes. They could care less.

[Sjorpha]

It seems like a completely insignificant change.

It is the difference between survival and death on ST destruction that is the balance issue. If you want to balance the engines that difference is what needs to be addressed.

You can either make clan XL die on ST loss or you can make IS XL survive a ST loss, doesn't matter.

Increasing or reducing the penalties can't be the solution to balancing clan and IS XL because it's literally impossible to design a penalty that matches death, death will always be the worse penalty no matter what you do.

You could give the IS XL some other kind of advantage that is equally good I guess, such as very significant agility bonuses or going faster than clan for the tonnage etc. But that seems a bit difficult to design.

The easiest and IMO best way to make the engines balanced is to make IS XL survive a ST loss like the clan XL, but with a smaller penalty to compensate for the extra crit slot cost.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 January 2017 - 05:57 AM.

[El Bandito]

Sjorpha, on 15 January 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

The easiest and IMO best way to make the engines balanced is to make IS XL survive a ST loss like the clan XL, but with a smaller penalty to compensate for the extra crit slot cost.

PGI can get rid of tons of IS quirk band-aids by doing this one simple change.

[Aiden Skye]

Sjorpha, on 15 January 2017 - 05:55 AM, said:

The easiest and IMO best way to make the engines balanced is to make IS XL survive a ST loss like the clan XL, but with a smaller penalty to compensate for the extra crit slot cost.

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

[C E Dwyer]

Much of the game balance starts with the mechs.

When you have a mech designer consistently placing the hard points on clan mechs higher than they have ever been before on the designs, your going to get hit with nerfs like this, as they desperately try to claw back some of the miss match caused by the designs.

Edited by Cathy, 15 January 2017 - 07:45 AM.

[El Bandito]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

Explain why it is dumb?

Lore aside.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 January 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Alan Davion]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

The only way IS XL would be better than Clan XL would be if they made it survive ST loss, AND reduced the ST crits to two instead of three.

Even if they made the IS XL survive an ST loss, the Clan XL would STILL be better because it's only 2 slots per torso instead of 3 like the IS.

[Sjorpha]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

It wouldn't be better, it would be equally good. The clan XL would have the advantage of being slightly smaller, the IS would have the advantage of slightly smaller heat penalty on ST loss. I'm talking about a small difference here, only a few percent to balance the larger size.

How would you do it? What would you give the IS XL to match the Clan XL crit slot advantage?

I'm all ears here.

[Koniving]

Snazzy Dragon, on 14 January 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Except IS players asked to have their engines buffed.

Power Creep is already Horrendous!

Dee Eight, on 14 January 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

And this is truer to the lore as well.... two engine crits was supposed to increase heat also.

Indeed.

Koniving, on 14 January 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

Edit: Cleaned up "android autocorrect" nonsense..

On those whining about that engine nerf...
A single crit to the engine in BT would pump 0.5 heat into you per second constantly and ruin 16.67% of your max engine heat threshold on top of it.
A double crit (Clan ST loss) would pump 1 heat per second non-stop and ruin 33.33% of your maximum engine heat threshold.

This is on top of all heatsinks lost in the process of losing that side torso.

You are not getting the constant pump of heat so a 40% loss of cooling/threshold isn't bad.
Particularly since the average Clan cooling rate is 3.2 per second. Minus 40%... 1.92 per second but you can stop heat generation by not shooting (as opposed to constant 1 heat per second reducing you to 2.2 per second but never ever stopping on top of the heat you generate while shooting...) kind of glass half full half empty here.

Also until we all experience melting heatsinks and constant heat from engine crits I don't want to read any more tears from Either Side.

What we genuinely could use is engine crits getting enabled again and actually affecting the 'Mech for Both Sides.

[Tarl Cabot]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

I would say they were looking at it from a percentage POV and ignoring any attempts to translate the TT penalty rules for a FPS environment but that would not match up, so I can not say exactly.

Base TT game before the introducing of Star League/Clan tech

STD - 6 engine slots and 50% of the slots destroyed (3 slots), mech is out of the game. RPG brings in cost to repair, rolls for complete or partial repairs, etc.

• isXL 12 engine slots/50% wtg savings. 6 CT & 3 in each side torso. One ST gone, taking 25% of the engine shielding.
  
• cXL 10 engine slots/50% wtg savings. 6 CT & 2 in each side torso. One ST gone, taking 20% of the engine shielding.
  
• LFE 10 engine slots/25% wtg savings. 6 CT & 2 in each side torso. One ST gone, taking 20% of the engine shielding.

Those are the numbers I come up with.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 January 2017 - 11:28 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

El Bandito, on 15 January 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

PGI can get rid of tons of IS quirk band-aids by doing this one simple change.

and like "that" they'll ignore it and keep nerfing Clams.

[SavageConvoy]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

As someone pointed out earlier, balance 1 to 1.
Clan XL engines are the main issue because they allow for much more survivable builds compared to the ISXL equivalent.
But aside from the XL, clans get more tech that takes advantage of that engine.
Smaller DHS, Smaller/lighter weapons, and longer ranges that favor faster running mechs.

Forget Lore, because that is a salty road that only leads to a salt mine. This is a game and needs to be balanced as such.
Imagine if you tried doing something lore based with a FPS like Counter Strike. First you limit the the weapon options available to Terrorists and Couter-Terrorist factions, then you give the Counter-Terrorists unlimited starting funds and access to air strikes and drones to represent their much better technology and government funding.
Do you think a game like this sounds fun to play for a large audience?

[Alan Davion]

SavageConvoy, on 15 January 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

Forget Lore, because that is a salty road that only leads to a salt mine. This is a game and needs to be balanced as such.
Imagine if you tried doing something lore based with a FPS like Counter Strike. First you limit the the weapon options available to Terrorists and Couter-Terrorist factions, then you give the Counter-Terrorists unlimited starting funds and access to air strikes and drones to represent their much better technology and government funding.
Do you think a game like this sounds fun to play for a large audience?

You never know. I'm certain there are people somewhere on the net that would relish the challenge of such a system.

[Gas Guzzler]

W A R K H A N, on 15 January 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

So basically make IS XL better than the CXL. Now this is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard on he forums to date. Right up there with adding auto aim.

Better? How is it better? Can IS mechs take 3 UAC5s in a side torso with an XL? Hmm no. How about 2 UAC5s? Hmm no. How about an AC20? Hmm no. How about two AC/UAC10s? Hmm no. Yeah, IS XL SO MUCH BETTER than Clan XL

[Mcgral18]

Koniving, on 15 January 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

Power Creep is already Horrendous!

In this particular case, the Power Creep will increase TTK as a whole, which is an improvement

Clam mechs are already at the pinnacle of firepower, and more IS mechs with XLs won't increase that
But, IS mechs not dying on ST loss means just that, they'll survive longer.


Quirk bandaids can start removal, but weapons will still need some adjustements

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

In this particular case, the Power Creep will increase TTK as a whole, which is an improvement

Clam mechs are already at the pinnacle of firepower, and more IS mechs with XLs won't increase that
But, IS mechs not dying on ST loss means just that, they'll survive longer.


Quirk bandaids can start removal, but weapons will still need some adjustements

It obsoletes STD engines, and requires that even more people use excessive amounts of weapons and heatsinks in order to compete. In the end, light mechs will actually suffer when the assaults run nothing but XL engines.

Engine Crits so that you could die without losing any STs would do considerably better. A simple 20, 30, 40 system could do it.

Clan XL, 20. 5 to 6.67 HP per crit slot. Make it so that a successful crit stops on the crit slot it rolled so that damage doesn't carry over. If it loses 20 HP, it dies. One ST loses 10 to 13.33 health.

IS XL, 30. 10 health per slot. Obviously still die from one ST lost, but a lot harder to kill without destroying the ST.

STD: 40. 10 health per slot. Technically requires 4 destroyed crit slots but the tankability can't be beat.

Engine heat punishments for all.

And no, given the nature of machine guns I am not worried about the "6 machine gun spider" scenario.
After all, if the "crits don't transfer over" tidbit is obeyed, and the engine has a separate health per slot, then even if the 'Mech culminates them into one overall pool of health or if you literally have to destroy 3 to 4 slots, you still have an engine that isn't easy to destroy via MGs... though MGs would seriously help as would LBX.

Edited by Koniving, 18 January 2017 - 10:48 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

If this change is here to stay it should be 30%, just saying. 40% seriously seems like an arbitrary decision.
This is pretty cheesy tbh if it's a set up to make deathless ISXLs.
Also, how hard is it to stay on topic.

Edited by JackalBeast, 15 January 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 15 January 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Engine Crits so that you could die without losing any STs would do considerably better. A simple 20, 30, 40 system could do it.

No it wouldn't, it would be incredibly frustrating. It would also be opaque to new players, who would be wonder why they are dead when they've still got all their pieces.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Koniving, on 15 January 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

It obsoletes STD engines, and requires that even more people use excessive amounts of weapons and heatsinks in order to compete. In the end, light mechs will actually suffer when the assaults run nothing but XL engines.

Engine Crits so that you could die without losing any STs would do considerably better. A simple 20, 30, 40 system could do it.

Clan XL, 20. 5 to 6.67 HP per crit slot. Make it so that a successful crit stops on the crit slot it rolled so that damage doesn't carry over. If it loses 20 HP, it dies. One ST loses 10 to 13.33 health.

IS XL, 30. 10 health per slot. Obviously still die from one ST slot, but a lot harder to kill without destroying the ST.

STD: 40. 10 health per slot. Technically requires 4 destroyed crit slots but the tankability can't be beat.

Engine heat punishments for all.

And no, given the nature of machine guns I am not worried about the "6 machine gun spider" scenario.
After all, if the "crits don't transfer over" tidbit is obeyed, and the engine has a separate health per slot, then even if the 'Mech culminates them into one overall pool of health or if you literally have to destroy 3 to 4 slots, you still have an engine that isn't easy to destroy via MGs... though MGs would seriously help as would LBX.

STD engine is already functionally obsolete on most competitve IS mechs because XL is required to fit anywhere near clan level of firepower at this point.