53 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

They're nerfing it because it's over represented. But they're only swapping structure to armor on a few other mechs to compensate. I doubt everyone is going to start running Dragons.

If they want Dragons to be competitive they need to make drastic changes. Raise it's arm up like in some of the concept art. Give it an additional speed tweak if you want it to be super mobile. Let it drop kick people.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

However, Speed does not make up for bad geometry. Look at the Dragon, one of the fastest Heavies in game, yet also one of the worst because of it's atrocious geometry.

The Dragon has worse hitboxes as it can't roll damage like the Timby can; the Dragon also has IS tech and is 60 tons (thus competing against heavier mechs) in other words that comparison is not a good one.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 January 2017 - 11:18 AM.

[Requiemking]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

The Dragon has worse hitboxes as it can't roll damage like the Timby can; the Dragon also has IS tech and is 60 tons (thus competing against heavier mechs) in other words that comparison is not a good one.

However, the way you wrote what you said made it sound like the Timby's speed was the sole thing that made up for it's deficiencies, which is not the case.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

However, the way you wrote what you said made it sound like the Timby's speed was the sole thing that made up for it's deficiencies, which is not the case.

It is the sole reason for taking it over the newer options though.....which is really only the Night Gyr.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 January 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

My view is like this:

• The best heavy mechs in the game are all OP and should be nerfed. Heavy mechs are the most popular mechs and if there weren't any kind of restrictions in group queue, I wouldn't be surprised to see 12-man teams of only heavies.
  
• The top Clan mechs should be nerfed before the WHM, but the WHM should be nerfed too.
  
• Nerfing structure for the WHM is fine. If the RVN-3L doesn't get any bonus CT or ST structure, why on earth should the WHM have it? There are many mechs that need the structure bonus far more than the WHM. (I accept that the IS heavies need structure quirks to compete with Clan heavies, but Clan heavies should be nerfed anyway)
  
• PGI should have removed some of the stupid weapon quirks before going after the structure quirks. Why on earth should the Warhammer have ballistic quirks? It's an energy + missile platform with MGs. Give the ballistic quirks to the Marauder, Jagermech, Cataphract and Orion, and then focus on not letting those mechs suck so much. (Marauder is already pretty good, but some better ballistic quirks would be cool)

[Snazzy Dragon]

I didn't expect the dragon to have such a high score!

[Coolant]

surveys are opinions, internal data is concrete

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Coolant, on 23 January 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

surveys are opinions, internal data is concrete

How you interpret that data however is not concrete and the source of all poor balance in this game.

[Ultimax]

Tristan Winter, on 23 January 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

• The best heavy mechs in the game are all OP and should be nerfed. Heavy mechs are the most popular mechs and if there weren't any kind of restrictions in group queue, I wouldn't be surprised to see 12-man teams of only heavies

Being the most popular doesn't mean they are the strongest or the best - they have a good overall blend of speed, firepower and armor which makes them popular.

A team full of Assault mechs on the other hand is going to be way more powerful, that much massed firepower and armor works as a type of force multiplacation and there is a tipping point once you have enough both that a team full of heavies vs. a team full of assaults would be pretty lopsided in any kind of straight skirmish type of scenario.


The only reason you don't see more assaults all of the time are:
Tonnage limits in FW
Tonnage limits in group queue
Uncertainty in group queue if choosing an Assault mech will see you be slower than the rest of the team

If those were alleviated, I guarantee you would see way more assault mechs than you currently do.

[Requiemking]

Ultimax, on 23 January 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

[/indent]

Being the most popular doesn't mean they are the strongest or the best - they have a good overall blend of speed, firepower and armor which makes them popular.

A team full of Assault mechs on the other hand is going to be way more powerful, that much massed firepower and armor works as a type of force multiplacation and there is a tipping point once you have enough both that a team full of heavies vs. a team full of assaults would be pretty lopsided in any kind of straight skirmish type of scenario.


The only reason you don't see more assaults all of the time are:
Tonnage limits in FW
Tonnage limits in group queue
Uncertainty in group queue if choosing an Assault mech will see you be slower than the rest of the team

If those were alleviated, I guarantee you would see way more assault mechs than you currently do.

The only Assault mechs you would see are Battlemasters, Kodiaks, and the occasional Mauler. All the others are either too weak, or require far too much teamwork to be effective. Heavies, however, do not require as much teamwork, and most of them carry almost as much firepower as the average Assault mech while being much faster. Tristan Winter was not wrong when he said that Heavies are OP, because in many ways, they are. They are far too versatile, and quirks have had a major hand in that.

Edited by Requiemking, 23 January 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[Ultimax]

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

The only Assault mechs you would see are Battlemasters, Kodiaks, and the occasional Mauler. All the others are either too weak, or require far too much teamwork to be effective. Heavies, however, do not require as much teamwork, and most of them carry almost as much firepower as the average Assault mech while being much faster. Tristan Winter was not wrong when he said that Heavies are OP, because in many ways, they are. They are far too versatile, and quirks have had a major hand in that.

This is total nonsense, most heavies are in no better of a situation.

You should probably go re-look at the list of existing heavies and re-evaluate.

[The6thMessenger]

1453 R, on 23 January 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

Is the Timber Wolf still the best heavy 'Mech in the game? I thought it had fallen largely out of favor with the Ultracomp Overlords in favor of Summoners, Night Gyrs, or (ironically enough) Warhammers as the situation warranted.

Honestly, i didn't enjoyed night gyrs that much. Powerful with all that weapon sure, but really it's not as mobile and would end up as a liability instead.

Like the summoner, Night Gyrs can be made as jump snipers too, but there's a lot more to the game than jump sniping.

[Alex Morgaine]

<------Is still surprised the summoner is op for a change, been mediocre™ for so long I'm still "wtf-oh yeah loyalty pods" whenever someone brings then up.

[dario03]

I think the Timber Wolf is a very good mech. But I don't think its the best heavy for a lot of builds so wouldn't really call it the best heavy in the game. I think it gets over rated a little bit because it is close to the best in lots of different builds so you can see a lot of variety of Timbers doing well. So
Best choice for a new player wanting a heavy that can do everything??? Yes.
Best heavy if you rated every type of build and added up the points??? Probably.
Best heavy for any one kind of play??? I'm thinking no, except maybe if you want a fast poptart with a big alpha.
Best heavy for every kind of play??? No.

Edited by dario03, 23 January 2017 - 02:14 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

dario03, on 23 January 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Except maybe if you want a fast poptart with a big alpha.

With all the TBR can do? Poptart TBR, this build is disgusting.

Now it just needs a highmount 3B left torso, like that 3E A-LT, then it can have high mount dakka.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 23 January 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

With all the TBR can do? Poptart TBR, this build is disgusting.

You are better off with 2 ERPPC/Gauss

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

You are better off with 2 ERPPC/Gauss

I know. But for a total of 3 JJs, it has to forgo that Prime RT. That 3x ERPPC though hitting GH, actually has good convergence.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 23 January 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

With all the TBR can do? Poptart TBR, this build is disgusting.

Now it just needs a highmount 3B left torso, like that 3E A-LT, then it can have high mount dakka.

That ghost heat and less pinpoint damage than the gauss+2PPC build though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 23 January 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

I know. But for a total of 3 JJs.

You can get 3 JJs with 2 ERPPC/Gauss.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 06:28 PM, said:

You can get 3 JJs with 2 ERPPC/Gauss.

Only issue with that is only having 2 tons of gauss ammo if you only strip the empty arm. Guess you could shave the legs and head heavily for an extra ton or a half though. Still, better than bringing 3 ERPPCs.