97 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

razenWing, on 18 January 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

So in your mind, Mechwarrior is NOT a twitch shooter? But you don't need to answer. I know what you going to say. And that's quite honestly where we see things differently. But that's more of a matter of opinion.

And while rageaholics is not the bible (as I said, I only agree to about 20% of his video), that point is none the less a valid one to push the Mechwarrior title into a completely new territory. And why not? I played Mechwarrior 3 where you have a floating mouse independent reticule. I played Mechwarrior 4 where the check to have an absolute 100% shot is to press the 0% acceleration to have the perfectly steady shot. I do agree that what he's saying have honestly never really appeared before.

But I do share his sentiment that when I think of robots, I also tend to think of very messy gritty combats. But hey, that's to everyone, right?

In MW4 you didn't have to stop at all for 100% precision accuracy. You could be jumping mid air and still have 100% precision and accuracy.

Also, I dislike your idea, as it forces all weapons to essentially be LBX. You remove every playstyle that people enjoy except for LBX (which is a small niche) and you suddenly lose almost all your players. I definitely wouldn't be playing if the entire game consisted of looking in an enemy's general direction and spraying them down with random firepower. That idea is what makes it more like COD where you just go around with an assault rifle or SMG and spray bullets in the general direction of an enemy. I came here for mechwarrior, which has had 100% precision accuracy for about 2 decades.

You entirely remove the whole aspect of shielding vs precision, simplifying the game heavily and entirely removing the "thinking man's" part of this shooter away, while also reducing the importance of positioning due to reducing the potency of well positioning and reducing the punishment of bad positioning. Any sense of competitive skill would be removed and we'd be left with essentially a weeknight COD match with everyone having 10x health running around the map spraying enemies when they see them.

You say this thread has nothing to do with aiming skill and is about immersion, yet you are literally talking about entirely removing aiming skill from the game while only adding immersion for this extremely small niche inside of this already small niche game that believes every gun is a shotgun.

This game is a thinking man's shooter, not a twitch shooter. You still must actually think at a reasonably fast speed and position correctly, look at enemy health readings, decide on sections to fire on, spread incoming damage based on your own health readings and build, have a mental idea of various mech builds, have high map knowledge so that you can position well, have a strong sense of tactics so that you may properly flank, distract, weaken, split, wither, and suppress the enemy to improve chances of winning, and then you have to actually aim at each section of an enemy manually except with streaks and LRMs or LBX far away. That is a very high amount of actual thought that has to go into this game if you're playing at any high level, many low level players never get to experience this thinking man's shooter portion of the game, as they constantly whine about deathballs, people aiming better than them, whatever they think is OP, or the LRMs that keep raining on their head because they don't understand positioning.

Twitch shooters involve entire games regularly being decided by muscle memory speed twitch reactions usually resulting in instantly killing opponents or giving an advantage to the first person who shot that cannot be caught up with. Occasionally positioning and surprises can make their way into these games, but the overall victor is heavily decided by reaction speed and accuracy. CSGO would be a good example with the high use of AK headshots and AWP oneshots mixed with use of cover and ambushes. It has multiple tactics available, but a player with high enough accuracy and awareness can still kill off the enemy team in seconds, making a very volatile game.

What you're suggesting is essentially Star Trek Online in which ships fly around, autotarget all guns towards an enemy and its a DPS, healing per second, and special ability race until one person dies. Its really rather boring and there are no tactics other than just running in at the enemy and trying to throw some debuffs on them or just buff yourself up really high and have a high damage build with some durability.

Edited by Dakota1000, 19 January 2017 - 09:39 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Dakota1000, on 19 January 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

stuff.

thats mostlikely how it turns out. Many people have wishful visions that sound like a good concept, but the details reveal how they would truly be played out. And thats not how Op think it owuld be.

[Mystere]

I'm just commenting on this part:

Dakota1000, on 19 January 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

In MW4 you didn't have to stop at all for 100% precision accuracy. You could be jumping mid air and still have 100% precision and accuracy.

I could counter that in 2000, CPUs were not as powerful as before and as such the developers went for simplicity (i.e. less CPU cycles) instead of correctly modelling weapon precision.

As such, can people please refrain from these "they didn't do it then, so why should we do it now" arguments?

Edited by Mystere, 19 January 2017 - 09:31 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mystere, on 19 January 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

I'm just commenting on this part:



I could counter that in 2000, CPUs were not as powerful as before and as such the developers went for simplicity (i.e. less CPU cycles) instead of correctly modelling weapon precision.

As such, can people please refrain from these "they didn't do it then, so why should we do it now" arguments?

I simply included that part as a correction to his thinking that he had to stop back in MW4 for complete accuracy. Though I still prefer that system over a fully modeled convergence system. I tend to prefer a mix between simulation and arcade that we're currently sitting on perfectly in my opinion.

[razenWing]

Anjian, on 18 January 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

I am going to add that the mentioned games here, using an autolock system, also use dispersion on certain weapons, which means DPS is at its highest when these weapons are up close and the firing cone tightens, and at its lowest when these weapons are farther away and the firing cone loosens. However, this only works with ballistic weapons, not with energy weapons and missiles. Energy weapons always has pin point accuracy, which are either limited with longer cooldowns, lower firing rates, or reduced damage.

Auto aim systems also have a problem, they don't do peek and boo well. If for a mech for example, is under cover, but head and arms are showing, the auto aim would aim for the torso, which is under cover, and your shot will hit the covering rock instead, unable to hit the selected parts that are exposed out of cover. This makes head shots impossible.

Another problem of auto aim is that if this is the target mech, but another mech runs close to it and goes into the aim cone instead between you and the original target, the aim lock towards the original target is lost and shifts to the other mech. In a meatball situation, this can get ugly as your reticle may end up constantly shifting. Again if mechs are constantly doing peek and boo, the aim would lock and lost, lock and lost, so it can also be annoying.

Given this, it would be wise to keep the option of manual aim, maybe in a sniper mode?

Well, that's why I stated from the start that this auto-aim is only a toggle-able options. It is not a replacement of the current system. While I respect opinions from guys like Dakota, I am not proposing anything drastic to take away what they can currently do.

If you enjoy the amount of sim already, keep doing manual targeting. No one is arguing to change that. I feel this is something like 3rd person. You always had the option to do it. If you don't want it, you don't need to use it. But to make like 5 pages ranting about how 3rd person is bad because you don't want to use it, it's like... okay?

One of the legit argument for/against 3rd person is how that would interfere with people staying in 1st person POV. To this far, only 1 person listed a potential implication of widening skill gap, though that's conjecture and opinion.

----------------------------------------------

On a side note, for people that don't think this is a twitch shooter, actual combat of how the game is supposed to be play occurs very rarely in the game. Most gameplay involve peek-a-boo and poptart now, and I'm just going to leave it at that.
There are very few instances where people go circle strafe one another in a "duel." I honestly have to question whether you guys still play the game if you don't think it's moving toward twitch FPS direction.

(And honestly, if it is, it's not a value call. It's like if MWO is labeled a twitch shooter and somehow MWO is like a lesser game. There nothing wrong with MWO being LIKE a twitch shooter (not one). But this thread is to propose a new gameplay mechanics for people that want to steer in the other direction.

PS what's wrong with Star Trek Online? Gameplay and certainly "precision" targeting (or lack thereof) certainly wasn't one of the complaint about the game. It's just a different game with different mechanics. Just because games have different mechanics and different measure of skill doesn't make one better than another. I can argue that at its peak Star Trek Online have more players than MWO ever has, so obviously more people prefer that style over. But it won't be a legitimate argument, because it's like comparing apples and oranges. My point is, you can take one aspect of another game and justify that one is better or another.

You like aiming precisely? Leave manual aim on. You like something different, try the auto-aim. That's really all there is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

razenWing, on 19 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

Most gameplay involve peek-a-boo and poptart now, and I'm just going to leave it at that.

That means nothing on whether this is a twitch shooter. Cover is a concept that will always be a factor because you don't want to take unnecessary damage (just like how partial cover is powerful in TT).

razenWing, on 19 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

There are very few instances where people go circle strafe one another in a "duel." I honestly have to question whether you guys still play the game if you don't think it's moving toward twitch FPS direction.

That's because circle strafing duels are moronic in a team game. If you want duels like that, play light/medium 1v1s or 2v2s.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 January 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[Mystere]

razenWing, on 19 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

Well, that's why I stated from the start that this auto-aim is only a toggle-able options. It is not a replacement of the current system. While I respect opinions from guys like Dakota, I am not proposing anything drastic to take away what they can currently do.

If you enjoy the amount of sim already, keep doing manual targeting. No one is arguing to change that. I feel this is something like 3rd person. You always had the option to do it. If you don't want it, you don't need to use it. But to make like 5 pages ranting about how 3rd person is bad because you don't want to use it, it's like... okay?

Well, you can always count on this noisy and largely self-entitled player base to loudly stomp on any proposal they do not like even if it does not affect them in any way whatsoever at all.

Edited by Mystere, 19 January 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[MacClearly]

Now I am going to try and keep my normal self in check here but it is going to be a bit hard and I am bound to offend...please believe I will be doing my best to say what I feel and why and not intentionally being insulting.

I had to frame it this way because there is no other way to phrase it other than this is a reallly, really horrible idea. Not just a little.

First big issue is we have this game. What you are talking about is some other game or maybe the next game. It would be impossible for a company to pull off such a huge change in mechanics, that the game play would be entirely and completely different (or atleast toggled as such). No company would risk alienating their players in such a drastic way.

Another huge issue is the fallacy of this came being a CoD ripoff. If someone actually believes that without being glib than they have never played the franchise or are familiar with counterstike cgo etc, etc, etc.... One of the reasons this game has so many older players is how the mechs engine limits mobility and speed which is a great equalizer. It is also why lowering dpi is key in this game while most shooters it would be a huge disadvantage outside situations like sniping.

Finally if this was turned into a mech simulator, with auto aiming, the degree of difficulty would somehow have to be raised considerably. Right now where we get our competition is other players and their ability to shoot and move. If everyone could shoot the same, on the maps we have currently, the game would be less challenging than tsum tsums. Most simulators challenge people by being very realistic and having a lot of different things to think about and control. Think of a flight sim. It can take 20 or 30 hours to learn how to take off and land.... I don't want anything like that in MWO. Again entirely different game.

As for the guy in the video....really? Outside of looking like a guy who has never seen a real woman naked before, he is wrong. MW4 Mercenaries was very arcade shooter like. I still play it from time to time and pretty much control my mechs in the exact same manner as I do in MWO. I do pretty much the exact same things by targeting limbs and such to blow off. A lot of the differences are mostly due to it being a single player game against AI. Other than that, the two play incredibly similar.

Luckily this idea is so bad and so off the wall that we really don't have to worry about it ever being even a topic of conversation over at PGI. Well except maybe an employee will see this thread and bring it up as a joke.

Edited by MacClearly, 19 January 2017 - 12:23 PM.

[Dino Might]

One thing I want to point out:

In every promo video of mechwarrior ever, you have mechs charging across the field blasting away at each other.
MWO is nothing like that.

The OP has proposed a way to provide an avenue for that style of play to have a place in MWO. I might actually like something that is more akin to the promo videos - I think it warrants investigation and, possibly, development.


Also, the concern about auto-aim jumping everywhere is ill-founded, because the proposal is not for auto-designation and aiming. Designation of the target would still be manual, and so your computer would not switch targets until you told it to do so.

This would provide some interesting options as far as mech control is concerned. Do you want torso slew control to be slaved to your designated target LOS? Do you want leg orientation to be slaved in that manner? Do you want arm slew to be slaved? Maybe there's a reason to do none of the above? What if you want to engage two targets at once? Slave arms to designated target, but leave torso control to the pilot so he can iron-sight those weapons. Fire at two different targets simultaneously, though at the disadvantage of the auto-aim dispersion and the boresight firing with the torso weapons.

It would be kind of neat and certainly a lot more to think about.

MacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

Finally if this was turned into a mech simulator, with auto aiming, the degree of difficulty would somehow have to be raised considerably. Right now where we get our competition is other players and their ability to shoot and move. If everyone could shoot the same, on the maps we have currently, the game would be less challenging than tsum tsums. Most simulators challenge people by being very realistic and having a lot of different things to think about and control. Think of a flight sim. It can take 20 or 30 hours to learn how to take off and land.... I don't want anything like that in MWO. Again entirely different game.

Oh my gosh, I WANT THAT more than anything in this game. To each his own, but man, oh man, that would be amazing. To have a mech simulation game. *drool*

Also, I'm on about hour 28 trying to successfully land the Spitfire MkIX. That sucker is a b**** to keep aligned after touchdown!

Edited by Dino Might, 19 January 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[mogs01gt]

IMO this game should have more computer base aiming over human. Its apart of lore and its important.

[Mystere]

Dino Might, on 19 January 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Also, I'm on about hour 28 trying to successfully land the Spitfire MkIX. That sucker is a b**** to keep aligned after touchdown!

Ouch!

Which flight simulator are you using?

Also, do you want to fly a heli next?

[MacClearly]

Dino Might, on 19 January 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Oh my gosh, I WANT THAT more than anything in this game. To each his own, but man, oh man, that would be amazing. To have a mech simulation game. *drool*

Also, I'm on about hour 28 trying to successfully land the Spitfire MkIX. That sucker is a b**** to keep aligned after touchdown!

But that isn't this game. You want an entirely different game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dino Might, on 19 January 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

One thing I want to point out:

In every promo video of mechwarrior ever, you have mechs charging across the field blasting away at each other.
MWO is nothing like that.

The OP has proposed a way to provide an avenue for that style of play to have a place in MWO. I might actually like something that is more akin to the promo videos - I think it warrants investigation and, possibly, development.

You mean moronic charges into the open without a regard for terrain features just to face stare at each other while holding the guns down, because that's exactly what would end up happening.

That said, the best promo videos aren't even produced by PGI, they are the "This is Mechwarrior" videos which are the thing I would show people to get into this game (not that I do considering this game's terrible NPE).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 January 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[mogs01gt]

MacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

But that isn't this game. You want an entirely different game.

umm this game was first marketed as more of a mech simulator than a traditional FPS. The more we go down the path of FPS, the more the game starts to fail. MWO is WAY too unbalanced to be a straight FPS.

Edited by mogs01gt, 19 January 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Mystere, on 18 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ahem! I think I am seeing the beer swirling inside the mug. If that is indeed the case, that implies deviation of some sort, which could have a significant effect on the accuracy of the weapon at long ranges as opposed to point-blank range.

The mug may be sitting level but the liquid within is not attached to the mug, so the effects of inertia is going to be visible. With all the ups, downs and the constantly changing forward momentum, anything on that tank that isnt bolted/strapped down and without sufficient mass to maintain adequate surface friction would be jostled around or fall off... That doesn't mean the stuff that is bolted down isn't also experiencing the effects of inertia as its mass is essentially added to that of the tank in its entirety, further increasing the energy necessary to counteract those forces.

So yes, accuracy is affected. Which is why, even with a fancy barrel gyro, tanks still have to wait for the peak of their crest/trough to fire, lest the inertial forces acting on the barrel be imparted into the shell.

[Dino Might]

MacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

But that isn't this game. You want an entirely different game.

Yes, and?

Mystere, on 19 January 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Ouch!

Which flight simulator are you using?

Also, do you want to fly a heli next?

Digital Combat Simulator. Top notch in my book. I fly the UH-1H, Ka-50, and Mi-8 in it as well. Mi-8 is my new favorite heli.

[MacClearly]

mogs01gt, on 19 January 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

umm this game was first marketed as more of a mech simulator than a traditional FPS. The more we go down the path of FPS, the more the game starts to fail. MWO is WAY too unbalanced to be a straight FPS.

This game was marketed from the perspective of being a different kind of FPS. It is in many ways not a straight FPS because of mechanics like the engine limiting the speed of the mech and effecting how quickly a player is able to turn and aim.

[Dino Might]

MacClearly, on 19 January 2017 - 04:06 PM, said:

This game was marketed from the perspective of being a different kind of FPS. It is in many ways not a straight FPS because of mechanics like the engine limiting the speed of the mech and effecting how quickly a player is able to turn and aim.

This game has much more in common with the FPS genre than the Simulator genre, without a doubt. I hesitate to say it has any simulation type elements. Movement, aiming, and shooting are all simplified models with goofy physics (so many have complained as much, about hitreg, pebbles, perfect precision). What other elements are there to this game? Mechlab, I guess, but that kind of customization is found in other FPS games, too. Only so many variations of Lg Pulse/Med laser you are going to take...

[WarHippy]

razenWing, on 18 January 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

No pacing is way different. I agree again. But stylistically with the pinpoint firing, there's not that much difference. Hence, I called it "slower pace modern FPS shooter," or something to that effect in my first post.

Which brings me in mind with another game, Crysis 2 and 3 where you pick up the HMG. Bullets don't track in a precise line and bullet 1 and 2 might land in different places despite firing from the same starting location. That's more or less close to my implementation (and what rageaholics is talking about). You basically unleash hell toward the general direction of the enemies until nothing is alive and/or you ran out of bullets.

We can never replace the current precise aiming model with that, but we can certainly test that on the unproven auto-aim, as it perfectly balances with drawbacks.

You would be having an easier time discussing this if you brushed up on your terminology. So far as I can tell you keep describing cone of fire mechanics and/or recoil like mechanics but you keep saying auto-aim which is a very different thing. In addition while MWO is a shooter more or less it certainly is not a twitch shooter. Nothing about MWO is twitchy.

[Mycrus]

Esports crowd (true target audience) wont like it.