62 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

Deathlike, on 20 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

If people actually progressed, they wouldn't really be sticking with the Scat (outside of wanting to have fun). The reality is that we're still seeing balance by potato.

pretty much....

Indirectly too. which makes it all the worse since this is at times the silent majority that say nothing, but PGI balances by data instead

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 20 January 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

So...I feel this patch largely missed the balancing targets. Their comment on Engines really seemed off

Yeah, this part:

Quote

There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

...is way off base. Like, have they taken a look at the engines being run by the EBJ, HBR, TBR, and SMN, HBK-IIC, KDK? Note that they are all big. Note how they are all superior 100% to the IS XL.

They essentially just said that IS shouldn't be able to run and benefit from big engines to the same degree as Clans. Because reasons.

[Scout Derek]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Yeah, this part:



...is way off base. Like, have they taken a look at the engines being run by the EBJ, HBR, TBR, and SMN, HBK-IIC, KDK? Note that they are all big. Note how they are all superior 100% to the IS XL.

They essentially just said that IS shouldn't be able to run and benefit from big engines to the same degree as Clans. Because reasons.

As a clanner I say that IS should receive benefits of clan XLs, even if it is a very watered down version of it.

I'd like for good fights too; sometimes people just bring XLs and I take their ST before they do anything. and sometimes I feel really bad for them...

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 20 January 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

They could buff underperforming Mechs to reduce average TTK, or they can nerf OverPerformers to increase average TTK.

What do you think the overall playerbase wants more - lower or higher TTK?

You're making the assumption that any buffs will be to firepower and any nerfs will be to firepower.

Buffs to structure/armor or even agility would increase TTK. Nerfs to structure/armor/agility on the other hand make TTK go down.

That, and even if firepower was buffed, it would have to be pretty large to exceed the current maximum pinnacle builds.


So no, buffs don't automatically make things die faster and nerfs don't automatically make everybody live longer. It's the TYPE and MAGNITUDE of buff or nerf that matters.

Edited by FupDup, 20 January 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Yeah, the Summoner and Cute Fox certainly didn't need nerfs. They're about as rare as a Gold Mech and require a good pilot to produce results. The Warhammer felt only slightly too tanky, but it didn't need much of a nerf at all. The HBK-IIC nerf is laughable and completely unneeded.

Russ and Paul must be playing drinking games again.

[FupDup]

Nightmare1, on 20 January 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

Yeah, the Summoner and Cute Fox certainly didn't need nerfs. They're about as rare as a Gold Mech and require a good pilot to produce results. The Warhammer felt only slightly too tanky, but it didn't need much of a nerf at all. The HBK-IIC nerf is laughable and completely unneeded.

Russ and Paul must be playing drinking games again.

The logic that PGI posted for that Hunchie IIC nerf was really silly. They want a medium mech to be more vulnerable to mobile threats...the whole bloody point of a medium is to be GREAT against mobile threats. That's what they're supposed to be better at than their heavy and assault overlords.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 20 January 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

The logic that PGI posted for that Hunchie IIC nerf was really silly. They want a medium mech to be more vulnerable to mobile threats...the whole bloody point of a medium is to be GREAT against mobile threats. That's what they're supposed to be better at than their heavy and assault overlords.

Well.. ignoring that, it was generally better than its alternatives.

The problem is obviously NOT buffing the alternatives.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 20 January 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

Well.. ignoring that, it was generally better than its alternatives.

The problem is obviously NOT buffing the alternatives.

I like to think of the Hunchie IIC as the Shadow Hawk of 2016 in terms of what it does for the medium class.

I hope it doesn't suffer the same fate as the Shaq Hawk...

[Nightmare1]

FupDup, on 20 January 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

The logic that PGI posted for that Hunchie IIC nerf was really silly. They want a medium mech to be more vulnerable to mobile threats...the whole bloody point of a medium is to be GREAT against mobile threats. That's what they're supposed to be better at than their heavy and assault overlords.

Agreed. The HBK-IIC already suffers from a lack of agility and top speed too.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightmare1, on 20 January 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Agreed. The HBK-IIC already suffers from a lack of agility and top speed too.

Nah, 95 kph is plenty. I don't think it actually suffers in any meaningful way at all, and that's the issue. The torso yaw nerf is actually warranted, and it's in-line with how they used to balance 'Mechs with lots of guns way back when (i.e. BJ-1X vs. BJ-3 torso yaw).

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

Nah, 95 kph is plenty. I don't think it actually suffers in any meaningful way at all, and that's the issue. The torso yaw nerf is actually warranted, and it's in-line with how they used to balance 'Mechs with lots of guns way back when (i.e. BJ-1X vs. BJ-3 torso yaw).

I still think that the Bee Jays don't deserve to have yaws that low (esp. that sad variant with only 80 degrees). They're squishy little mediums. That's an inherent limitation that prevents "lots of guns" from being exploited on it.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 20 January 2017 - 06:24 PM, said:

I like to think of the Hunchie IIC as the Shadow Hawk of 2016 in terms of what it does for the medium class.

I hope it doesn't suffer the same fate as the Shaq Hawk...

The difference is that the Shaqhawk never got quirked towards a purpose. The first round of quirks got many things surpassing it... now it's been irrelevent for as long as quirks had existed.

One would argue that the Shadowhawk would probably be OK w/o quirks assuming everything else was unquirked.. but it would still already be worse than the HBK-IIC-A.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 20 January 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

I still think that the Bee Jays don't deserve to have yaws that low (esp. that sad variant with only 80 degrees). They're squishy little mediums. That's an inherent limitation that prevents "lots of guns" from being exploited on it.

And you are right, they don't. The BJ-1X is essentially the IS equivalent to the Storm Crow, and the Storm Crow gets a ridiculous amount of yaw (130 degrees). And it doesn't even need that much to spread the damage due to its shape, the BJ does.

What else would you do to pull the HBK-IIC in, though? There isn't a whole lot to be done, and I don't necessarily think its equipment is OP so much as the IS stuff is UP.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

What else would you do to pull the HBK-IIC in, though? There isn't a whole lot to be done, and I don't necessarily think its equipment is OP so much as the IS stuff is UP.

I guess I might have a little bias from the Shadow Hawk release days, it was so glorious to see a medium mech that was actually useful and stuff. And not just a low-tonnage filler. I see the Lunchback IIC as a modern-day version of the same concept on steroids.

If heavies like the Mad Cat and Night Gyr are allowed to stay at their current power levels without any fear of being touched, I'm pretty sure that a Hunchie staying untouched isn't going to be any worse than they are.

Besides that, tweaking a lot of IS equipment would probably have an impact here. I don't know if it would 100% make an IS medium fully equal to the Hunch IIC, but it would certainly be a smaller gap at worst...

Edited by FupDup, 20 January 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[Stone Wall]

Prosperity Park, on 20 January 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

They could buff underperforming Mechs to reduce average TTK, or they can nerf OverPerformers to increase average TTK.

What do you think the overall playerbase wants more - lower or higher TTK?

People who play CS Go or Battlefield want lower TTK. It's almost like they should be playing those game instead.

[Nightmare1]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

Nah, 95 kph is plenty. I don't think it actually suffers in any meaningful way at all, and that's the issue. The torso yaw nerf is actually warranted, and it's in-line with how they used to balance 'Mechs with lots of guns way back when (i.e. BJ-1X vs. BJ-3 torso yaw).

*Squints*

...You don't actually run HBKs, do you?

[Y E O N N E]

Nightmare1, on 20 January 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

*Squints*

...You don't actually run HBKs, do you?

I own the whole set.

I learned Mediums on Blackjacks, though. Before quirks, and before Clans. I don't even consider those too slow, not for what they do. If you can keep up with the Clan heavies, you are good.

[Nightmare1]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

I own the whole set.

I learned Mediums on Blackjacks, though. Before quirks, and before Clans. I don't even consider those too slow, not for what they do. If you can keep up with the Clan heavies, you are good.

I've been running HBKs since day one and have always considered them to be a bit slow. A good pilot knows how to get around that, but with all the power creep we have to put up with today, it's tough running one in the current game build. You need skills to survive because your sheer size makes you a major target.

As for the poptarters, there really aren't that many of them in-game. Most of the ones you see are splat or dakka. The Nova makes a better poptarting platform because of its smaller profile and greater agility. It's speed is comparable. Yet the HBK-IIC is the one that gets nerfed.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightmare1, on 20 January 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

I've been running HBKs since day one and have always considered them to be a bit slow. A good pilot knows how to get around that, but with all the power creep we have to put up with today, it's tough running one in the current game build. You need skills to survive because your sheer size makes you a major target.

As for the poptarters, there really aren't that many of them in-game. Most of the ones you see are splat or dakka. The Nova makes a better poptarting platform because of its smaller profile and greater agility. It's speed is comparable. Yet the HBK-IIC is the one that gets nerfed.

I'm not even referring strictly to pop-tarting.

'Mechs like the Blackjack and Hunchback are gun-bags. They operate near the edge of the team to pour fire on an otherwise occupied target. That's even what they do in comps. They harass. And when they don't harass, they commit on a push with everybody else. You don't need to be running near the same speeds that Lights do to do this, not even close. 87.1 kph is perfectly adequate; JJs are more important than speed.

I mean, you can build the IIC for brawl and for that purpose it is perhaps too slow, but that's really a waste of its potential. It doesn't have the durability or geometry for that. The only reason the IS HBK-4SP is taken is because it has unholy levels of durability quirks, else it would suck, too.

[Hit the Deck]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 January 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

...
...is way off base. Like, have they taken a look at the engines being run by the EBJ, HBR, TBR, and SMN, HBK-IIC, KDK? Note that they are all big. Note how they are all superior 100% to the IS XL.

They essentially just said that IS shouldn't be able to run and benefit from big engines to the same degree as Clans. Because reasons.

i read it as they don't want to widen the gap between isXL and STD (particularly on the bigger ones because of the increasingly wider tonnage difference) by making isXL able to survive ST loss.

So they solution is to nerf the cXL further according to PGI.

And that's the problem. I think STD not as a sidegrade to isXL (and the same applies to LFE when it arrives). They are useful on the IS side so their 'Mechs can use the full ST crit slots (they need the space because of their builkier equipment) and only that. The balancing should be done by taking this into account.


EDIT: PGI could have buffed the isXL AND buff the STD if they don't want to widen the gap between isXL and STD by only buffing the isXL. Leave cXL as is. This is one of the most popular player suggestions.

But that may not be viewed as a solution (by them).

Edited by Hit the Deck, 20 January 2017 - 07:45 PM.