253 replies to this topic

[Bannok]

I just cant see the 7-S receiving any kind of nerf. It is starting to get really frustrating, is this because not enough people pre purchased the Roughneck?

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah, the poor -7S. I jad a fun brawler build on there, it wasnt amazing but it was fun. Guess it was "too durable"...

[Duke Nedo]

Sjorpha, on 22 January 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

I don't understand what you are diagreeing with, i didn't mention specific mechs. Please explain.

No biggie, I just meant that it's limited how much they can powercreep by releasing new mechs when we have mechs like these already in the game. They are not perfect, but pretty close. So I don't think its necessary power creeping as such by buffing rather than nerfing, you're just selecting a base line that is high instead of low.

I am also for buffing up weaker mechs to the standard set by the best clan mechs or slightly below. Once there we can evaluate if that performance level is too high or not.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sjorpha, on 22 January 2017 - 03:21 AM, said:

Actually yes, that preference for buffing weak options rather than nerfing strong ones, combined with the release of new strong options, is what drives power creep in games.

That's only if there are continual releases of something the redefines the meta single-handedly which 2 new mechs have only ever done within the past few years: the Whale (which fell once Clan tech was nerfed with the rebalance) and the Kodiak. Either way, the current bar is already set so buffing things out of fear power creep is honestly misplaced.

[MacClearly]

Star Commander Horse, on 21 January 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Not sayin that it's a bad thing (or good for that matter). It was just a statement of fact.

Same as "I see Mad-II-C and Kodiak in every Invasion drop."

I hardly ever, ever see any Summoner. Just me. That's off topic tho ;p

Guess am a bit sore because I generally run 3 Ebons or 3 Hellbringers and a Shadow Cat. Since my Clan only account is puggalishious I usually start off in the Scat and a lot of times it lasts very long and does well for me, especially the 2 cPPC version.

Oh and you can still find pug buffoons who regularly schedule in Kodi's in FW. Not even shocked anymore when they are lrm Spirit Bears....

If you are a strong medium pilot the Marauder IIC isn't thaaat bad a choice.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 January 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

That's only if there are continual releases of something the redefines the meta single-handedly which 2 new mechs have only ever done within the past few years: the Whale (which fell once Clan tech was nerfed with the rebalance) and the Kodiak. Either way, the current bar is already set so buffing things out of fear power creep is honestly misplaced.

We aren't counting the Timberwolf in there? It stole the pop-tarting crown from the CTF-3D and then drove the laser vomit meta after PPFLD and JJs got nerfed. Even today, there's almost always one Timberwolf in every competitive composition.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

We aren't counting the Timberwolf in there? It stole the pop-tarting crown from the CTF-3D and then drove the laser vomit meta after PPFLD and JJs got nerfed. Even today, there's almost always one Timberwolf in every competitive composition.

After the fall of the poptarts the Timby drove things in QP, but comp was dominated by the Whale.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

We aren't counting the Timberwolf in there? It stole the pop-tarting crown from the CTF-3D and then drove the laser vomit meta after PPFLD and JJs got nerfed. Even today, there's almost always one Timberwolf in every competitive composition.

There was a Lord in a pub queue match the other day that said WHM>TBR. I dont really agree, but I can think of some instances where I would rather have a WHM.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 January 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

There was a Lord in a pub queue match the other day that said WHM>TBR. I dont really agree, but I can think of some instances where I would rather have a WHM.

Well yes, you wouldn't want to use the TBR for overwatch duties, not when the WHM (and the NTG) can put out a more sustained stream of damage from better mounts. The BK replaced the TBR on overwatch duties for mid-range maps during the brawl-overwatch meta, and was in-turn replaced in the role by the WHM at all ranges save extreme. TBR has always maintained a presence, though. If it's not as a laser vomit 'Mech, it's as a brawler or a pop-tart.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 January 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

After the fall of the poptarts the Timby drove things in QP, but comp was dominated by the Whale.

Interesting. I always thought it was more of a hammer-and-anvil kind of thing; that the Whale didn't do as well when the highly mobile TBR wasn't there to press the enemy into its guns.

[Ultimax]

It's cool guys, we can all now play 60 ton Dragons if we want to go "tanky role" according to devs who apparently never actually play the game.

Edited by Ultimax, 22 January 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 22 January 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

It's cool guys, we can all now play 60 ton Dragons if we want to go "tanky role" according to devs who apparently never actually play the game.

Well, it's more like "Scats are too strong, because they are popular and must be nerfed".

There's a difference between cause and effect (or causation vs correlation) and for whatever reason... they are using the KDK-3 as the benchmark reason for the Warhammer.

At this rate, the ACH will be nerfed (again) because Firestarters and Lolcusts didn't become great again.

[MischiefSC]

Kuaron, on 21 January 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

So increase power creep and give everything even more quirks.
Let me think about it…

Other suggestions?

So the first question is, where's the line? What mech should be the 'top mech' to which other mechs are balanced? Are we saying that all the top performers in Clans now actually have to be dialed back *significantly* to come down all the way to where IS heavies will perform?

A better option would be dialing all the other IS heavies up a bit, most the Clan heavies up a bit and the top few Clan heavies down a tiny bit. The WHR is tough but not better than, say, a BLR 2C. It was strong but not out of scope for a good medium or light pilot. It didn't dominate a single bracket (like the Night Gyr does) but was a strong performer over both short and mid range.

It was a poster child for exactly where you want a T1 heavy to be. It's where you wanted other heavies to be. I'd say the TBR (being heavier) should still be *slightly* better. It should be *slightly* better than the EBJ. Maybe the WHR needs to be on par with the TBR because I'm really not sure what you can do to make the poorly, poorly designed clumsy AF Orion and the just as bumbly but at least better hardpoint provided (on 1 single variant) Marauder play at TBR tier.

I'd be absolutely fine with it - removing all structure quirks in fact if there was an intent to actually balance IS/Clan XLs, however this announcement came hand in hand with PGI stating unequivocally that they do not, at all, understand engine balance in the exact same way that they absolutely in no way understood what a gamemode killing failure of an idea Long Tom was for FW - which they left for 6+ months, killing easily half the games population at the time, and seemed shocked and confused when the whole roundtable stated directly to them that it was a horrible, horrible idea.

The FW roundtable and the confusion and surprise with which Russ responded to the universal condemnation of Long Tom made crystal clear to me that PGI can be utterly divorced from the realities of how critical, fundamental and constant factors in the game actually play out and their judgement on balance can not and should not be trusted.

It's frustrating, I admit.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 January 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

There was a Lord in a pub queue match the other day that said WHM>TBR. I dont really agree, but I can think of some instances where I would rather have a WHM.

Only for poking at 500m. Better speed and maneuverability, 1 v 1 a splat TBR (SRM6s+SPLs) kills a WHR without even losing all his armor in a single hit location up close. 2LPL, 4/5CERML TBR will pull a ST off a WHR before the WHR can CT the TBR. With the new structure nerfs this puts the TBR more than 30pts of armor/structure ahead of the WHR CT vs ST.

[Sjorpha]

Duke Nedo, on 22 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

No biggie, I just meant that it's limited how much they can powercreep by releasing new mechs when we have mechs like these already in the game. They are not perfect, but pretty close. So I don't think its necessary power creeping as such by buffing rather than nerfing, you're just selecting a base line that is high instead of low.

I am also for buffing up weaker mechs to the standard set by the best clan mechs or slightly below. Once there we can evaluate if that performance level is too high or not.

Right, if we have instances of maximally optimal design for each weight class, power creep is necessarily halted if we don't buff anything beyond that point.

That is technically correct, we can pick these mechs and say: "this is the gold standard, from now on we buff to this level". It's a compelling argument for buffing IS (preferably the tech itself rather than quirks) to that point, and not let us be overly deterred by fear of power creep, thanks.

I'm not so convinced that we are as close to the maximal optimum though. You have to imagine a maximal tonnage battlemech in each weight class with a 400 engine cap and unlimited cockpit level hardpoints, just a thought experiment to examine the optimal possibe builds. We don't have a 100 ton assault that can boat 8UAC2s in the torsos, we haven't seen a clan 35 humanoid with 300+ engine and 10 small lasers and so on. Maybe those designs don't actually exist, but surely that implies there is theoretical design space for even stronger mechs?

Still a compelling argument, to the extent we can forsee certain maximally optimal releases we could target those power levels for balancing from the get go.

[Sjorpha]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 January 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

That's only if there are continual releases of something the redefines the meta single-handedly which 2 new mechs have only ever done within the past few years: the Whale (which fell once Clan tech was nerfed with the rebalance) and the Kodiak. Either way, the current bar is already set so buffing things out of fear power creep is honestly misplaced.

I have to agree, the power creep has already happened essentially by introducing clan tech, and buffing everything else is pretty much the only choice after that.

Still, you can't argue that clan release>iic release>kodiak hasn't been a power creep process. If that wasn't power creep IS mechs wouldn't need quirks and the old strong IS mechs like Jager and CTF-3D would still be strong, if not tier 1 but still. Power creep has left them in the dust, that is hard to deny.

The failure to release clan tech without power creep was a big design blunder IMO.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Interesting. I always thought it was more of a hammer-and-anvil kind of thing; that the Whale didn't do as well when the highly mobile TBR wasn't there to press the enemy into its guns.

Naw because the Whale was strong even when people used Hellbringers instead of Timbys. Honestly had the Gyr been around during that time the Timby probably wouldn't have been as dominant.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sjorpha, on 22 January 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Still, you can't argue that clan release>iic release>kodiak hasn't been a power creep process. If that wasn't power creep IS mechs wouldn't need quirks and the old strong IS mechs like Jager and CTF-3D would still be strong, if not tier 1 but still. Power creep has left them in the dust, that is hard to deny.

While the initial release of the Kodiak was definitely power creep with the fact it had quirks on top of something we all knew would already be strong, you also must keep in mind there is a difference between power creep and just adding options that didn't exist prior. Like say we got a mech that was just better designed for poptarting than the CTF-3D (because it suffers from poor geometry and mounts) that was known for that sort of thing back during its heydey. Is that actual power creep or just adding an option that never really existed before? Actually, that exact sort of thing happened when the Stalker was added and completely usurped the Awesome, is that actually power creep?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 January 2017 - 05:32 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

A better option would be dialing all the other IS heavies up a bit, most the Clan heavies up a bit and the top few Clan heavies down a tiny bit. The WHR is tough but not better than, say, a BLR 2C. It was strong but not out of scope for a good medium or light pilot. It didn't dominate a single bracket (like the Night Gyr does) but was a strong performer over both short and mid range.

I already blew Fupdup up over this, and I'll say it to you... it's better to use judicious nerfs at the top, with buffs at the bottom, because even if it's just to things like structures, constant buffs DO affect the whole balance, and pushes creep, it does not even things out. For instance, if one "just buffs structure" as some suggest, that further weakens the impact of large guns, which already pay a premium in heat and tonnage, as they become more and more relagated to papercut territory. We already see this to some degree with the Hunchback. Thanks to pinpoint convergence, the ac20 really isn't near the menace it's suppose dot be..without commensurate rof quirks. Now you buff structures to compensate for power creep, and those mechs with limited hardpoints, become even more obsolete, without even more quirks to improve their lagging offense.

And it just becomes a never ending cycle.

Identify a desired average offensive capability, and defensive capability, and use nerfs and buffs to bring the outliers closer to that desired point. This reflexes OMG NERFS BAD! mentality inf gamers is just... ludicrous.

Admittedly, Paul Nerfs being bad is often a given... but using game development gone wrong as a model is not the way to go.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 January 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

While the initial release of the Kodiak was definitely power creep with the fact it had quirks on top of something we all knew would already be strong, you also must keep in mind there is a difference between power creep and just adding options that didn't exist prior. Like say we got a mech that was just better designed for poptarting than the CTF-3D (because it suffers from poor geometry and mounts) that was known for that sort of thing back during its heydey. Is that actual power creep or just adding an option that never really existed before? Actually, that exact sort of thing happened when the Stalker was added and completely usurped the Awesome, is that actually power creep?

And yet, even then...the issue wasn't the KDK as a whole...even quirked. Only one that was STRONK was the KDK3. The Spirit Bear was a tier 1 Assault, even quirked, while most of the rest weren't even that. (When's the last time you saw a KDK2 or 4? I once in a blue moon see a Small Laser vomit 1 or 5.... and Spirit Bear gets some play, but it's hardly overwhelming...even now..it's all about the KDK3).

Quite simply... the quirks were fine on the KDK no matter how much certain people *coughMISCHIEF!cough* wanted to rail against them. Because the other 5 variants of the KDK even quirked, were NOT OP.

The Issue was the bloody damn KDK3 coming into the game with Quirks. When even without quirks, a blind chimp could tell 4 super high ballistics on a clan mech is a BAD IDEA. Hell. Before quirks were even considered... when they Modeled it, the should have said...you know what...maybe two of these should be waist height.... or better yet... when they were designing the pack.. simply NOT PUT 4 DAMN BALLISTIC SLOTS ON IT.

But maybe I'm just a salty ******* who wants a reason to use his KDK4. Instead, when I play Clan Assaults, it's the (spoiler alert!!!!) KDK3... because it's the only one that is worth taking, overall.....because it's still OP.

Heck, I don't even run the MetaMech approved builds... I have a 380xl, 4x ERSLs, and 2xUAC10/1xUAC20 on mine... hadn't touched it since last summer because it was so OP..... and my first 3 matches, on a potato laptop, after not even playing in over a month were all over 900 dmg and 5 kills.

GG PGI.... close.

[50 50]

Bombast, on 20 January 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

Because it's overperforming.

I'd just like to know where it's overperforming. Because I can honestly say that in the 60 or so matches I've had this season, I've seen maybe 2 Warhammer. Are they tearing apart CW or group queue or something? Tier 1 only matches, maybe?

It may be different according to timezones, but it is an extremely popular mech, particularly in Faction Play.
It would be the premier 70 ton option and while you do see quite a few Grasshoppers, you do not see as many Archers these days and it is fairly rare to see a Cataphract.

The objective of the changes would be to reign in the inflation granted to mechs from their quirks so there is less power creep overall and make lesser used variants an equal choice when dropping into battle. There are obviously other factors such as hard points to take into consideration, but the perception of needing to take a particular mech over another or a personal preference when it is not the 'meta' is what shifts like this are about.