65 replies to this topic

[Hayden]

Technoviking, on 20 December 2011 - 05:30 PM, said:

I feel you here, but I'd also like MWO to be a quadruple A title and for PGI to make elebentiy bizillion dollars, to give me a high quality experience. Exactly how many cosmetic changes do you think you and I are going to buy?

Well, you should be able to buy anything in real or in-game money. Access to core things (weapons, vast majority of 'mechs) should be universal. What I mean is that everything should be accessible to all players (I.E. nothing exclusively for real money) but everything that you can purchase with in-game money should be buy-able with real money as well.

If Piranha wants to sell things exclusively for real money, it should be stuff that won't impact game play, hence cosmetic. Did I clear that up ok?

[CeeKay Boques]

Ah exclusivity is bad! Yep, same page now.

[Hayden]

Technoviking, on 20 December 2011 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ah exclusivity is bad! Yep, same page now.

Excellence

[Phatt]

I'm not a welfare bludging bum that lives in the basement of my grandmothers house, but i'm not far from it. I'm an ex-serviceman on a disibilty pension because I have cancer, so I'm time rich and cash poor. I used to be time poor and cash rich but the problem with surving a terminal case of cancer is that it costs a lot of money.

Anyway enough of my sob story, I don't want to make you all cry rivers of blood or anything.
One of the reasons that the earlier versions of Mechwarrior were so popular was because they were a level playing field where skill and ability was was all that counted, good pilots powned and bad pilots sucked. Despite the fact that I was time poor due to working 10-12 hours a day, 6 days a week and spending all my anual leave in the Army Reserve I still found time to play MW with my mates in the NBT league and run team training sesions. However at the time I didn't have a wife or a permanent girlfriend, if I had I would't have had time to play any games let lone play MW. If there is one realy important thing I have learnt from life is that wives/girlfriends and online gaming don't mix.

When I first started playing MW4 online I totaly sucked, but then most people do when they first start. So I spent a lot of time practicing against bots and watching the other pilots after my mech had been destroyed. It wasn't long before I became a good pilot, but like most people I wanted to be a kickarse pilot, so I joined a team in the NBT league where I could learn from the best. Then it wasn't too long before I became the best pilot in my team and one of the best pilots in the NBT league. I set my self a goal, I achieved it and it felt good to be a winner. So the moral of my story is that you can't buy that feeling of success, just like you can't buy love. Sure you can buy sex and for the most part it's good but it's no where near as good as love.

I don't know about anyone else but if I was able to buy uber skills and equipment with real world cash that gave me a game winning adavantage over other players who can't afford to buy them (or as in my case just don't want to buy them because I prefer to win without them) it would feel like a very hollow achievment.

However I guess that everyone marches to the beat of a different drum, so if you guys want to buy your success then go ahead and fill your boots as it will make my success so much sweeter knowing that I kicked your arses without having to buy it.

[CeeKay Boques]

Alright, as long as you don't mind if I beat you even though I only have a level 5 Scout with two perks because I can play 2 hours a night and you have a Level 73 Mechstrosity with every perk because of your time-richness.

I'm sure neither one of those cases will happen (buying power or Pilot level meaning much). I sure would like to know what they're going to sell us though...

[Rhinehart]

Dude, First of all my sincere wishes for a full and speedy recovery. My Wife is in the process of recovery from stage four Breast Cancer that thank the lord and her own incredibleness she has managed to pown, so while I haven't been in your shoes I've had a close look at something similar. Keep the faith and anytime you want lancemate when the game opens I volunteer. If you've beaten cancer kicking the crap out of someone else's mech is nothing.

On a different note can I ask that people please put the tired stereotype of the lazy bum parents basement living welfare mooch to bed? I don't know a single one of these idividuals. I DO know quite a few very good friends who are either out of work or working jobs far below what they are qualified for and have had in the past and in some cases that involves several college degrees. Many of them are living with relatives because they are in the same shape and consolidated bills is the only way to make ends meet. That is not shameful or derogatory, that is life for a whole lot of folks.Some of these friends can afford laptops to play some games on and they will be playing MWO when it comes out. But when they read this and other forums where that stereotype gets thrown around the level of frustration they feel is beyond belief. So please flush it out with the extra coolant.

On a final note man, don't give up hope that online gaming and a girlfriend can mix. I had a girlfriend 14 years ago who was actually the one that got me into online gaming. I was lucky enough to marry her. In addition to surviving Cancer it's probably no surprise that she kicked major tail in our local MECH 4 LANing group driving her Hunchback.

Keep the faith man and salute to you <S>

[feor]

The problem with only offering cosmetic things in game is that while some people will pay for them, many people will not. The fewer things people buy the more you will have to charge for each individual thing. The more you charge, the less people will buy. Loop->Until.

If there's not some kind of game functioning impact (though it should be different functioning, not better functioning) people will just go without.

One thing that occurs to me, if they bring in the classic Battetech mechlab and the customization & refit rules, updating a mech with a new piece of gear can potentially take weeks to complete (depending on the size of the piece in question) and has the potential to cause permanent damage to the mech. (unbalanced gyros, less armour in a given location, etc)

So what Piranha can do is offer stock mechs, and if you want to take the time, you can refit it into whatever you want it to be, but you might be waiting weeks for your refitted mech. (remember, the game is going to be 1day real time = 1day game time) Let the game just assume your techs will always take long enough to get it right, to avoid tracking minute failures of your mech's systems. The Microtransactions could be other variants of the mech. Like you might start with a UM-R60 Urbanmech, and you can take the in-game money to buy the parts and then the time to convert the mech into a UM-R63. Or you could go to the online store and just buy a UM-R63, or "garage time" with a gear manfacturer (assuming we're based on Outreach, probably Blackwell) that can implement the refit in a matter of hours instead of a matter of weeks.

[Phatt]

Technoviking, on 20 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Alright, as long as you don't mind if I beat you even though I only have a level 5 Scout with two perks because I can play 2 hours a night and you have a Level 73 Mechstrosity with every perk because of your time-richness.

I'm sure neither one of those cases will happen (buying power or Pilot level meaning much). I sure would like to know what they're going to sell us though...

D'oh I wanted to be the level 5 Scout in a 20 Ton Flea with one Small Pulse laser and the engine size maxed out so I'm doing 200mph across the map. They are so phreakin annoying but I love piloting them.

I am also sitting on the edge of my lounge chair scratching my eye's out with anticipation....

@ Rhinehart: The large majority of my friends are quite well off and don't fit that stereotype either, in fact one of my friends that hates micropayments the most, is the owner of a large IT Company who runs his business from home where he pretends to be working, but most of time when he is actualy playing online games with me.

Oh and by the way thanks for the good wishes, it's been a long slow battle but I'm getting there.

I hope your wife has a speedy recovery as well.

[Raeven]

I was discussing perma loss with a friend. Much like the thread in general discussion, I like the idea of perma loss, but quick turn around time to regain those 'Mechs.

One idea under that system, let players pay real money for permanent 'Mechs, garage slots, etc. I also think a new player should be able to jump in game and purchase every 'Mech chassis they want for real cash, if they desire. They won't have any perks or experience, but if they want to run around in an Atlas 100% of the time and have the money for it...more power to them and more bank to PGI.

[verybad]

I too think players will be able to buy any mech and or equipment/bling they want for that mech. Skilsl has been said will only be buyable through stuff done in the game, and skills could be very useful depending on how they turn out.

I am also not rich as I'm epileptic and work only 4 days as I started having more siezures when I went back to 5 days (Nor can I play for super long hours for similiar reasons, which is probably for the best as it gets me outside or at least reading a book).

I would like for mechs to be buyable through c-bills won in the game, with the full understanding that those won't be done as quickly as they are with real cash. If skills are useful, (eg enhance targeting, or better jumping, etc) Then it would be better for the game and Piranha's profit as well if they take time to build in game (better for the game because if people can get everything immediately through simply buying it, they'll probably get bored fairly quickly also)

Finally, good luck Phatt. Hoping the best for you, and sad to hear of your illness. Wishing you a speedy recovery as well, it sounds like you're a focused thinker, and I'm sure that will help. Strength to you.

[Rhinehart]

I think they've got a pretty take on things from the interviews I've been seeing. Kay Wolf posted a bunch of links to some on the boards here somewhere so search him up if you're curious.

I don't think I have a problem with being able to buy at least stock mechs off the shelf with real cash if people want to and have the money to spend. Since the Devs seem absolutely determined to have important roles for all weight classes of mechs there probably won't be a need to go for the biggest baddest piece of walking metal. That being said knowing my own strengths and weaknesses the option to get myself a Marauder or Black Knight to start instead of say a Catapult or Archer might save me a lot of grief. Historically missiles aren't my strong suit.

I think there will be plenty of options to go around and I'm hoping that the option to buy some of the more rare chassis is available in the micro-transaction shop. With releasing new designs or even bundles of designs there's a good chance we could see a lot more chassis in this game that have never been included in MW titles before. I'd love to drive a Grasshopper or a Flashman or a Shootist, some the types you didn't see a lot of. I don't think you are going to find one chassis that gives a huge advantage vs others so I don't see a balance issue here.

[CeeKay Boques]

Sceadwian, on 21 December 2011 - 07:37 PM, said:

If the options don't include something equivalent to a 10-20 dollar a month subscription that can reach end game content within a year of release and an hour a day play.. I'll bail. I got better things to do with my time and my money... The goal here for the developers is to convince people like me that I have enough money and time to spend on this game without whoring out the economics. I don't envy them.

End...game content?

You and me. We're the content. This isn't an MMO. We create the content. They provide the equipment, the engine. That's how I'm reading this game. Your name, your Avatar, your worth, and what that means to the rest of the players is "End Game". There's not going to be "the ilKhan" boss. Its a perpetual world, and will only be as strong as what we put into it, frankly...

[funnybonzo]

I can point to two different game(s) developers that are excellent examples of what the Microtransactions video talks about. The first is Turbine. They put out Dungeons & Dragons Online and Lord of the Rings Online. Both of these games are free to play, and both of these games allow free players the opportunity to earn all of the currencies a subscribing player has access to. The Turbine Points used in the DDO/LotRO Stores are earned at a much slower rate than what a paying player earns, but the free player still has the ability to earn them and then spend them to unlock content, races/classes, etc. And from my own experience as both a subscriber and a free player under this system, it was easier to make decisions about what I wanted to purchase with the Turbine Points (ie. what was really important) as a free player with fewer Turbine Points to spend than as a subscriber with lots of Turbine Points to spend.

The second example is...World of Tanks (contain your surprise). Wargaming.net had a fantastic model for a free to play MMO back in the beta. A new player would create an account and have 0 credits and 2000 gold (I think, it's been a long time). You could spend that gold on whatever you wanted: premium account (bonus credits and xp), better ammunition, higher end equipment, etc. And every week, you would automatically be awarded with 300 gold to hoard or spend. After WoT went to full launch, gold became available for RMT (Real Money Transaction) only. And Wargaming.net started creating gold purchase only tanks, which did/does unbalance the game in allowing anyone the ability to purchase very powerful (if non-upgradable) tanks. In some cases this wasn't a problem because those particular tank drivers were completely devoid of ability/skill for playing the game. In the majority of cases however, you ended up with very skilled players in tanks that were more powerful, more heavily armored, and since they were non-upgradable those 'gold tanks' were automatically earning their drivers double credits and convertible xp.

I personally have encountered players who purchased the Löwe in WoT and spend months grinding through matches just so they can then spend that converted xp to purchase a Tier 10 tank without having had to buy, upgrade, and work through the other tanks to get that Tier 10 tank like every other 'normal' player. For those that don't know, it take longer than just a few short months to build up the XP to get to a Tier 10 tank the normal way.


Personally, as long as 'Mechs and equipment are never made RMT I doubt there is anything that could be made RMT that would unbalance the game.

[Raeven]

funnybonzo, on 21 December 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

After WoT went to full launch, gold became available for RMT (Real Money Transaction) only. And Wargaming.net started creating gold purchase only tanks, which did/does unbalance the game in allowing anyone the ability to purchase very powerful (if non-upgradable) tanks. In some cases this wasn't a problem because those particular tank drivers were completely devoid of ability/skill for playing the game. In the majority of cases however, you ended up with very skilled players in tanks that were more powerful, more heavily armored, and since they were non-upgradable those 'gold tanks' were automatically earning their drivers double credits and convertible xp.

I personally have encountered players who purchased the Löwe in WoT and spend months grinding through matches just so they can then spend that converted xp to purchase a Tier 10 tank without having had to buy, upgrade, and work through the other tanks to get that Tier 10 tank like every other 'normal' player. For those that don't know, it take longer than just a few short months to build up the XP to get to a Tier 10 tank the normal way.


Personally, as long as 'Mechs and equipment are never made RMT I doubt there is anything that could be made RMT that would unbalance the game.

Other than the fact that non-paying players couldn't buy a Lowe, I don't see a problem here. The Lowe was a 25 dollar tank when they released it. It was comparable with the other heavies in the same tier, not better than any of them. 25 bucks is a lot of money to spend on any game, let alone for a single item within a game. It's now a 50 dollar tank.

[CeeKay Boques]

Sceadwian, on 21 December 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

You mean they provide the avenue for us to give them money? If this were from a true content creation standpoint I wouldn't have a problem with it because there would be no money involved.

I can define a fixed value for my entertainment time, and how much of it I want to spend. If what I expect of my entertainment dollars is not met by this game, then it will not receive me money.

It is an MMO, just instanced.

The game hasn't even started yet and people such as myself are already being summarily judged.

Hey, I'm not pickin' on your thrifty ways, I only have so much time to spend myself. However, I'd like MWO to get your money, that helps all of us.

I'm just curious as to what you envision (because, as you said, it must conform to that vision) "End Game Content" will look like in MechWarrior Online? To me, I don't see an "End Game" just an "On Going" game. So, for the Mechwarrior that I see, I don't see how you will ever be satisfied, how will there be a pinnacle? Achievements? All the Perks? Mech maxed out? Not a judgement, an observation of a cliff I see.

Under your definition of MMO, all server based FPS are MMO's the moment someone builds a league around it, or stat recording....

[funnybonzo]

Raeven, on 22 December 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

Other than the fact that non-paying players couldn't buy a Lowe, I don't see a problem here. The Lowe was a 25 dollar tank when they released it. It was comparable with the other heavies in the same tier, not better than any of them. 25 bucks is a lot of money to spend on any game, let alone for a single item within a game. It's now a 50 dollar tank.

The issue with the Löwe is less that it is overpowered in comparison with other tier 8 heavy tanks (and it was before the latest patch); its that since it cannot be upgraded, it is automatically assigned Elite status and brings in double XP and credits without the player having to take the time to earn elite status on a particular tank. If WoT offered the ability for all players to purchase XP boosts with in game currency, and said xp boosts did not come as a permanent item, then no problem. But the issue I brought up the Löwe was/is about selling power and how that's a bad thing. If it were just a powerful heavy tank that players could jump right in to without having to work through the Light, Medium, Heavy tiers to earn one, that would be one thing. But since it is a tier 8 heavy tank that earns double xp/credits it does become a power balance issue. And it still is even after the price increase.

Currently in WoT I'm about 100,000 xp away from being able to research up from my tier 8 Tiger II to the tier 9 E-75. 100k xp. I average about 1500 xp per match. And lets say due to time constraints I only play 4 matches a night and I earn my full 1500 xp. I have to play in 67 matches to earn that 100k to level which works out to 17 days (rounded up). Which wouldn't be all that bad if I were able to make that happen every time for the next 17 days straight. But I won't be able to play some nights. Other nights my team (or I) will suck horribly and very little xp will be gained. Or something else that would prohibit the 17 day grind. Essentially (as my gf put it) being able to purchase that kind of power is like a new to World of Warcraft player buying their account from eBay and the account has all level 80 characters on several servers.

Again, I have no problem with the idea of being able to make a microtransaction that would temporarily reduce my overall time spent grinding xp; but the sticking point for me becomes the permanence of any item/ability that would grant that kind of power. Is it available to all players without the players having to spend real money on it? If yes, no issue - because the in game currency is used to make the transaction. If no, then it is a problem because you're limiting content to the players willing to shell out cash for that particular content.

[AlanEsh]

Tweaks, on 20 December 2011 - 04:56 PM, said:

No you're not more valuable to PGI than the average Joe player. Watch the video in the OP... You'll see that non-paying are as important (if not more) important than paying customers, for a simple reason: THEY ARE the content of this game. Since they make the bulk of the player base, it's what makes the game fun to play.

Nobody will pay for a game if they are going to be the only ones playing it. For this game to be fun, you need as many players as possible. Hopefully, PGI won't fall into the same pit-hole as other F2P games have fallen into and attribute as much importance to non-playing players as they put on paying players.

The shortcuts that I would allow are time shortcuts. By that, I don't mean being able to completely skip things, but rather being able to go through them faster. So, if you don't have time to grind 20/7, find, pay for it and it will take you half as much time. What I don't want however, is that you are able to completely skip the grind altogether.

If you don't have time to play a game, then don't play it. It's simple.

I'm fully aware that the non-paying players are important to the game, but without enough payers the game fails faster than it will with too few non-payers. If PG doesn't provide a way for reasonable money-->time exchange, then they're not providing anything I'll want. I won't pay them for fluff that doesn't either enhance my enjoyment of the game or reduce "grind", whatever that turns out to be.

Your final "simple" statement is the most ridiculous thing i've read from you on the subject so far. I'll guarantee your attitude isn't shared by PGI.

funnybonzo, on 22 December 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

The issue with the Löwe is less that it is overpowered in comparison with other tier 8 heavy tanks (and it was before the latest patch); its that since it cannot be upgraded, it is automatically assigned Elite status and brings in double XP and credits without the player having to take the time to earn elite status on a particular tank.

Elite status doesn't improve a tank's earning multiplier. Premium tanks have a built in bonus to xp and credit earnings.

Edited by Angelicon, 23 December 2011 - 09:03 AM.

[Raeven]

Sceadwian, on 21 December 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

I think the only problem with the Free to play system is simple; the original developer reason for doing F2P was simply avoiding the initial 40-60 dollar purchase of a game and a monthly subscription, but if what I have to spend in real life to get my character to end game content is more than that? This could be money grubbing at it's worse, so as with any game of this sort you BETTER have some damn good economists and pay attention to the gripes of the little man to make it work well.

Ok.. So you spend 40-60 dollars to buy the game from the store. Then you pay 10-15 dollars a month for a subscription to keep playing the game. You're still paying more than the initial purchase from 120-180 a year.

Minimum, you'd spend 160 dollars on the game.

Free2Play lets you start out immediately. If it's anything like WoT, you can buy a years worth of "gold" for 100 dollars. You can spread that money month by month like a subscription, paying only for the time you play to get exp and credit bonuses. Or, you could spend a little on the months you play and a more to buy "gold" access items or quick access to items that would normally be a grind.. In the end, it still comes out cheaper than a store purchase and subscription and you get to spend your money on things that are important to you other than a regular monthly fee.

[Tweaks]

Angelicon, on 23 December 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

I'm fully aware that the non-paying players are important to the game, but without enough payers the game fails faster than it will with too few non-payers. If PG doesn't provide a way for reasonable money-->time exchange, then they're not providing anything I'll want. I won't pay them for fluff that doesn't either enhance my enjoyment of the game or reduce "grind", whatever that turns out to be.

Your final "simple" statement is the most ridiculous thing I've read from you on the subject so far. I'll guarantee your attitude isn't shared by PGI.

And I'll guarantee that they do share it to some extent at least. I'm not saying they don't care about paying customers, I'm saying they won't put all their hopes into them and provide them with exclusive benefits that allow them to skip over some of the content without having to work for it. It's not the way to make money with a F2P game.

A better way is to give all players the same incentive to purchase something often enough that they receive a constant source of income. Getting players hooked to the point they are willing to pay small amounts at a time for faster leveling for example (without getting rid of the grind altogether), is a much better way to do things. That way, players will be even more likely to pay for something else to boost their chances in combat, since they actually have to fight to get xp, even if they get it faster... Is this making sense? (my phrasing that is...)

And yeah, if you don't have the time to really dedicate to the game at least to some level, then you shouldn't be playing it cause you'll miss everything and won't enjoy it. You can't have it all and not work for it, whether you have more cash or not.

Angelicon, on 23 December 2011 - 09:00 AM, said:

Elite status doesn't improve a tank's earning multiplier. Premium tanks have a built in bonus to xp and credit earnings.

Being elite they do allow you to exchange xp for free xp and level up other tank trees faster though!

Edited by Tweaks, 23 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.

[Rhinehart]

So far from what I've heard about World of Tanks it's like the exact model of what NOT to do in MWO. Racing forever to unlock the next level of tank and the next, with no garuntee the next tank won't suck for you because of your personal playstyle or just because the design sucks in general. I've also heard a great deal about "Indestructable" opponents that couldn't be beaten just because their tank so completely outclassed what the opposition was fielding.

No thank you, please keep world of tanks far, far away from MWO.