39 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

There is a way to make all the engines balanced one with another.

Start with the cXL. It is the new standard. It does nothing positive nor anything negative, aside from the inherent advantages of crit and weight savings.

Compare to the IS XL. It takes up 2 extra crits but is otherwise identical to the cXL.

The LFE then adds internal structure health to the torso sections, boosting durability at the cost of weight. It could be flat, it could be a % of base IS, or it could be based on engine rating.

Finally, the STD adds a significant boost to internal structure for all torso sections.

You trade speed and/or payload for survival still, but in the opposite direction from how it is currently.

[Y E O N N E]

And how do you propose to offset the 2 slot disadvantage on the isXL, a disadvantage which has some profound impacts on 'Mech arrangement and denies otherwise good chassis a chance to really shine?

[Bud Crue]

My engine balance solution: give every IS mech somewhere between ~3-12 extra ST armor and just be done. Leave current IS std and XL performance alone. Extra armor is sold to the community under the auspices of reflecting the extra durability and toughness of the IS std, and to provide an XL with the ability to take a bit more damage before being popped. Actual values are based on hit boxes (bad boxes get more good boxes get less...I'd guess around 5 on the average, maybe a bit more). If an offset is deemed necessary, take away equivalent structure bonuses where applicable or more preferably give clans a bit more agility (5% torso twist) to reflect their "superior" tech.

For those thinking this is crazy, go play a Victor. The extra torso armor that it was recently given has made a world of difference in its performance. Not OP by a hell of a long way, but now playable. Still not balanced relative to a clan mech but getting closer to the same ball park. Give it a bit more ST armor and it gets even closer. Do that across the board, and then do what ever the hell you want with the engines themselves.

[cazidin]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 January 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

And how do you propose to offset the 2 slot disadvantage on the isXL, a disadvantage which has some profound impacts on 'Mech arrangement and denies otherwise good chassis a chance to really shine?

That's a more difficult answer but I did acknowledge that the LFE had use for some niche builds but no matter what happens the standard engine will be obsoleted if nothing is done for it, and either LFEs are introduced or IS XL can survive ST loss.

[Y E O N N E]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's a more difficult answer but I did acknowledge that the LFE had use for some niche builds but no matter what happens the standard engine will be obsoleted if nothing is done for it, and either LFEs are introduced or IS XL can survive ST loss.

My comment was directed toward Levi, not so much you. I fully recognize the danger posed to obsoleting the STD engine with buffed LFEs and isXLs.

[Hit the Deck]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's a more difficult answer but I did acknowledge that the LFE had use for some niche builds but no matter what happens the standard engine will be obsoleted if nothing is done for it, and either LFEs are introduced or IS XL can survive ST loss.

STD and LFE are indeed meant for "niche" builds. One should take XL if he/she can because of the speed and firepower it gives if critslots is not a limiting factor, which is a real thing on the IS side (remember that aside of having smaller and lighter equipments, Clan also has 7 slots Endo and Ferro).

Ask PGI to bring us Heavy Gauss Rifles and make future LB 20-X not suck because you need to take STD if you want to use those weapons. That will make STD more important and relevant (in real terms, not just because of fluff or if someone likes taking it).

Edited by Hit the Deck, 14 January 2017 - 07:15 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

cazidin, on 14 January 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

That's a more difficult answer but I did acknowledge that the LFE had use for some niche builds but no matter what happens the standard engine will be obsoleted if nothing is done for it, and either LFEs are introduced or IS XL can survive ST loss.

New players purchasing mechs for the first time has STD, some mechs have low engine caps and are energy builds would not benefit from isXL, maybe LFE but the plus side of the STD, especially for energy builds, is NOT being hit with a heat/movement penalty. T-bolts, Battlemasters though approx 14 KPH max speed difference can make that choice difficult.

A durable isXL benefits the lower tiered mechs more than anything cause it would allow them to bring better loads without dying with one side torso loss.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 January 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

A durable isXL benefits the lower tiered mechs more than anything cause it would allow them to bring better loads without dying with one side torso loss.

Noooooo, durable XL makes even the higher tier 'Mechs better, dramatically so.

Even those tonnage efficient energy boats that can do reasonably well on a STD are better with an XL. Instead of running 75 kph with 3xLL+5xML and 18 DHS, I can run at 81.3 kph with 3xLPL+5xML and 19 DHS or I can run around with 5x LL/ERLL and the same number of DHS, both of which are far more competitive with the Clan loadouts.

When ERML and LFEs come out, though, LFEs might make XL somewhat redundant on energy boats, but that depends on how they tweak the heat on existing MedLas to stack up against the ERs.

[Tarl Cabot]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 January 2017 - 07:33 PM, said:

Noooooo, durable XL makes even the higher tier 'Mechs better, dramatically so.

Even those tonnage efficient energy boats that can do reasonably well on a STD are better with an XL. Instead of running 75 kph with 3xLL+5xML and 18 DHS, I can run at 81.3 kph with 3xLPL+5xML and 19 DHS or I can run around with 5x LL/ERLL and the same number of DHS, both of which are far more competitive with the Clan loadouts.

When ERML and LFEs come out, though, LFEs might make XL somewhat redundant on energy boats, but that depends on how they tweak the heat on existing MedLas to stack up against the ERs.

Exactly how so? Seriously, especially considering the release of Clan BATTLEMECH?

When a merc unit moves to the IS, they can use them quite effectively but then generally most of the competitive mercs tend to switch sides all at one time. So you want to keep that weak link, so when using Clan tech there your opponent is moving MUCH slower than your mechs, or there is no need to drill through CT or two torsos like IS pilots need to do? And with Clan mech, the ability to use that destroyed torso as a temp shield to cut down the incoming damage to last a tad longer while your team mechs fire back unhindered.

They are energy builds with the differences in speed. Competitive IS units will use the isXL for the speed, but against a competitive Clan unit, how exactly so? All but a few certainly will not start adding ballistics to said builds cause they are not setup for them, with many working with the current quirks (with most being moved to the new Skill tree) currently provided but that does not save them from a COMPETITIVE Clan unit's focus fire.

On the other hand, majority of the population are not near as competitive, nor in competitive units. And the regular population certainly not in sync with each other, taking mechs that complement each other while focus firing. That is one of the difference between the general population and competitive units.

Of course, the fallacy is that PGI is using a remnant of a TT rule that does not use the rest of the rules/scenarios, nor does MWO rely on dice to determine hit/miss or location. And the rule itself was created when it was only STD engines, which 3 crits were half of the 6 engine slot. Since TT was a board game that did not have focus fire, there was no real reason to change that rule since the other engines allowed for more opportunity for engine crits, 6 slots vs 10/12 slots.

But PGI certainly is showing they would rather put heavier penalties on cXL than to use the penalty setup that they finally constructed for the cXL. For the newer folks, when Clans were introduced, there were NO penalties with the loss of one side torso, though they were out with both side torso gone but even then IS still had the fragile isXL engine.



https://mwomercs.com...tober-road-map/

Quote

Destruction of a Clan Side Torso

Although we hope to eventually put in a full engine critical hit system that would affect both IS and Clan 'Mechs, we are going to start out with a change to place some penalty on a Clan 'Mech that loses a side torso. Essentially, there needs to be some penalty for losing 2 critical engine slots. Using the tabletop game as a guideline, we have decided to not make movement a part of the penalty but to save that for some future implementation on the effects of heat on your 'Mechs functionality. A Clan engine has a total of 10 critical engine slots and the destruction of a Side Torso in a clan ‘Mech means the loss of two of those slots, or 20%. With this in mind, we have decided to implement a rule that the destruction of a side torso in a Clan 'Mech will result in a loss of 20% of the engines internal heat sink capacity. By way of example, a Timber Wolf with 15 internal engine heat sinks will lose the cooling equivalent of 3 of those heat sinks. A small penalty, but we feel that heat sink loss along with the loss of everything in that torso and arm will be enough.

One of many threads from back then (Sept 2014)
https://mwomercs.com...snt-make-sense/

Thread started by Gyrok to petition stop nerfing Clans (March 2015)
https://mwomercs.com...n-st-loss-nerf/

Lily from animove (March 2015)
https://mwomercs.com...n-xl-nerf-idea/

Dec 2015 patch - PGI added the 20% movement penalty to the Clan XL, as well as the neutering of the Skill Tree.
https://mwomercs.com...38-01-dec-2015/

Now those two penalty lines setup should have provided PGI a foundation to bring the isXL, cXL and a potential future release of the LFE onto level terms with differentiating penalties with the loss of one side torso, especially since it does not appear they are going to bring in actual engine crits when they originally added the cXL heat penalty. PGI did not even bring up the eventuality of engine crits when they added the 20% movement penalty.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 January 2017 - 09:15 PM, said:

Exactly how so? Seriously, especially considering the release of Clan BATTLEMECH?

"How so exactly" regarding better isXLs making high tier IS 'Mechs better, or "how so exactly" regarding LFE making XL less necessary for energy boats?

[Tarl Cabot]

Yeonne Greene, on 14 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

"How so exactly" regarding better isXLs making high tier IS 'Mechs better, or "how so exactly" regarding LFE making XL less necessary for energy boats?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 January 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[FireStoat]

My thoughts on this are simple.
If I am a Clan pilot, I have a choice of standard engine to fit odd weapon loads into a frame (2 Gauss Rifles on a MAD IIC A) with no penalty, or a C XL engine which now gives me an increased heat percentage if I blow a torso on top of the movement penalty. Yes, I'm still alive, but a lot of luck will be involved with my doing something useful before the last of my mech is gunned down.

If I pilot an Omnimech, I have no choice. And my Omnimechs have shallow assisting quirks to reflect this.

If I am an Inner Sphere pilot, my mechs have baseline quirks to assist and few people are going to claim that there are NOT some really good choices due to the quirks. Baseline quirks, according to what have been told, WILL be rolled into the base stats of mechs for 'free' when the new skill trees hit.

As an Inner Sphere pilot I can toss in a standard engine, or an XL which means I'm dead if I blow out a side torso as opposed to crippling heat and movement. But with a Light Fusion engine, I have a marked improvement over the XL engine WITHOUT a disclosed heat / movement penalty that will match the Clans (probably). And my quirks... look like they get to stay.

I can load up a Marauder 3R with a Light Fusion engine and keep its structure / PPC quirks? Sign me up. The playing ground is about to become a LOT more even for Inner Sphere pilots.

Edited by FireStoat, 14 January 2017 - 11:23 PM.

[ArchSight]

Opinion:
The IS and Clan XL engines should be mechanically the same if the difference of when they can die is not balanced. If the amount of firepower and range of mechs of the same tonnage could bring with those engines is not giving the IS a fair fight with the clans then the XL engine should die the same way as the clans XL engine. If there's a big difference in skill levels having a easier time using clan mechs with C-XL engines over using IS mechs with XL engines then they should die mechanically the same.

[Widowmaker1981]

Some mechs, most notably the Maulers and the Cyclops-Sleipnir, want the LFE more than they want buffed IS-XLs, because you can fit 2xUAC5 in the ST with the LFE. It would make a BIG difference to IS dakka mechs.

[cazidin]

Alright. So let's introduce LFE. I'm not opposed to that if something is done about the Standard Engine and IS XL engine otherwise we basically get an inferior C-XL and regardless of what happens the Standard Engine will be obsolete.

[Tarl Cabot]

cazidin, on 15 January 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Alright. So let's introduce LFE. I'm not opposed to that if something is done about the Standard Engine and IS XL engine otherwise we basically get an inferior C-XL and regardless of what happens the Standard Engine will be obsolete.

How is that a bad thing? There will some mechs that will use the STD so they are NOT hit with a heat/movement penalty or due to low engine cap that neither isXL/LFE is even worth it. For most going to a isXL or LFE will primarily be the Need for Speed for those mechs that are primarily energy or missile boats. For many IS mechs though, they are jack of trades, master of none and with bad hit boxes that even structural quirks can not remedy. The ability to run at a decent speed to keep up with your lance mates and equip more than one decent component has the possibility of making them a more decent mech, though not close to the meta line.

Are there mechs that I would still run a STD in? And they would fall in the areas previously noted. And new players w/their first stock IS mech will have STD, but like everything else they have the choice of upgrading and how to upgrade it.

My question though, what mechs do you plan to continue running with STD instead of using isXL or LFE, and why?

[Hit the Deck]

Tarl Cabot, on 15 January 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

...
My question though, what mechs do you plan to continue running with STD instead of using isXL or LFE, and why?

On top of my head: Brawler Atlas and future Heavy Gauss Fafnir.

Taking STD because they have to.

[MechaBattler]

Even if they introduce the LFE. It's still weighs more than a Clan engine. So while it'll be superior to a standard in some regards. It'll still be straight up inferior to a Clan XL.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarl Cabot, on 14 January 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Come on, not able to do both?

I can, but I wanted to know what part you are asking about. You kind of went on a tear there, over-complicating the simple, and I'm not entirely sure what you were on about when you dove into what competitive players do or don't.

So, I'm going to just explain it using my experience with the game, and my short tenure playing with people who ran Div A MRBC.

Higher tier 'Mechs like the Battlemaster, Warhammer, Grasshopper, and even the Black Knight are superior with XLs already, and it's not just because of the speed. It's also because it means you can bring bigger lasers, which means longer range and/or more damage, and still have cooling to support them. Being able to dish out the pain is a kind of defense all on its own, especially when it has short duration; trying to slip a shot in while these 'Mechs are exposed and firing at you is going to really hurt.

This leads directly into why those 52 damage 3xLL + 5xML IS laser builds are not anywhere near as good as their 54 damage 2xLPL+4xERML Clan counterparts (and no, those extra 2 points of damage don't really mean anything). The range optimum on the IS version is 297-324 meters, set by the Medium lasers. This is the domain of brawl. The burn duration is far and away too long at 1 second, set by the Large lasers, to be able to safely run an XL at that range. However, even the STD engine builds are going to eat an inordinate amount of damage to the CT, so XL vs. STD is essentially a wash here; the XL will actually spread the damage better while in motion but is vulnerable to a check while firing while the STD is less capable of spreading the damage during movement but doesn't have to worry about a side check during firing. If we bump to XL, though, we can upgrade our Large lasers to Large Pulse lasers, and that's transformative. Now we're dealing more damage over a smaller period of time, and anybody trying to slip a shot in is going to be sent reeling and the XL laser boat is going to return to safety.

Basically, it's the old exposure equation. The speed and better weapons enabled by the XL change the balance such that more damage is output for the expected amount of damage taken in. If we improve the durability of the XL, these high-tier 'Mechs do not lose these benefits, but they can run around with them for longer with less effort. We already saw the exaggerated result of what buffed durability can do back in January 2016. I'm not against buffing isXL durability, you know this, but don't for a second think that it won't improve the viability of the high-end 'Mechs just as much as it does the lower end ones.

How do LFEs obviate the need for XLs on laser boats, though? Well, I can already run at ~75 kph using a 300 STD on the Grasshopper with the 3xLL + 5xML builds and 18-19 DHS. While it's not ideal as I mentioned above, it's also not horrible. With new tech, I upgrade it to 3xLL + 5xERML and then upgrade my engine to a 325 LFE. I actually save two tons over the 300 STD by switching to the lighter, but more powerful, 325 LFE (25 tons vs. 23 tons in MWO, 74.6 kph vs. 80.9 kph). I don't even have the slots to use that extra tonnage (I only had one remaining before), so I can actually go up to a 335 LFE (83.3 kph). What does all this mean? It means I am running in the Clan speed bracket with Clan-like durability, Clan-like damage capabilities, and Clan-like reach. Win, win, win. Assuming PGI doesn't derp and make isERML more than 4 heat and have a duration longer than 0.9 seconds (the standard ML needs to be 0.82 and no hotter than 3.5 and yes, I know, big ifthere), I don't strictly need the XL to be competitive anymore since I can run a bread-and-butter build on it that is every bit as potent as the Clan alternative. I only really need the XL for lasers if I'm going to optimize for something extreme, like 5x ERLL or 4-5x LPL.

(BTW, I can also use the 300 LFE to cram in 3x LPL + 5xML at the same speed the STD build was doing with regular LLs...another significant upgrade).

[W31rdWarrior]

We need LFE, as other ppl said before, it can fit in Atlases where it can help to save some weight, that can be used to increase the engine ratio (for example putting a LFE 325 in place of the STD 300) while fitting anyway an AC/20.
Now for example, the AS7-D-DC; if enemies blow out your STs with FLE, and you get destroyed it's not a tragedy, because with a STD, even if you stay alive without the STs, it miss the CT energy hardpoints, and it can't be used like a zombie (ok, you can use it like a damage sponge, but for me it's still useless).
IMO it can be useful for a lot of assault 'mechs and for some heavies.
So, as i said on another thread

Quote

if you want to gain 25% of the total weight for the weapons and equipment without the risk to see your 'mech disabled by a torso blow (but with penalities like the Clan XL), you can choose LFE, but, if you want to gain the 50% of weight you can put the XL Engine, conscentious that greater advantages means a higher risks.

So, for me it's no to XL buff and yes to LFE

Edited by W31rdWarrior, 15 January 2017 - 12:47 PM.