52 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Title kinda says it all. I know i have not been one of those folks that has been clamoring for new weapons or even a time-line bump. I kinda like to look at the long term, and honestly i have been hoping this title grows for another 10 years and beyond. I look at some of the best online games that have been around for going on two decades now, and the one thing the great ones all share are the ability to move forward and continue to make better, and expand and keep people interested.

Mech warrior has this in spades, because of the whole time line thing, but with the lore, we know that things often become obsolete. I know this being a game and all, it won't stick exactly to lore, but i really hope in this one case that really is true. I'd hate to see my old weapons and classic builds on mechs just become yesterdays news.

So i have to wonder, how new weapons are going to be added, and still keep the classic weapons working, and worth using.

How does MWO do what no other mech game has in the past.. Not make the game just about power creep and new weapons.. I know it is part of it in some ways, and honestly i think they could do a little better job in this area.. Sorry folks do i need to use the "N" word on certain mechs?

I guess the big question is, How do they add new weapons, and make them have a different play style, while keeping old weapons and mechs still worth using, with a good chance on the battlefield.?

[Nik Reaper]

Well. it's hard but doable, they would need to make noticeable differentiation's on the basic stats of all the weapons, but heat and duration/projectile speed are probly the ones they could play with the most.

You need to see clearly that the ErML is made for range but if you want to brawl you do not want ErML, even though it can be used, because the ML should do it a lot better ei. shorter burn, less heat and better recycle.

Because of a meta of that time, a certain range bracket will always be king at that time, but what is important is that other ranges still have advantages if you can get in to them or keep them, so though ErML might be chosen over ML most of the time, because med range ~500m is where it's at, if the ML is just hands down better at ~300m it will be taken by dedicated brawling mechs over the ability to poke a bit further. But if the difference is not enough than yeah, it will fade to obscurity, almost like the AC20 was not used when gauss didn't have a chargeup and was just as good at brawling as at sniping.

[Acehilator]

I don't know why people are soooo afraid of a few weapons/items becoming obsolete... so what? You played with the old stuff for years and years, time to let go. And apart from SHS, there is not much stuff becoming obsolete anyhow.

- IS LFE would obsolete IS XL, but I am not convinced we will get it
- Ammo type switching for LB-10X would kill the regular AC/10, but again, not convinced it will get implemented
- Snub Nose PPC might obsolete LPL, but it's 3067, not sure they will go that far in the timeline
- MRMs might intrude on SRMs, but only in select cases imho, so yeah...

Keep calm and mechwarrior on.

[jss78]

I'm not sure if it's a problem in itself if some stuff DOES become obsoleted.

I'm totally for balancing all possible hardware where reasonably possible. But if some of the stuff remains in game only to enable succession-war or clan-invasion era retro games, this is no probem.

Say SHS vs. DHS as an extreme example, asking for "balance" between these two is kind of like asking a longbow to be balanced with an AK-47.

[Bombast]

Acehilator, on 15 January 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

- IS LFE would obsolete IS XL, but I am not convinced we will get it

I doubt it. It would, for the most part, obsolete the Standard engine (But not entirely), and would replace XLs in mechs with truly atrocious hit boxes, but I think many people are going to find that torso destruction survival doesn't mean much when tonnage restraints are still keeping you from running maximum weapons.

Well... on second thought, maybe it will obsolete it in 'competitive' matches. And I guess that's where balance matters mosts?

Quote

- Snub Nose PPC might obsolete LPL, but it's 3067, not sure they will go that far in the timeline

Maybe. All it would really take to 'save' the LPL is some velocity nerfs, though.

Quote

- MRMs might intrude on SRMs, but only in select cases imho, so yeah...

Personally, I think MRMs are going to be the most difficult to balance new tech released. Absolutely none of the negatives put in place to balance them in the TT counter the fact that just about any mech can carry one MRM40 and turn into a brawling superstar. I think current SRM boats will survive as long as they have enough hard points, but the idea of a CPLT-C4 popping out of no where and dumping 80 damage out in one trigger pull is horrifying.

Stream fire is probably the easiest fix, but that could easily swing the other way and make them worthless. I dunno... I'm a bit nervous about them.

On the subject as a whole, I don't think there's much to worry about. I really, really doubt their going to jump to the end of the 60s (That is a lot of weapons to release at once), and if I'm honest, I suspect that the hope that we may be getting the a lot of these weapons is unrealistic - We're probably looking at matching other Mechwarrior game's load outs, not expanding into the truly weird tech a lot of people are talking about. IS LB-X, Ultras, Streaks, with maybe a handful of truly new weapons for Clan and IS is probably what we're looking at.

The only equipment I can think of that may straight up replace another weapon system is the LAC/2. That thing really is awesome in MWO terms compared to the AC/2, assuming they don't go the other way and 'pre-nerf' it into uselessness.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Heavy and ER lasers are really the outliers that have the potential to obsolete the old laser families.

[Alan Davion]

Acehilator, on 15 January 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

- IS LFE would obsolete IS XL, but I am not convinced we will get it

OH FFS I wish people would stop spreading this around.

The LFE DOES NOT OBSOLETE ANYTHING.

It simply offers options for more builds and allows certain mechs to take certain larger weapons that an XL engine doesn't allow them to take, and allows them to take more ammo, weapons or other tech that they might not have the tonnage for when using an STD engine.

STD engines will still be required for certain mech builds. 5 AC5 Mauler for instance.

XL engines will still be required for certain other mech builds.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Alan Davion, on 15 January 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

OH FFS I wish people would stop spreading this around.

The LFE DOES NOT OBSOLETE ANYTHING.

It simply offers options for more builds and allows certain mechs to take certain larger weapons that an XL engine doesn't allow them to take, and allows them to take more ammo, weapons or other tech that they might not have the tonnage for when using an STD engine.

STD engines will still be required for certain mech builds. 5 AC5 Mauler for instance.

XL engines will still be required for certain other mech builds.

You can take 4 UAC5 on an LFE and that would be a preferable build to the 5AC5 mauler. Picks up ammo, speed, and the ability to surge DPS, and possibly backup lasers if that's what you build for.

[Battlemaster56]

Snazzy Dragon, on 15 January 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Heavy and ER lasers are really the outliers that have the potential to obsolete the old laser families.

Heavy Lasers personally they gonna be way to hot to be boated, and mostly like have some seriously strict ghost heat pentaly to punish anyone try drop more than 2 Heavy Medium Lasers for example.

ER lasers gonna be very popular when release for the IS, and able to fight clans in the 300 something plus range.

But your right these two will be the outliers.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

LFE will basically obsolete STD if STD is not buffed somehow (like a considerable bonus to CT structure or sth like that). LFE will not obsolete isXL, but isXL still needs some kind of buff if we want competitive, not overquirked IS mechs.
For example; STD=+15(?) CT structure, isXL = +5 ST structure; LFE = no bonuses, -10%/-20% engine rating and heat loss on torso destruction, clanXL = -25% engine rating and heat loss on torso destruction.

MRMs, if implemented correctly, should nicely fill the range gap between SRMs and LRMs. Now missle harddpoints are useless unless you want to make a brawler or a lurmer. Nothing in between. They just need to be made worse in short range than srms (dmg potential per ton etc.) but still useful >300m. 1dmg per missle+fast velocity+large cooldown should do the trick.

Problems with massive MRM volleys, MRM spraed, damage registration and massive geometry (40 tubes per hardpoint? OMG) could be solved by making MRMs fire half their missles in two volleys. Game would use lrm hardpoints (MRM40=LRM20 geometry, MRM30=LRM15 geometry etc.) and treat MRMs like ultra missle cannon with 0 jam chance. So instead of shooting 40mrms at once, you shoot 20 MRMs at first tap and another 20 MRMs at double tap whenever you want.

ER lasers shouldn't obsolete standard ones due to their higher heat and burn time. Both versions will find their applications, unless ER ones won't turn up over/under powered

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 15 January 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Bud Crue]

JC Daxion, on 15 January 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

So i have to wonder, how new weapons are going to be added, and still keep the classic weapons working, and worth using.

How does MWO do what no other mech game has in the past.. Not make the game just about power creep and new weapons.. I know it is part of it in some ways, and honestly i think they could do a little better job in this area.. Sorry folks do i need to use the "N" word on certain mechs?

I guess the big question is, How do they add new weapons, and make them have a different play style, while keeping old weapons and mechs still worth using, with a good chance on the battlefield.?

I don't think they have any intention to try and keep "old weapons and mechs still worth using". I think they are giving up on anything more than a pretense of working toward balance and are embracing the power creep model. Want to compete? Buy the latest greatest thing. Its that simple.

To further encourage this trend over the last year they have actively nerfed multiple middling mechs of older design. (Jester, Quickdraws, Enforcer, Shadow Hawk, etc). Why nerf what is already not competitive? Because it makes what is new look even more attractive. And when those newer mechs have better hard points, better load outs, and better performance criteria...as a starting point...then the old designs are rendered even less desirable.

Cataphract 4x or Black Widow? The former has some of the lowest hard points in the game, the lowest engine cap of any heavy, and fairly bad hit boxes. The later is better in every way...but is behind a pay wall. Huh. Imagine that.
More current: How about that Marauder IIc? Warhawk still getting a lot of play is it? Kodiak vs Dire. Etc.
Sure there are some old mechs and techs that will always be good. A Timber is never going to be a bad mech for example. But that isn't the point.

The point is that PGI has more interest in offering us something better than what we have so that we want to buy it. Something objectively better sells, well, better, than that which is merely different; and balance is about different but equally viable...and that is not only hard, but objectively bad for a business based on offering something new every month. Gonna be real interesting as their new sales model is instituted, but I don't expect a pause in the power creep department.

[Acehilator]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

[snip]

We are talking equipment here, not mechs. The quirks and Dartboard of Balance™ are another topic. New equipment is looooooooong overdue. It is going to be delayed anyways (as per PGI gold standard), so I would expect perhaps a September release. Clans were released what... June 2014? Open Beta October 2012, so no new equipment for roughly half of the lifetime of this game.

That is just plain ridiculous. Almost as bad as "FW in 90 days"™.

And stop whining about weapon balance, Paul will never ever get it done. With the introduction of new tech the meta will just shift, something else might become FOTM, but who cares? It is just more fun having more toys to play with (and against) in QP.
Thanks to the failed PSR system T1/T2 is full of tomatoes at this point anyways, so please stop worrying.

And if you are in the competitive scene and dislike change, tough luck and no pity from me.

[Felbombling]

My biggest fear is that PGI only goes half way and leaves a lot of great weapons out. We've been waiting for years for new weapon systems to be introduced into the game, but imagine the backlash PGI will face if they leave out that certain weapon system you've been craving. For me, it is the Thunderbolt Missile Launchers and the Advanced Tactical Missile Launchers. I'll go ballistic if they aren't added!! See what I did there?

[Mystere]

Time, technology, and life itself is not static. New and better things supercede outdated and worse ones, and the latter are replaced for a very good reason. As such, this insistence on making 100 year old or more ancient tech perform just as good as the latest ones is just plain silly.

Such insistence results in the very same balancing nightmare MWO has right now.

To handle such things, planning is important. Vision is important. Foresight is important. Well thought out design is important. All of that is important ... well unless of course the only goal is to sell more Mech packs and swag. Then none of that is important.

Edited by Mystere, 15 January 2017 - 10:35 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Acehilator, on 15 January 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

We are talking equipment here, not mechs...

I quoted the OP's final question in my answer. If you want to limit the discussion to only the impact of new weapons and equipment thats fine, but are you really asserting that their potential novelty should supersede balance? That the meta will just shift is certainly true but if the meta shifts to mechs carrying only the new tech and equipment then that is exactly the fear the OP is pointing to. Don't get me wrong, I think what you are proposing is exactly what will happen, because that is the clear direction PGI has chosen. But the OP's conern is still a legit one and if the new weapons and equipment are allowed to make everything else obsolete then people are going the "whine" about the utter lack of balance like never before.

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 January 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Gladius Vittoris]

LOL: OP would like someone to buff a musket to a Beretta AR 70/90's level

Nonsense.
So: LOL

Edited by Gladius Vittoris, 15 January 2017 - 09:17 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Mystere, on 15 January 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Time, technology, and life itself is not static. New and better things supercede outdated and worse ones, and the latter are replaced for a very good reason. As such, this insistence on making 100 year old or more ancient tech perform just as good as the latest ones is just plain silly.

Such insistence results in the very same balancing nightmare MWO has right now.

To handle such things, planning is important. Vision is important. Foresight is important. Well thought out design is important. All of that is important ... well unless of course the only goal is to sell more Mech packs and swag. Then none of that is import.

Yup. Last vision statement (or as close to one as I can recall) was last year and then again at mechcon. Both times their "vision" in this regard was that everything was to have a role and a comparative equivalent value. That may be absurd from a RL perspective, but that is their stated vision.


Now, compare that to their actual conduct toward the game. Its even sillier than the RL comparisons above. New tech is going to be a hoot.

[Nik Reaper]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

....
That the meta will just shift is certainly true but if the meta shifts to mechs carrying only the new tech and equipment then that is exactly the fear the OP is pointing to. ...

I don't get this part of your worry, it is stated that new tech will be released to all at same time as the mechs using it come out, and unless the new mechs have special slots for certain new equipment that can only be slotted in them ( ecm, masc, ams) we only still care about tonnage, shape, hardpoints and hitboxes, while applying new tech to old and new mechs ..

Edited by Nik Reaper, 15 January 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Mole]

Well the IS has had both the LL and ERLL for a long time now. I don't know about you guys but the ERLL has never obsoleted the regular old LL. My 'mechs see a good mix of both, because sometimes I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of extra range for better heat efficiency.

[Bud Crue]

Nik Reaper, on 15 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

I don't get this part of your worry, it is stated that new tech will be released to all at same time as the mechs using it come out, and unless the new mechs have special slots for certain new equipment that can only be slotted in them ( ecm, masc, ams) we only still care about tonnage, shape, hardpoints and hitboxes, while applying new tech to old and new mechs ..

I was told we weren't talking about mechs (see above), and was trying to limit the discussion to just the potential of the new tech.