50 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

VitriolicViolet, on 19 January 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

'train for weeks'? it took a matter of matches to adjust to the gauss charge. im not sure why so many people think its hard to use.

OP's point is a bit ridiculous, but the Gauss charge is a pain in the rear end for some players, me included. Either due to personal issues with it, or, in my situation, it being terrible for the colorblind with the charge indicator.

[AncientRaig]

Cassa Nova, on 19 January 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

The 152mm M10-T still had an effective range of several KMs even with the shortened barrel. And while yes the InnerSphere is in technological decline they can still produce direct energy weapons, to say they can't produce a main cannon specifically for tanks is to say that their industrial capacity has declined to the point where it be worse then the late 1800s early 1900s across HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of worlds.

The same can be said for machine guns, which are often 20-30mm autocannons instead of the stereotypical .50cal. They should have range in the kilometers but after under half a Km are completely non lethal.

That makes not logical sense. It was done for balances sake.

The artillery piece had a 12.4km range and would need a very skilled crew to be even remotely accurate out to that range. It was also designed to sling HE shells, not HEAP. The M10-T was a shorter barreled version of it. In either version, while it had a respectable range, it was a siege weapon. It was never meant for tank on tank combat and it showed because it was quickly phased out of production once the Germans invaded Russia. It's also smaller. Tanks mounting an AC20 have smaller turrets, with less room than the KV-2's turret had. Modern tanks, which have many similarities design-wise to some of the Battletech tanks, fit around 120mm cannons and are still decently cramped. It also does make logical sense to use something that you're already building instead of designing new things if what you're already building is working just fine. The state of the Inner Sphere before the discovery of the Helm Memory core was one of decline. Nobody was inventing new tech. If it was as simple as "lets just make it", they wouldn't have needed to recover Star League technology to build the HVACs, which are basically more in line with modern tank weapons.

MGs should have more range though. 240 meters? Hell, even MW4's MGs had a better range than that.

Edited by Sidefire, 19 January 2017 - 08:32 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

The same people that thought the UAC jam chance reduction quirk on the mist lynx was too strong and removed it.

[Alan Davion]

Cybrid 0x0t2md2w, on 19 January 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

if you ask me the worst thing about using gauss, or any UAC for that matter, is the fact armor is double in mwo

There's a reason for that.

It's called "AlphaWarrior Online" paired with FPS pin-point-perfect accuracy.

Because the heat mechanics are all borked up, as well as the fact all your weapons have perfect pin point convergence... Well, weapons that aren't missiles that is... The TT armor values that MWO started with were woefully, WOEFULLY inadequate to deal with the absurd levels of damage the mechs were capable of dishing out thanks to the ability to fire ALL DA LAZORS at one specific point on a mech.

You don't have this problem in TT because your weapon hits are determined via the roll of the dice, so it was down to luck whether you hit something or not, as well as the fact that if you rolled well enough, you could kill a mech in literally one shot with a through armor critical.

Now, we don't have through armor critical hits in this game, but mechs were still dying just as easily when the game still had TT armor/structure values, because as I said, bad heat mechanics and pin point accuracy lead to mechs like, let's take the Commando for instance.

With TT values it has 8 front CT armor and 8 CT structure. A pair of Large Lasers that hit the Commando's CT leads to one dead mech in literally 2 seconds... Less than 2 seconds actually.

Doubling armor/structure would allow the Commando to actually survive 2 shots from those 2 large lasers. Coupled with the mechs small size and speed, as well as the beam duration of those big guns, the life expectancy of said Commando was increased by a fair amount.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wesxander, on 19 January 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Seriously nerfing Gauss rifles to 1320 max? It's the longest mech mounted weapon both clan and innersphere period. Now you got clan ER PPCs out range gauss. THAT NEVER HAPPENED. Not even in alternate universe excuse that you been passing around. FYI Gauss do full damage on table top out to their max range which is 1 hex futher than ER ppc in the classic table top days. Now you got it doing all of whoping 7 points maybe 8 at range 700 or more? Clan ER PPC at those ranges damage still 10 plus 5 splash. It's insane. Bad enough you added a gauss rifle charge timer that people have to train for weeks on then change it around.

Seriously gauss rifle is supposed to be the longest ranged hardest hitting weapon in the game. Instead you think it should be like an auto cannon. That ER PPC should be best. Innersphere in 3053 and 3058 focused on gauss rifle equiped mechs because it was one the few peices of equipment they was nearly on par with the clans with. Clans typically didn't like gauss rifles because their ER PPC's did same damage and never ran out ammo.

Nerfing hell out gauss rifles and quietly doing so behind the scenes. I challenge you pick up a classic battle tech rule book and explain this logically. You can't.

Firstly, Gauss were not the longest ranged for both.

Gauss is 22 hex max range. Both Clan and IS ER-PPC are 23. Clan ER-LL, 25 hex. AC2 is 24 Hex. Clan LB-2X is 27 hex (tied with UAC2 for longest range of any weapon in typical 3050 use) and the C-UAC/2 is as mentioned, also 27 hexes.

So, when you start your entire rant off with a fallacy, it sort of all falls apart from there.

Gauss was simply brought to the range (approximately) it is supposed to have in comparison to everything else with their (basically) doubled range.

Cry more that you can't sit back at 1800 meters and chip peoples paint?

Challenge accepted, met and defeated.

-Veni, vidi, vici, baby.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 January 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[JudauAshta]

tc is the same type of person who complained when gauss was given a charge time. gauss was op back then, so much so that nobody used ac/20 over it.

even now gauss just melts things, i can 2-3 shot a daishi with my dual gauss night gyr.

i also personally feel gauss to be straight-up better then any ppc

[Y E O N N E]

JudauAshta, on 19 January 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

i can 2-3 shot a daishi with my dual gauss night gyr.

From behind, maybe, but from the front you've only just broken through its armor.

RestosIII, on 19 January 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

OP's point is a bit ridiculous, but the Gauss charge is a pain in the rear end for some players, me included. Either due to personal issues with it, or, in my situation, it being terrible for the colorblind with the charge indicator.

Count it out, man. I don't even use the indicators. Just saying the word "locomotive" at a normal pace and you are ready to fire.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 January 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

Count it out, man. I don't even use the indicators. Just saying the word "locomotive" at a normal pace and you are ready to fire.

I prefer the Army machine gun mantra, 'Die mother ****er die.'

Edited by Bombast, 19 January 2017 - 09:00 PM.

[BurningDesire]

give gauss a 12 sec cool down and restore how it was.

boom problem solved next

[Valhallan]

Alan Davion, on 19 January 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

There's a reason for that.

It's called "AlphaWarrior Online" paired with FPS pin-point-perfect accuracy.

Because the heat mechanics are all borked up, as well as the fact all your weapons have perfect pin point convergence... Well, weapons that aren't missiles that is... The TT armor values that MWO started with were woefully, WOEFULLY inadequate to deal with the absurd levels of damage the mechs were capable of dishing out thanks to the ability to fire ALL DA LAZORS at one specific point on a mech.

You don't have this problem in TT because your weapon hits are determined via the roll of the dice, so it was down to luck whether you hit something or not, as well as the fact that if you rolled well enough, you could kill a mech in literally one shot with a through armor critical.

Now, we don't have through armor critical hits in this game, but mechs were still dying just as easily when the game still had TT armor/structure values, because as I said, bad heat mechanics and pin point accuracy lead to mechs like, let's take the Commando for instance.

With TT values it has 8 front CT armor and 8 CT structure. A pair of Large Lasers that hit the Commando's CT leads to one dead mech in literally 2 seconds... Less than 2 seconds actually.

Doubling armor/structure would allow the Commando to actually survive 2 shots from those 2 large lasers. Coupled with the mechs small size and speed, as well as the beam duration of those big guns, the life expectancy of said Commando was increased by a fair amount.

Actually if you calculate the dps of weapons you'll find that they are also 100-150% increased over their TT versions, so really the double hp just unnecessarily gimps ammo requiring weapons by requiring them to devote more tonnage to them (except for srms and ac/10's which got properly doubled, ac20 urbie cries in a corner). They didn't even need to double armor if the weapons were at their TT level (see mechcommander weapon stats for another interpretation of translating the TT stats to realtime)

[Dee Eight]

Wesxander, on 19 January 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

Seriously nerfing Gauss rifles to 1320 max? It's the longest mech mounted weapon both clan and innersphere period. Now you got clan ER PPCs out range gauss. THAT NEVER HAPPENED. Not even in alternate universe excuse that you been passing around. FYI Gauss do full damage on table top out to their max range which is 1 hex futher than ER ppc in the classic table top days. Now you got it doing all of whoping 7 points maybe 8 at range 700 or more? Clan ER PPC at those ranges damage still 10 plus 5 splash. It's insane. Bad enough you added a gauss rifle charge timer that people have to train for weeks on then change it around.

Chill out Captain doesn't have his facts straight.

First off...MWO ignores the fact that there was NO optimal/maximum range scale in Classic BattleTech TableTop. What this game calls the "optimal range" is with few exceptions, the MAXIMUM range in CBT/TT. There are no 'short/medium/long' range bands in MWO because we don't roll dice to determine hit/miss outcomes. Tabletop didn't have to deal with muzzle velocities, particle velocities or the speed of light, because the turn length was sufficient to deal with the differences, and the fact all weapons fire resolved simultaneously, regardless of who fired first.

The only weapons in MWO which have the correct maximums are all SRMs, Streak SRMs and Flamers. Everything else has "new" figures unrelated to CBT other than comparisons of Optimal in MWO to Maximum in CBT. And in CBT, the gauss rifle wasn't actually the furthest shooting weapon. It was outranged by at least a half dozen other weapons from the moment they introduced the clans to the game. Even in the pre-clan/star-league era periods, it was out-ranged by the AC/2 and the ER-PPC.

Quote

Seriously gauss rifle is supposed to be the longest ranged hardest hitting weapon in the game.

Only in your mind it is. In reality and the game rules history, it was merely a low heat heavyweight alternative to a ER-PPC that didn't shoot as far.

Quote

Nerfing hell out gauss rifles and quietly doing so behind the scenes. I challenge you pick up a classic battle tech rule book and explain this logically. You can't.

I challenge you to pick up one also and look at the actual weapon tables.

[Dee Eight]

Mystere, on 19 January 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Balance you say.

Well then, please enlighten us all on what is wrong with an MG with a 1000m range?

Nothing...but we're fighting with walking tanks against other walking tanks. Ever looked at the armor penetration figures for tank guns during the second world war (there are tables for naval artillery also btw) ? The shells lose penetration with distance travelled, not to mention what happens if they deflect off the armor because of the angle they strike at.

These are figures for the WW2 german 88mm L/56 as fitted to the Tiger I

8,8 cm Pzgr. 40 APCR 7.3 kg 930 m/s 170 mm 155 mm 138 mm 122 mm 110 mm

And these are the same shell fired from the longer L/71 barrel as fitted to the Tiger II

8,8 cm Pzgr. 40/43 APCR 7.3 kg 1130 m/s 237 mm 217 mm 193 mm 170 mm 152 mm

The ranges for the different penetration values are 100m, 500m, 1000m, 1500m and 2000m. Notice how the longer barreled gun, at 1500 meters is penetrating the same amount of armor as the shorter barreled gun does at 100 meters firing the same shell. Its not that the shell/gun isn't lethal anymore at longer ranges...its that they're not lethal to the same targets any longer. At 2000 meters, that Tiger I gun isn't lethal against the same targets anymore that it was at 500 meters.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 19 January 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Balance you say.

Well then, please enlighten us all on what is wrong with an MG with a 1000m range?

Well, that would be a 1000m range hitscan weapon (because MGs are functionally lasers with an indefinite duration) for only 0.5 tons (or 0.25 for Clans), and assuming it kept the 2x max range it would also be the longest range weapon in the game, so that might get a little bit out of hand.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bombast, on 19 January 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

If you want to play with Gauss Walls, that's your business. But most people playing this game have no wish to be bisected by Gauss Boats from clear across the map.

Then maybe they shouldn't be standing still on top of the hill in the open to begin with. Stupidity is what made Gauss "overperforming", but sadly you can't fix stupid so you "fix" Gauss instead.

[Besh]

RestosIII, on 19 January 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

OP's point is a bit ridiculous, but the Gauss charge is a pain in the rear end for some players, me included. Either due to personal issues with it, or, in my situation, it being terrible for the colorblind with the charge indicator.

Yeonne Greene, on 19 January 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

[...]
Count it out, man. I don't even use the indicators. Just saying the word "locomotive" at a normal pace and you are ready to fire.

I have only recently started to use Gauss at all, and found I was memorizing the soundpattern really quickly and easily, without any conscious effort at all . In other words: I am not looking at indicators, or counting seconds...I hear when its charged, or where it is in its charging Cycle .

Using the sound as reference also makes it pretty easy for me to time charge/release when for instance waiting for a Target to come around a corner .

Edited by Besh, 20 January 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[RestosIII]

Besh, on 20 January 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

I have only recently started to use Gauss at all, and found I was memorizing the soundpattern really quickly and easily, without any conscious effort at all . In other words: I am not looking at indicators, or counting seconds...I hear when its charged, or where it is in its charging Cycle .

Using the sound as reference also makes it pretty easy for me to time charge/release when for instance waiting for a Target to come around a corner .

I'm just plain bad at getting the timing right based on the sound, and it probably doesn't help that while I'm playing, I'm either listening to Eurobeat or something Shiro Sagisu composed.

[Besh]

RestosIII, on 20 January 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

I'm just plain bad at getting the timing right based on the sound, and it probably doesn't help that while I'm playing, I'm either listening to Eurobeat or something Shiro Sagisu composed.

... (<- me at a loss for words XD )

[RestosIII]

Besh, on 20 January 2017 - 01:21 AM, said:

... (&lt;- me at a loss for words XD )

Try guessing if your Gauss charge is ready or.not based on the sound while listening to this.



It's not easy. So I rely on the visuals, which... Could definitely use some improvement.

[Besh]

Well, to be brutally honest with you, your Gauss charge Problem seems to come down to user error mostly XD .

I am going the easy route...and do not listen to Music while playing MW:O, so I can hear the Game's Sounds better....for various reasons .

Edited by Besh, 20 January 2017 - 01:31 AM.

[a gaijin]

Dumb idea:
change all weapon ranges & velocities to as near as possible to real world, theoretical weapons get velocities & ranges related to what real world physics state they would .

Make a Maps the size of tri-counties.
Change game name to "Mechwarrior the simulation."

I might actually like that more than this game