48 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 January 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

just this, many feel LFE will replace STD engines,
but would it really matter if IS-XXLs replace IS-XLs?

I'm not concerned because it (XXL) has significant drawbacks.

But it's an experimental tech so it's unlikely that we'll get it.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 January 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

just this, many feel LFE will replace STD engines,
but would it really matter if IS-XXLs replace IS-XLs?

Yes, since that's six less slots to work with on top of what the XL already consumes and, unlike the slots consumed by Endo (which you won't need on XXL 'Mechs), they can't be moved. It leaves six open slots in each side torso, basically precluding the use of ballistics and the packing of lots of heat-sinks for anything other than MedLas boats...which will have more tonnage left over than they know what to do with.

Nothing good comes of XXL for the IS. Clan XXL, occupying only 4 slots per side, is a straight upgrade even against IS XL.

[FupDup]

Also note that the XXL engine has reduced heat efficiency by 10 SHS. So, basically your 10 TruDubs become SHS.

Edited by FupDup, 21 January 2017 - 05:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I was playing with the XXL in RemLab. Question for people who know better:

Does the isXXL take up six slots per ST, or four? RemLab says four, Sarna says six. If it's four, XXL for IS might be useful depending on how hard PGI dives in on the heat mechanic. If it's six, I stick by my post above. Six is too restricting.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

I was playing with the XXL in RemLab. Question for people who know better:

Does the isXXL take up six slots per ST, or four? RemLab says four, Sarna says six. If it's four, XXL for IS might be useful depending on how hard PGI dives in on the heat mechanic. If it's six, I stick by my post above. Six is too restricting.

Last I checked, the rule is twice as much as an XL would. So Clan is 4, IS is 6.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 21 January 2017 - 05:54 PM, said:

Last I checked, the rule is twice as much as an XL would. So Clan is 4, IS is 6.

That's what I thought. RemLab needs to be updated, then, because right now it occupies 4 slots per ST if you select XXL while building an IS 'Mech.

If they want to bump the engine cap on the BJ-1X to 360 (yes pls), I can see a use even for 18-slot isXXL.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 January 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

That's what I thought. RemLab needs to be updated, then, because right now it occupies 4 slots per ST if you select XXL while building an IS 'Mech.

If they want to bump the engine cap on the BJ-1X to 360 (yes pls), I can see a use even for 18-slot isXXL.

I just checked. For some reason, REMLab only counts 8 crits when you're building it, but any sheet it spits out has 12.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 21 January 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

I just checked. For some reason, REMLab only counts 8 crits when you're building it, but any sheet it spits out has 12.

@_@

I looked at the record sheet for the BJ-1X I built and it does indeed show the six extra crits. So it's just the lab portion that's wrong.

Lucky me, I had 4x slots left over in the lab, so 6x isERML + 2x XMPL still fits with 18x DHS, a 360 XXL engine, an XL Gyro, and a Small Cockpit.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 January 2017 - 06:10 PM.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

Lucky me, I had 4x slots left over in the lab, so 6x isERML + 2x XMPL still fits with 18x DHS, an XL Gyro, and a Small Cockpit.

A Small Cockpit, and an XXL? How cruel of you. No space, and the lack of proper shielding will be slowly cooking the mechwarrior in rads.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

Nothing good comes of XXL for the IS. Clan XXL, occupying only 4 slots per side, is a straight upgrade even against IS XL.

for some light mechs it could be good,
a LCT with a 190XXL,SHS, Endo & Max Armor would have, 7.5FreeTons & 22FreeSlots,
(thats with 6 ST crits taken up), that enough for ECM &ERPPC(Arms Stripped) on a LCT-PB,

a RVN with a 275XXL,SHS, Endo & Max Armor would have, 15.5FreeTons & 22FreeSlots,
thats enough for a AC10 with 3.5 Ammo, or an AC20 with 2.5 ammo(RA stripped) on a RVN-4X,

PGI could make the ST slots 5 instead of 6 for balance if need be,
i feel this compromise would help allot but the XXL has some uses,

[Stefan the Usurper Amaris]

Hit the Deck, on 21 January 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

Please don't think that LFE is meant to compete directly with cXL.

It can't/won't and the reason for its intoduction is to give the IS one more engine type so they can make more optimal builds. That will offer some help for the IS to fight against the Clan.

"Designed to mimic the compact profile and light weight of Clan-tech XL Engines, the Light Fusion Engine weighs only 75% of a standard Fusion Engine. While not as dramatic as the 50% weight saving of an XL Engine, the real benefit of the Light Fusion Engine is that while it intrudes into the side torsos of a BattleMech, it takes up the same amount of space as a Clan extra-light engine, allowing a Light Fusion Engine equipped 'Mech to survive the destruction of a side-torso that would cripple an Inner Sphere XL engine equipped 'Mech." -Sarna.net

I would agree it wasnt meant to compete but meant to have the life expectancy of the cXL.

This last part isnt towards you Deck, but what i dont understand is why the need to buff isXLs just because the clans have the upper edge. It's purely technological and the LFE is a step to ALMOST improving. Until then, most units/manufactures would have to accept this as a substitute. With continued R&D, the IS is bound to make a break through. But who's to say the clans wont too in the future? If you dont like isXL engines, dont use them! Play a clan mech. If you dont play clan mechs, then continue to play in STD FEs.

I for one is not afraid to use an isXL. Why? Im used to it, ive played it on TT and ive played here in MWO. It may cost me life/mech but i sure as hell know how to work with it.

Once you guys start to speculate on double XLFE, this is where the nonsense begins because you guys cannot accept them for the characteristics it brings to the table, just stop.

Edited by Stefan the Usurper Amaris, 21 January 2017 - 06:17 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 21 January 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

A Small Cockpit, and an XXL? How cruel of you. No space, and the lack of proper shielding will be slowly cooking the mechwarrior in rads.

No, no, XXL have shielding enough for safe operation!

Also, given the descriptions I see of IS cockpits, I'm fairly certain that a "small cockpit" is what I would consider a "normal" cockpit.

[Tarogato]

What's the point? We end up starved for crits anyways, and we're already at the engine caps for most clan battlemechs. The weight savings of ordinary XL is enough as is. If you start stacking more powerful weapons on mechs at this point, you won't have the space for enough heatsinks to cool them. So XXL seems rather pointless to me.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 January 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

for some light mechs it could be good,
a LCT with a 190XXL,SHS, Endo & Max Armor would have, 7.5FreeTons & 22FreeSlots,
(thats with 6 ST crits taken up), that enough for ECM &ERPPC(Arms Stripped) on a LCT-PB,

a RVN with a 275XXL,SHS, Endo & Max Armor would have, 15.5FreeTons & 22FreeSlots,
thats enough for a AC10 with 3.5 Ammo, or an AC20 with 2.5 ammo(RA stripped) on a RVN-4X,

PGI could make the ST slots 5 instead of 6 for balance if need be,
i feel this compromise would help allot but the XXL has some uses,

I already have 7.5 free tons in a Locust using an XL 180 and both Endo/Ferro. That's not an upgrade, that's a side-grade at best, but more likely a down-grade because the heat is more crippling than the shaved armor and loss of speed on my XL 180 build. And no, that's not enough for ECM and an ERPPC on the LCT-PB since you need 7 tons for the ERPPC and 1.5 tons for the ECM (total 8.5 tons). You have to drop to a 180XXL to get the amount of room you seek. That all said, it's a Locust with a PPC...it's not that great. Ask me how I know. More useful would be 4x MPL/MXPL on a 180 XXL.

Really, it would only be useful if they completely ignore the heat penalty, and only barely. I can functionally replicate 4x MPL by using 3xMPL+2xSL, though, so...meh.

If they want to make cXXL universal and give both sides access to the 14-slot version, then great.

[Metus regem]

Bombast, on 21 January 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

If anything, the Inner Sphere should be getting access to the XXL engine. If you're going to explode anyway, you may as well go fast.

Might as well go fast, and give up HALF your Crit slots in the ST's... As well as generating a boat load of extra heat....

Seriously, 18 crits for the ISXXL engine as well as 2/4/6 heat from standing/walking/running and double JJ heat..... Ugh.... People that want the XXL series really make me wonder how many paint chips they ate as a kid....

[Andi Nagasia]

its that you get more Tonnage with XXL + Endo then Ferro + Endo,
a LCT-PB with a 180XL +3DHS +Endo +Ferro +Max Armor(none in Arms) has about 7.5TonsFree & 8critsFree,
a LCT-PB with a 190XXL +3DHS +Endo +Max Armor(none in Arms) has about 8.5TonsFree & 16critsFree,
in this case the LCT with the XXL goes faster and has more Tonnage & Crits Available,

even if its just for smaller mechs the XXL engine could really halp all lights,
especially ones taking Ballistics(or single Energy(1PPC / 1ERPPC / 1LPL) as its hard to over heat with 1PPC)

[Bombast]

Metus regem, on 21 January 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

Might as well go fast, and give up HALF your Crit slots in the ST's... As well as generating a boat load of extra heat....

Seriously, 18 crits for the ISXXL engine as well as 2/4/6 heat from standing/walking/running and double JJ heat..... Ugh.... People that want the XXL series really make me wonder how many paint chips they ate as a kid....

Example - The Bushwacker.

Weight savings going to Endo-Steel - 2.5 tons
Weight savings going to XXL - 2.5 tons

Crit investment going to Endo-Steel - 14
Crit investment going to XXL - 6

Edited by Bombast, 21 January 2017 - 06:38 PM.

[Snowbluff]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

XLs need ST durability because it's a shortcut to a full kill. STDs only need a little bit to all three torso parts to offset the extra fragility from not being as mobile, and they need even less if you're going to give them an agility booster. What STDs actually need, though, is a cooling booster so you can bring adequate or perhaps even superlative firepower to offset the lack of mobility.

That's the actual balance for how the game plays. What you want is something entirely different, you are trying to create a flavor for the STD. I think that's a misplaced and redundant effort, it has a flavor all its own since it, y'know, survives the loss of an ST.

They still need to be a shortcut afterwards as wel. It rewards skill and game knowledge.

I do want more structure on IS mechs in general to compensate for the deficiency of the STD and XL.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bombast, on 21 January 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Example - The Bushwacker.

Weight savings going to Endo-Steel - 2.5 tons
Weight savings going to XXL - 2.5 tons

Crit investment going to Endo-Steel - 14
Crit investment going to XXL - 6

just this for some mechs XXL + Endo will be better than XL + Endo + Ferro,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 21 January 2017 - 06:40 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Just give IS all of the engines (including Compact) because it won't make the IS practically more powerful than now.

It gives them more toys to play with against the Clan which is always nice.