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Sooooo, Warhammer Nerfs, Really?

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#101 Van Hoven

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:51 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 20 January 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:


Not really. Clan Mechs with XLs now suffer 40% Penalty Instead of 20%. In My book, if you go 63KPH, it was originally borked down to 53KPH when you lost a ST. Now it'll probably be another 10KPH lost....



I was under the impression the 40% efficency loss was exclusively for heat dissipation of inengine heatsinks, nothing else.

Clan XL Engines

• The Cooling Efficiency Penalty from Side Torso destruction has been increased to 40% (from 20%).


^ patch note quote

Edited by Van Hoven, 20 January 2017 - 06:53 PM.


#102 Vonbach

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:51 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 20 January 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Not really. Clan Mechs with XLs now suffer 40% Penalty Instead of 20%. In My book, if you go 63KPH, it was originally borked down to 53KPH when you lost a ST. Now it'll probably be another 10KPH lost....

So yeah, welcome to Laying foundations for future stuff while not explaining that to everyone. :/


Oh please not more moaning about a little extra heat when a side torso goes.
Especially when an inner sphere side torso goes the mech goes. Clan mechs are already
faster have more firepower and more range.

#103 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:00 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 20 January 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:


Okay.... I was going to say... if you dismissed those IS mechs with 50% Cooldown for weapons stock....

Would've gone full Angry Clan man on you :P



Not really. Clan Mechs with XLs now suffer 40% Penalty Instead of 20%. In My book, if you go 63KPH, it was originally borked down to 53KPH when you lost a ST. Now it'll probably be another 10KPH lost....

So yeah, welcome to Laying foundations for future stuff while not explaining that to everyone. :/


Please tell me what the speed reduction is on an XL jag when ST is lost. Also heat penalties.

#104 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:01 PM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 20 January 2017 - 05:19 PM, said:


No it does not. Right from the Store in game...

Archer:

ARC-2R: 52 total structure
ARC-5S: 76 total structure
ARC-5W: 70 total structure
ARC-T: 84 total structure

Warhammer:

All four variants: 90 total structure


Great so the Warhammer has more structure on its limbs... hurray! And this is all moot, because comparing to the Archer as a baseline is bad.

#105 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:02 PM

Assuming 70% of the damage you do goes to the location you want, what's the total damage required to CT out a Night Gyr vs pull a ST off a Warhammer? Can someone do that math for me? At work right now, pretending I'm working.

#106 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:03 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 20 January 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Okay.... I was going to say... if you dismissed those IS mechs with 50% Cooldown for weapons stock....

Would've gone full Angry Clan man on you Posted Image


That was actually earlier than that 4-month window, and that Dragon was still a gimmick build. We now have Night Gyrs that can spit out more DPS and be more durable than that thing ever could or was, even with its speed.

IS being OP was the double-stacking of overly potent laser duration with overly generous general range quirks.

#107 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 January 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Assuming 70% of the damage you do goes to the location you want, what's the total damage required to CT out a Night Gyr vs pull a ST off a Warhammer? Can someone do that math for me? At work right now, pretending I'm working.


I'm not actually sure what you're looking for as a measure, here. Number of alphas using the standard 52-vomit build assuming 70% does what you want? If that's the case, it takes 134 damage to blow through the front of an NTG assuming an armor distribution of 88/4 (what I use for 75 tonners). It's going to take you 3.7 alphas to blow through that. The ST of the WHM-6R, however, only sustains 101 damage after quirks assuming distribution of 62/2, or 2.8 alphas.

And then there's the potential for a rear gib.

#108 FupDup

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:09 PM

I don't know if this is deliberate, but PGI really keeps hitting the wrong target with their Nerf guns. They should really buy those new Accustrike darts or even a Rival blaster, then they can finally hit what they're aiming at...

#109 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:14 PM

View PostFupDup, on 20 January 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

I don't know if this is deliberate, but PGI really keeps hitting the wrong target with their Nerf guns. They should really buy those new Accustrike darts or even a Rival blaster, then they can finally hit what they're aiming at...

the Dartboard of Destiny works in mysterious ways.

#110 MischiefSC

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:23 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:


I'm not actually sure what you're looking for as a measure, here. Number of alphas using the standard 52-vomit build assuming 70% does what you want? If that's the case, it takes 134 damage to blow through the front of an NTG assuming an armor distribution of 88/4 (what I use for 75 tonners). It's going to take you 3.7 alphas to blow through that. The ST of the WHM-6R, however, only sustains 101 damage after quirks assuming distribution of 62/2, or 2.8 alphas.

And then there's the potential for a rear gib.


That's exactly what I wanted, thank you. Couldn't get the armor/structure vales. So with all those "op structure quirks" the Clan equivalent still has about 33 more HP to kill.

So an *extra* 33 pts of structure to the ST on a whr would actually make it comparable to a Night Gyr to kill, with both pilots being pretty good and intentionally focusing for kills.. just the WHR has lower mounts and no JJs.

But due to something about STD engines that makes no sense to anyone IS XLs can't be as survivable as CXLs.

#111 Deathlike

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:27 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 20 January 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

the Dartboard of Destiny works in mysterious ways.


It is what we call "spraying and praying".

#112 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:27 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 January 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

That's exactly what I wanted, thank you. Couldn't get the armor/structure vales. So with all those "op structure quirks" the Clan equivalent still has about 33 more HP to kill.

So an *extra* 33 pts of structure to the ST on a whr would actually make it comparable to a Night Gyr to kill, with both pilots being pretty good and intentionally focusing for kills.. just the WHR has lower mounts and no JJs.

But due to something about STD engines that makes no sense to anyone IS XLs can't be as survivable as CXLs.


This is why I keep saying, all you have to do to balance the engines is make them grant enough structure and armor to make the ST exactly identical to the CT in hit-point distribution. The rest of the balance for IS can happen elsewhere.

#113 Felbombling

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:39 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 20 January 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

Help me understand -

Which Archers are as good as the Night Gyr, TBR, EBJ?

Just in case I missed the Archer meta.

Also, as CXLs take 2 ST to kill and as such effectively double their ST armor/structure HP to kill for that equation compared to any ISXL, how many more points does that give the Clan mechs?


Hey, man, I'm already on record as saying the Inner Sphere is getting the shaft when it comes to XL engine survivability. You're preaching to the choir here. As to the Archer, I used it as an example. I could have used the Cataphract or Grasshopper, too. You and Gas need to read my post again and stop assuming that I think the Archer is the baseline for Inner Sphere Heavy excellence.

View PostStaggerCheck, on 20 January 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

It's not a major nerf in the grand scheme of things, gang, what they're doing to the Warhammer. Just for the sake of argument, quirk totals for the Warhammer and the Archer when the Archers were injected into the game. I think these changes are just pulling the Warhammer into line with other Inner Sphere heavies, at which point, as they've already stated, the new skill system will be a big determining factor for overall balance.


#114 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

View PostFrechdachs, on 20 January 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

Well, it currently is the best IS 70t mech, and you do see a lot more Warhammers in dropdecks than Phracts and Archers. Comparing it to a Clan heavy makes little sense, especially to ones 5t heavier. It's not the biggest nerf, and I'll wait and see what it does to performance. As for Clan vs. IS balance, the tech upgrade will benefit IS more than it will Clans, another thing where I'll just wait and see. I'm pretty sure a dual UAC10 Warhammer will be brutal, with or without structure nerfs.


Why is that though, seriously? In a post-3050 environment vs Clans it is either lots of short range energy weapons taking advantage of energy quirks vs platforms built around missiles or ballistics, more so ballistics that heavy and do not blend well with energy weapons, and that usually require a fragile isXL engine. Tis like having stamped on your torsos with a bullseye, XL here <<>>. I was able to make a T-bolt w/GR and 2ERLL/3ML sorta work (got a headshot!!) Once they had a lock to see the payload, my CT still had yellow armor on it while LT was yellow IS by the time the RT was gone. If the isXL functioned like the cXL but w/different penalties I would still be fighting, reduced to firing 1ERLL/GR at a time, but still fighting. And if I could used a ST as a shield like one tries to do with the arms to reduce incoming damage, the LT would likely still had armor on it.

Even if IS gets its own UAC10 and LFE, that is tonnage being left on the table for the technology where the weapons are heavier and bulkier than the Clan counterparts. And quirks that get changed at the drop of a hat.

Essentially, keeping IS in energy boats favors the Clans. The Clans are able to boat up on ballistics/srm and shorter range cooler energy weapons, and with the speed that the cXL provides force confrontations that IS forces used to do when Clanners were using med/longer range energy weapons while IS forces were using shorter range but cooler running energy weapons w/TONS of quirks, not just from range but cooldown, duration and reduced heat generation.

The Black Knight, Warhammer, Grasshopper, Battlemaster all revolve around energy quirks with only the Warhammer and Battlemaster w/ballistic hardpoints. And the Black Knight and Grasshopper have horrible hardpoint locations. They only worked due to quirks and the advantage due to speed only provided by the fragile isXL, the same advantage Clans have with their cXL but without the fragility. And the Black Knight had its quirks hit a high point when it was released for MC then a few months later after it was available for C-bills where the offensive quirks castrated.

#115 Duke Nedo

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:30 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 20 January 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

As the title says, why exactly were Warhammers nerf instead of, you know, buffing IS mechs? Between the Summoner, Night Gyr, and Timber Wolf the Clans have the heavy class pretty much dominated and you nerfed the single IS heavy that was even remotely competitive with them? lolwut.

Sorry, but if you think the cooling on side torso loss will somehow change the need for that you are woefully naive PGI.



For those who haven't seen, patch notes for next tuesday are up and they include Warhammer nerfs


Totally agree, I am not logging in again for as long as this is live. Not even to try dragons. That nerf is complete BS and just shows that PGI has no clue when it comes to balance.

You can't have my stuff, I may need it when they decide to replace the -7 nerf with a +2 structure buff instead which is about what it needs to be near the best clan heavies.

#116 4rcs1ne

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, these nerfs just don't seem well thought out. One of the few (If not the only) IS heavies that could sort of compete with the Clan heavies is getting its structure nerfed, further increasing the Clan and IS disparity.

The Shadowcat is getting all structure quirks removed. Exactly how many people were complaining about shadow cats? Oh, that's right, Noone.

And the Kit Fox, the Kit Fox of all mechs, is getting a nerf ... wow, what a patch.

#117 Kasumi Sumika

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:58 PM

Why my Whammy get whacked. WHY!!!?? Posted Image

Edited by Kasumi Sumika, 20 January 2017 - 08:58 PM.


#118 RestosIII

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 09:16 PM

View PostMatt2496, on 20 January 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

And the Kit Fox, the Kit Fox of all mechs, is getting a nerf ... wow, what a patch.


Don't you know? Those MG Kit Foxes were DECIMATING solo queue and the competitive scene! Posted Image

#119 Cy Mitchell

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 09:25 PM

View PostMatt2496, on 20 January 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

And the Kit Fox, the Kit Fox of all mechs, is getting a nerf ... wow, what a patch.


When they buffed MG last patch they removed most of the ROF quirks from the Mechs that can equip them. A couple got missed. One was the Kit Fox and another was the Viper. People were gloating about that. Why is anyone surprised that they corrected their oversight?

#120 MadIrish

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 09:30 PM

What's a Warhammer?

Edited by MadIrish, 20 January 2017 - 09:30 PM.






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