46 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Tristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

I get it. But some people can't remember their mother's birthday, yet they can quote everything Paul Inouye said about pulse lasers between 2013 and 2015. Human memory is super unreliable, but I know Warhammer 40,000 lore better than most Isis extremists know the Quran, for whatever reason.

Human memory is often reliable in a number of annoying ways.

Can confirm.

I still forget the birthdays of my immediate family yet I still remember that one time in 8th grade when a girl told me that she wished I would get beaten up in high school. F#$% that b#^%$.

[JC Daxion]

Tristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

I was expecting the Skill Tree to be used for balancing. For example, if you get a cooldown bonus for a Timber Wolf, you get -1% cooldown, but if you get the same bonus for your Urbanmech, it's -5% cooldown.

But from the sound of it, the Skill tree will be identical for every mech, and the only way to balance mechs will be the base quirks.

Right, i was thinking the tree's were going to be identical as well. But as i said, You can still use it as a tool by saying.. certain mechs have either limited points, or can't add certain buffs.

Personally i am not stuck on lore as a way as it must be, more the over all feel. Many games have come from pnp, and have made very fun games, but have not been exact rules. Dungeons and Dragons is a prime example of games that can be made by a rule set, but done differently in a computer game and still keep the flavor/feel, but balanced for a computer game. Baldur's Gate did this amazingly, but others have as well.

[Andi Nagasia]

Sjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

Considering that even the quirks we currently have fails hard at doing this, why would less quirks succeed at it?

but they really dont, even with all the weapon Quirks Striped away(Skill less Mechs)
Both sides are relatively Equal, Clan Mechs because of Large XLs go fast have good mobility stats,
so then they get Mastered Good Clan Mechs(ACH, SCR, TRB, KDK(+350XL) Get much better Agility,
-
where as IS mechs have to run XL if they want that kind of Agility, if not they take a STD,
which is why many IS mechs have much better Agility Quirks(+10% all the way to +30%),
this means Agility Wise (C+STD < IS+STD < C+XL < IS+XL)
-
now we have IS Structure, which works the same way, (C+STD < IS+STD < IS+XL < C+XL)

Sjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

If they are going to make skill-less mechs balanced, they actually have to both keep the current quirks and add more, quite a lot more in many cases.
i dont think its needed as most Tech already Feels Balanced,

Or they could balance the tech, then you would need a lot less quirks.

yes their are some Out Layers (Clan Endo / Ferro) but for the most part its balanced,
C-ACs are Lighter but but spread more of their Damage, IS-ACs are PPFLD but are heavier,
C-LRMs are Ligher but again Damage Spreads with Stream Fire(AMS eat them) IS-LRMs Volley is much more Reliable,
C-SRMs are Lighter but need Artimus to reach IS-SRM levels of Efficiency and Spread,
C-Lasers, moot Point, i feel they are balanced, but many feel ether one side or the other has the Advantage,

Sjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

At no point will reducing the quirks while not balancing the tech and giving every mech the same amount of skills going to make balance better, that'll make it a lot worse. If that is the plan it's just completely moronic. (que mandatory idiot with "let's see how it play out!" here)

again i feel Tech is balanced, PGI has done a good job of Balancing the tech over these past Few Months,
not everyone agrees in the way they balance MWO, and the steps they take to balance MWO,
but the Fact is this is the Most Balanced MechWarrior game that has ever been,

[Funky Bacon]

jss78, on 17 January 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

If the tree is the same for all 'mechs, i.e. they don't "build quirks into the tree", what I guess will happen is that the bonuses you can unlock from the tree will be capped at relatively low values. Something like the current modules -- nice little bonus wherever you want it, but no game changer.

And if they feel the 'mech definitely needs something more (and I sure hope they understand that some 'mechs do), put in some variant-specific base quirks too.

Say if all 'mechs can unlock a maximum of +10% PPC velocity from the tree, but our balance overlord has decided that an overall weak PPC 'mech like the Vindicator really could use a +50% quirk, they'll throw in a +40% velocity quirk and the rest you can unlock from the tree if you so choose.

Indeed. An Awesome with just 10% velocity and really weak heat reduction is gonna be not so awesome. Even with the good quirks it has now not many people seem to want use it over other options. Same thing goes for a lot of other "weak" mechs.

[JC Daxion]

Tristan Winter, on 17 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm kind of surprised that all skill trees will be identical for every mech. Not just on account of role warfare (I'd like to see unique abilities for light mechs, for example), but also because 10% weapon cooldown bonus or speed bonus on a Kodiak is very different from a Mist Lynx, no matter how well balanced they are.

Yea, this is another thing, It seams to me like each weight class should have it's own tree.. Granted much more work, but i would rather see something this big get a delay and get it right, than hurried out.. But then again, PGI has shown they are willing to expand the scope of things, so i would not be against a single tree as a main balance tester to start, then expand from there.


I would also think that Clans and IS should have different trees as well... So that would up the total to 8.. I guess we will see the first phase when it hits test next month

Edited by JC Daxion, 17 January 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Funky Bacon, on 17 January 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

Indeed. An Awesome with just 10% velocity and really weak heat reduction is gonna be not so awesome. Even with the good quirks it has now not many people seem to want use it over other options. Same thing goes for a lot of other "weak" mechs.

Exactly, but just take something like an Adder, which could benefit from a Agility buff, but perhaps something very nimble already like an ARC does not and perhaps could be locked out of that particular buff, even if it is a small bonus. (for the record i do play ARC's so not hating, just saying)

[Andi Nagasia]

JC Daxion, on 17 January 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Yea, this is another thing, It seams to me like each weight class should have it's own tree.. Granted much more work, but i would rather see something this big get a delay and get it right, than hurried out.. But then again, PGI has shown they are willing to expand the scope of things, so i would not be against a single tree as a main balance tester to start, then expand from there

we still arnt sure that they will have identical Skill Trees,

for example, from my Topic on the New Skill Tree

Andi Nagasia, on 06 December 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

(Download can be Found (HERE)(sorry i know it can be hard to see, hence why i added Download Link)

Here we call all see the New Skill Tree as it is Currently,

=Navigation=(of the Skill Tree)=
First Row(Ballistics)= (AC) / (UAC) / (LBX) / (Gauss),
Second Row(Energy)= (Laser) / (PulseLaser) / (PPC),
Third Row(Missile)= (LRM) / (SRM) / (SSRM),
Fourth Row(Mech)= (Armor/Structure) / (Twist/Turn-Angle/Speed) / (Accel/Decell/SpeedTweak)
4th Row(continued)= (JJ) / (CoolRun/HillClimb/ect) / (TargetInfo/RadarDecay) / (UAV/CapAssist)
Note that Mechs seem to have a Max of 75 SkillPoints total,


=Also on the Grounds of Mech Balance=
so some mechs will keep some Quirks, & some will have their stats adjusted for balance,
with this in mind, we can assume PGI isnt starting from Scratch with Mech Balance,

so the 10k Exp per Skill Point is just a Place Holder,
much like how much of the Skill Tree is full of +0%,

i dont think the JJ Tree will exist on a ADR, or the Ballistics Tree on a CRB,
im hoping they expand these the Trees for these Mechs and provide Extra Trees:
a Non-JJ Tree(Replaces JJ Tree for Mechs with No JJ)
a General Weapons Tree(Replaces Energy/Ballistic/Missile Trees in case no E/B/M hardpoints on mech)
i feel its very likely we will see some Extra trees that Mechs have that others Dont,

[Sjorpha]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 January 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

again i feel Tech is balanced.

Clan tech is dominating every current collection of data on performance, from leaderboard data to competitive usage and so on. Tarogato and others have compiled and posted this over and over. Mech the Dane made a video going throught the current evidence. Competitive players on this board keeps confirming it. The top mech for almost every role in every weight class is a clan mech. And at the low end of the spectrum, the worst mechs in the game are IS mechs. That information is a thousand times more reliable than your feelings, sorry.

You post a list of the things that are reasonably well balanced (ACs, missiles etc), and I agree they are, while completely excluding the longer list of things that are completely unbalanced (engines, PPCs, Gauss, Endo, Ferro, Small laser family, DHS, and most non weapon equipment.) Seriosuly, how dishonest is that?

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 January 2017 - 02:41 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Sjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Clan tech is dominating every current collection of data on performance, from leaderboard data to competitive usage and so on. Tarogato and others have compiled and posted this over and over. Mech the Dane made a video going throught the current evidence. Competitive players on this board keeps confirming it. The top mech for almost every role in every weight class is a clan mech. And at the low end of the spectrum, the worst mechs in the game are IS mechs. That information is a thousand times more reliable than your feelings, sorry.

You post a list of the things that are reasonably well balanced (ACs, missiles etc), and I agree they are, while completely excluding the longer list of things that are completely unbalanced (engines, PPCs, Gauss, Endo, Ferro, Small laser family, DHS, and most non weapon equipment.) Seriosuly, how dishonest is that?

Just wanted to hop on again to say that it was probably word play between others I've heard, more importantly, I've looked towards the roadmap to see that this week we'll be getting all the info on it we needed.

And yes, clan tech vs IS tech is unbalanced. Everyone has their reasons as to why, and here's mine:

Clan tech armor upgrades take up 7 less crit slots (aka Endo and Ferro), while IS takes up 14 per upgrade. so, 14 crit slots used as to 28. And let's not forget the clan xl engine, which takes up two less crit slots to a IS XL engine (not including clan xl advantage of killing two torsos as to one.) and oh, did I forget clan weapons take up less slots too?

That's why clan tech > IS tech, it just takes up less slots and are more sleek. Yeah sure, they aren't as tanky as some IS mechs, but what good is a IS mech if it can't outgun a clan mech?

Per say, just look up one of Pariah's Videos on YouTube. I was with him in a Lance of Huntmans with a 72 alpha. against Griffin's and cents.

Guess what happened?

[Andi Nagasia]

Sjorpha, on 17 January 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Clan tech is dominating every current collection of data on performance, from leaderboard data to competitive usage and so on. Tarogato and others have compiled and posted this over and over. Mech the Dane made a video going throught the current evidence. Competitive players on this board keeps confirming it. The top mech for almost every role in every weight class is a clan mech. And at the low end of the spectrum, the worst mechs in the game are IS mechs. That information is a thousand times more reliable than your feelings, sorry.

You post a list of the things that are reasonably well balanced (ACs, missiles etc), and I agree they are, while completely excluding the longer list of things that are completely unbalanced (engines, PPCs, Gauss, Endo, Ferro, Small laser family, DHS, and most non weapon equipment.) Seriosuly, how dishonest is that?

ill Admit that Clan does have Advantage, but clan can have the advatage even if the sides are balanced 45% to 55%,
you have to ask, if Clan is better, then how much better is it? and the leader board isnt the best resource for Mech Data,

PPCs? Clan ERPPC is hotter not by much, but IS also have a 10Damage 10Heat Option,
in this case i think having this option allows IS more viability than Clan,

Gauss / Endo / Ferro, Granted that they need work,

S class Lasers i think we need IS ERSL before we can actually get an accurate take on this

and DHS are in an Odd Space, before the Dec Patch i would say DHS where good,
now im not sure, i dont know how i feel about Current DHS,

things can be in a good state of balance with out things being perfect 50/50 balance,
perfect balance it a myth in video games, good balance doenst have to be perfect balance,

[El Bandito]

Too early to say but I feel like Lights and Mediums will gain less from the tree than the bigger guys.

Andi Nagasia, on 17 January 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

ill Admit that Clan does have Advantage, but clan can have the advatage even if the sides are balanced 45% to 55%,
you have to ask, if Clan is better, then how much better is it? and the leader board isnt the best resource for Mech Data,

things can be in a good state of balance with out things being perfect 50/50 balance,
perfect balance it a myth in video games, good balance doenst have to be perfect balance,

I'll acknowledge balance between factions only if comp teams take IS and Clan mechs 50/50 ish. And I don't mean spamming a single IS mech either.

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 18 January 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

I'll acknowledge balance between factions only if comp teams take IS and Clan mechs 50/50 ish. And I don't mean spamming a single IS mech either.

Exactly.

You look at results to check what is balanced.

[C E Dwyer]

I'll believe tech is balanced when the comp teams go loyalist, 50/50 clan/I.s

Until then nah.

[Johnny Z]

JC Daxion, on 17 January 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

I was pondering this as of late.. I have to wonder if the new skill tree is going to be part of the balancing tools of the game. I know we don't know much about it yet, But it seams like we will have points to spend, and choose what boxes to fill up to get bonuses.

are they movement, or armor, structure, heat, weapon bonuses??

But to me this could be used as a balance tool. top performing mechs getting certain boxes unable to be filled. Perhaps some mechs will have more points to spend than others?

Just seams like a way to not use the big bad &quot;N&quot; word, and focus on not buffing even more.. While under performing mechs, could use it to buff up aspects and get them more on par with top performers.


Just thoughts, what do you think?

For sure it will be I think. Very hard game to balance just became more complicated but also more options. Then add the new weapons and equipment coming this year as well.

A lot will change for players.

I hope some other gameplay is added as well though.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 January 2017 - 07:01 AM.

[Lily from animove]

No.

since the skilltree will be unlocked with XP and cbills and reskilling will cost ingame money, it is not a good tool for balance.
balance is an ongoing process. and every change in this would force people to reskill wit the cost of mc or cbills. They could also refund every mech they changed but all in all that would be an annoying task then to reapply the skills everytime they change something. The only balance they cna put in there is somewhat the mech geometry issues, because they don't change much or often if at all.

if PGI wants the skiltree to be a tool of balance, then they need to allow people unlocking the entire tree and restricting the choices on the tree so that you can unlock 40/40 ksills but only choose 20/40 of them being active, and changing this is then for free. But so far that seems to not be the way how PGI implements the tree.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 January 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Lily from animove, on 18 January 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

No.

since the skilltree will be unlocked with XP and cbills and reskilling will cost ingame money, it is not a good tool for balance.
balance is an ongoing process. and every change in this would force people to reskill wit the cost of mc or cbills. They could also refund every mech they changed but all in all that would be an annoying task then to reapply the skills everytime they change something. The only balance they cna put in there is somewhat the mech geometry issues, because they don't change much or often if at all.

if PGI wants the skiltree to be a tool of balance, then they need to allow people unlocking the entire tree and restricting the choices on the tree so that you can unlock 40/40 ksills but only choose 20/40 of them being active, and changing this is then for free. But so far that seems to not be the way how PGI implements the tree.

If it has some resource management then good. Some gravity to mech tree choices and costs to redo them.

This may not be ideal for FOTM players, but should the game be made for FOTM players only? They are other kinds of players as well. Maybe some actually like a particular mech for example. Maybe someone read a book or played the table top game and like a certain mech.

[Tristan Winter]

El Bandito, on 18 January 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

Too early to say but I feel like Lights and Mediums will gain less from the tree than the bigger guys.

Why?

[Lily from animove]

Johnny Z, on 18 January 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

This may not be ideal for FOTM players, but should the game be made for FOTM players only? They are other kinds of players as well. Maybe some actually like a particular mech for example. Maybe someone read a book or played the table top game and like a certain mech.

It's not about the FOTM players, those players have enough cbills to always respec, but they will eb annoyed by it. But the noobs and newbies short on Cbills they need for new mechs, they will not be able to switch to the FOTM's and so in relation have to stick to inferior builds should balance shift. Thats not solving things it's just widening an already existing gap. thats why I consider it a very bad tool. Also for omnimechs it is even more worse because it destroys the entire idea of podswitching making this even more expensive.

Also will this skill tree even be per mech basis or will it be chassis based. because if its chassis based the entire omnimech idea and field two equal CT's on different configs just breaks the entire omnimech idea.

I just fear this system will have some fundamental flaws in some smaller areas which PGI doesn't accounts that break the entire system into being badly balanced. I fera this because the ehatsystem has this flaw, the ghostheat system has that flaw, the JJ changes have that flaw, and their attemp on Energy draw has that flaw. The simple fact that there was also some niche special things breaking all the mechancis PGI implements lets me not believe this will differ with the skil trees.

the first thing that will happen when the skilltrees coem up is, people check which choices are inferior, and simply cross them out as valid choices. No matter if thats the tech trees skill or the entire mech itself. So many JJ choices. wow, I doubt they will be chosen when they compete with weapon quirks.

[Johnny Z]

Lily from animove, on 18 January 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

It's not about the FOTM players, those players have enough cbills to always respec, but they will eb annoyed by it. But the noobs and newbies short on Cbills they need for new mechs, they will not be able to switch to the FOTM's and so in relation have to stick to inferior builds should balance shift. Thats not solving things it's just widening an already existing gap. thats why I consider it a very bad tool. Also for omnimechs it is even more worse because it destroys the entire idea of podswitching making this even more expensive.

Also will this skill tree even be per mech basis or will it be chassis based. because if its chassis based the entire omnimech idea and field two equal CT's on different configs just breaks the entire omnimech idea.

I just fear this system will have some fundamental flaws in some smaller areas which PGI doesn't accounts that break the entire system into being badly balanced. I fera this because the ehatsystem has this flaw, the ghostheat system has that flaw, the JJ changes have that flaw, and their attemp on Energy draw has that flaw. The simple fact that there was also some niche special things breaking all the mechancis PGI implements lets me not believe this will differ with the skil trees.

the first thing that will happen when the skilltrees coem up is, people check which choices are inferior, and simply cross them out as valid choices. No matter if thats the tech trees skill or the entire mech itself. So many JJ choices. wow, I doubt they will be chosen when they compete with weapon quirks.

I am glad you said it isn't about FOTM players because the rest of what you said doesn't make any sense.

Players that are not FOTM players will enjoy crafting a mech to their liking through the mech tree and applaud balance improvements.

If there are sim elements such as mechbay costs then that's even better.

This new way is actual mech modifications. Not a skill tree. From what I understand.

Furthermore! I hope changing load outs costs creds! Sim ftw. FOTM players will love it! The beginnings of an actual in game economy. Players that hate this game will hate it.

Edited by Johnny Z, 18 January 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

Tristan Winter, on 18 January 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

Why?

Because assuming all mechs get the same trees to choose from and same amount of nodes, that means the classes with more guns will obviously benefit more than those with less. Also, Russ did say that many of the quirks will be removed with the coming of new skill tree, and guess which classes have the most quirks to rely on?