75 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

Quote

There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

I looked through this statement. I thought this statement has some forms of logical fallacies... but I realized it is really nonsense at best.



Let's say we are comparing apple A and apple B, and trying to choose. Here's the PGI logic:

"We think these apples from country A taste sour, and those apples form country B taste good. We should throw away apples from country A and keep B. However, an orange is even more sour than both of the apples, so we will just keep both of them!"



As I think more and more of this statement, I cannot stop thinking but the whole statement is delusional. Seriously why are we suddenly talking about standard engines when we are talking about XL engines?

And even if we take that statement as it is, what about clan standard engines? They are already absolutely obsolete unless you are trying to do quad gauss on Kodiak. Clan standard engines are completely obsolete for such a long time, yet PGI never tried to balance Clan XL engines and standard engines. Why does suddenly IS XL and IS standard engine balance matter when we are already ignoring half of the equation?

More I try to understand this company, I only feel more dumbfounded. I understand a lot of companies have very weird and terrible company culture that lead to really stupid decisions, but PGI really takes cake despite the fact that PGI is rather a smaller company that should not have such toxic decisions.

[kesmai]

Well Sir, you are just about to encounter alternative facts.

[El Bandito]

Yep. Buff Std engines for both sides, sure, but buff IS XL too! This is a no-brainer.

[Duke Nedo]

I am not entirely convinced that the person that wrote that is aware that clan STD engines exists in MWO. This is just someone who wants cXL to stay better than isXL because otherwise many players that believe that clans should be better than IS may quit spending dollars.

[The Lighthouse]

Duke Nedo, on 24 January 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

I am not entirely convinced that the person that wrote that is aware that clan STD engines exists in MWO. This is just someone who wants cXL to stay better than isXL because otherwise many players that believe that clans should be better than IS may quit spending dollars.

It is from the patch note. So you are saying that PGI does not aware Clan STD engines exist?

....god.

[Duke Nedo]

The Lighthouse, on 24 January 2017 - 03:40 AM, said:

It is from the patch note. So you are saying that PGI does not aware Clan STD engines exist?

....god.

Actually yes. I wouldn't be surprised if Paul forgot about clan battlemechs. Not the slightest. How else can you make such a statement about STDs?

Edited by Duke Nedo, 24 January 2017 - 03:55 AM.

[Deathlike]

I really don't have time to write a comprehensive statement in rebuttal to the comments in the patch notes.. so I'll leave you with this:

[a gaijin]

Okay so it looks like NObody is happy about the series of degrades we are all getting in today's patch, both Clanner and Spheroid.

I guess we'll all just have to power through it for a month or so until the next optimization patch comes out to (hopefully) un-degrade the degrades,

Wishing us all luck, and patience.

[Duke Nedo]

Star Commander Horse, on 24 January 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

Okay so it looks like NObody is happy about the series of degrades we are all getting in today's patch, both Clanner and Spheroid.

Lol, yes... praise the day when the MWO playerbase agrees that something is good or bad. Could mean something.

[Karl Streiger]

OK i see the logic behind.
It is true that a XL that work like a Clan XL for IS would bolster their offensive capacity, i would run again XL on my Zeus adding more weapons on a faster chassis. Of course.

However if a XL change result in "bad" offensive capacity for IS - why is the increased offensive capcaity of a ClanXL vs Clan STD "not bad"

So - what next? Clan STD for all ClanMechs - because offenisve capacity is bad? Should be a thing.
DireWolf 200STD,
Gargoyle 320STD
TimberWolf 300STD.
Nova 200 STD
StormCrow 275 STD
....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 January 2017 - 04:19 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I think one way the statement does make sense, if you look at IS std vs XL that is still an interesting choice to make when building, it's a risk vs reward choice and reducing the risk of IS XL would remove that choice.

However, the only way to make that logic hold water is if you apply it also to clans, in other words you would be arguing that Clan XL should die from 1 side torso loss.

If you think Clan XL should keep it's survivability, and say you want balance, there is simply no sensible way to argue against making the IS XL equally good.

The only way to make sense of the statement as a whole is if you assume the unspoken "We just want to keep clan tech overpowered but won't say it.", which is very worrying if it is actually PGIs position, since it is an absolutely batshit ******** position.

Fortunately pure cluelessness and incompetence is a much more likely explanation, at least that can improve.

[Duke Nedo]

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 04:35 AM, said:

The only way to make sense of the statement as a whole is if you assume the unspoken "We just want to keep clan tech overpowered but won't say it.", which is very worrying if it is actually PGIs position, since it is an absolutely batshit ******** position.

I am more and more worried that this actually is the case. Just look at it historically, clans have been allowed to stay more powerful for like 98% of the time. There was a brief period when IS mechs got powerful range and duration quirks that probably placed IS as the more powerful faction. That was hammered down upon very quickly, and all range bonuses were capped at max 10% for all weapons just in case. PGI has been very responsive to IS OP complaints while allowing clans to stay OP for years in between.

I don't think clanners complain more, but their complaints get a completely different response than the IS complaints do. I.e. quick action. This could very well be "because of lore".

An even worse reason would be that the early clan packages and gold mechs were really really expensive and that these customers are important to keep happy...

[Tristan Winter]

If we give PGI the benefit of the doubt, the basic logic is this:

If we just make IS XL as good as Clan XL, then we fix one problem and create another problem. Or, at the very least, we mitigate one problem and exacerbate another problem. We need to figure out how to solve both problems.

That kind of sentiment makes sense. Because making STD engines a viable choice is a real problem for MWO. Not only because XL engines are now effectively another mandatory C-bill tax for new players, on top of DHS and Endo, but also because eliminating choices of customization makes the mech lab game less interesting. Ideally, SHS vs DHS, Endo vs standard, Ferro vs standard and XL vs standard should all be questions with different answers for different players and different mechs.

And on top of that, it would be interesting to bring MWO slightly closer to the 2012 / 2013 meta of high TTK and slow mechs, as an alternative to the current roflstomp nascar meta with XL engines everywhere. It would be cool if heavy mechs could equip STD engines in order to significantly increase their survivability. Today, you see a lot of people pick something like an XL350 instead of a STD280 because the XL engine provides you both increased survivability in form of mobility and increased firepower. In many cases, there's no real balancing act when picking one or the other. XL engines all the way.

[NeoCodex]

The more I read that statement the less I understand it. Why can't they put it in simple words?

[L3mming2]

The Lighthouse, on 24 January 2017 - 02:29 AM, said:

I looked through this statement. I thought this statement has some forms of logical fallacies... but I realized it is really nonsense at best.



Let's say we are comparing apple A and apple B, and trying to choose. Here's the PGI logic:

"We think these apples from country A taste sour, and those apples form country B taste good. We should throw away apples from country A and keep B. However, an orange is even more sour than both of the apples, so we will just keep both of them!"



As I think more and more of this statement, I cannot stop thinking but the whole statement is delusional. Seriously why are we suddenly talking about standard engines when we are talking about XL engines?

And even if we take that statement as it is, what about clan standard engines? They are already absolutely obsolete unless you are trying to do quad gauss on Kodiak. Clan standard engines are completely obsolete for such a long time, yet PGI never tried to balance Clan XL engines and standard engines. Why does suddenly IS XL and IS standard engine balance matter when we are already ignoring half of the equation?

More I try to understand this company, I only feel more dumbfounded. I understand a lot of companies have very weird and terrible company culture that lead to really stupid decisions, but PGI really takes cake despite the fact that PGI is rather a smaller company that should not have such toxic decisions.

to go furder on your analogy, the 2 options are;

-trow acid all over the clan apple
ore
-add sugar to both the standard and IS XL and add the same sugar to the clan standard wile we are at it

i dont like to trow acid around.. so lets talk sugar.
IMO the IS XL need a side torso buff to anny mech where its equiped eaqual to 25% of that side torso's armor and structure. the standard engine (both clan and is) gets a massive CT buff equal to 50% of the total CT armor and structure (yes thats going to be + 93 structure on a 100t mech's CT )

after this buff's things like ammo/t will ofcource have to be looked at..

[Hit the Deck]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

...
That kind of sentiment makes sense. Because making STD engines a viable choice is a real problem for MWO. Not only because XL engines are now effectively another mandatory C-bill tax for new players, on top of DHS and Endo, but also because eliminating choices of customization makes the mech lab game less interesting. Ideally, SHS vs DHS, Endo vs standard, Ferro vs standard and XL vs standard should all be questions with different answers for different players and different mechs.

And on top of that, it would be interesting to bring MWO slightly closer to the 2012 / 2013 meta of high TTK and slow mechs, as an alternative to the current roflstomp nascar meta with XL engines everywhere. It would be cool if heavy mechs could equip STD engines in order to significantly increase their survivability. Today, you see a lot of people pick something like an XL350 instead of a STD280 because the XL engine provides you both increased survivability in form of mobility and increased firepower. In many cases, there's no real balancing act when picking one or the other. XL engines all the way.

One way to make mechlab minigame more interesting to introduce more engine types. We can do without Compact or XXL for now but LFE should be introduced ASAP.

What they do is open up more build options but remember, player choice is actually not really real if you are competitive because of the nature of the game (PvP) - yes XL will always be the most used on both sides because it's at that optimal spot. What real is that there will be more optimal competitive builds to choose from and this is always a good thing.

Making all engine types absolutely equal to each other is messy and would look bad, at least in my eyes. It's instead preferable to help those 'Mechs which are stuck with less desirable equipment (e.g. AS7-S) when needed.

[Bud Crue]

NeoCodex, on 24 January 2017 - 04:59 AM, said:

The more I read that statement the less I understand it. Why can't they put it in simple words?

I'll translate:

PGI: There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines.

Translation: Some people tweeted Russ about balancing by making IS XL engines perform as well as Clan XL Engines.

PGI: but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

Translation: Because the tweets did not first compliment Russ, PGI, or include a statement of how "Awesome!" or "Sweet!" the new Javelin looks, we will be disregarding these tweets and their suggestions. Furthermore, we will not be commenting on this topic other than to provide this bit of nonsense so that our White Knights can point to this announcement and say "see PGI listens to the community".

That's all I can make out. There may have been something else in there about "we know best" and I may have been thrown by the use of "not currently conducive" as suggesting a potential for someday changing their mind; but in any case PGI to English is always an iffy translation process at best.

[razenWing]

The Lighthouse, on 24 January 2017 - 02:29 AM, said:

I looked through this statement. I thought this statement has some forms of logical fallacies... but I realized it is really nonsense at best.



Let's say we are comparing apple A and apple B, and trying to choose. Here's the PGI logic:

"We think these apples from country A taste sour, and those apples form country B taste good. We should throw away apples from country A and keep B. However, an orange is even more sour than both of the apples, so we will just keep both of them!"



As I think more and more of this statement, I cannot stop thinking but the whole statement is delusional. Seriously why are we suddenly talking about standard engines when we are talking about XL engines?

And even if we take that statement as it is, what about clan standard engines? They are already absolutely obsolete unless you are trying to do quad gauss on Kodiak. Clan standard engines are completely obsolete for such a long time, yet PGI never tried to balance Clan XL engines and standard engines. Why does suddenly IS XL and IS standard engine balance matter when we are already ignoring half of the equation?

More I try to understand this company, I only feel more dumbfounded. I understand a lot of companies have very weird and terrible company culture that lead to really stupid decisions, but PGI really takes cake despite the fact that PGI is rather a smaller company that should not have such toxic decisions.

No, you choose to not understand their decision. There is no logical inconsistency. The truth is, if they made IS XL as good as Clan XL, NOBODY would use STD. That's really what this whole debate is about.

You want to use IS XL. Everyone wants to use IS XL. So this debate is not really about balance. It's about getting what you want.

Well, from the TT and Lore sources, IS mechs just suck donkey balls, plain and simple. Everything can't be everything. What's the point if everyone just made their loadout exactly like a meta Timberwolf? Then what is the point of even having multiple mechs if you just going to repeat the same loadout on everything because everything is exactly like everything else?

And you think IS mechs will be super fair when we give you a 70 ton Warhammer that has 4 ballistic slots instead of max 3 on any Clan heavies, AND give it more speed, durability, and no side check weakness? Give me a f-ing break.

If you want to convince people that somehow you are much better at balancing than PGI, then come up with a proposal. Let's see your brilliant idea of simultaneously not murder the STD engine AND overpowering the IS mechs.

Until then, STFU it's easier to complain than to come up with solutions.

(and before you ask, yes, I have. Search my history to find a potential solution I posted about 3 months back. It's super anti-lore, so yea, kinda run into the same problem. But at least my solution doesn't involve creating a cbill sink and completely murders the Std engine.)

Edited by razenWing, 24 January 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Mcgral18]

razenWing, on 24 January 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

No, you choose to not understand their decision. There is no logical inconsistency. The truth is, if they made IS XL as good as Clan XL, NOBODY would use STD. That's really what this whole debate is about.

You want to use IS XL. Everyone wants to use IS XL. So this debate is not really about balance. It's about getting what you want.

Well, from the TT and Lore sources, IS mechs just suck donkey balls, plain and simple. Everything can't be everything. What's the point if everyone just made their loadout exactly like a meta Timberwolf? Then what is the point of even having multiple mechs if you just going to repeat the same loadout on everything because everything is exactly like everything else?

And you think IS mechs will be super fair when we give you a 70 ton Warhammer that has 4 ballistic slots instead of max 3 on any Clan heavies, AND give it more speed, durability, and no side check weakness? Give me a f-ing break.

If you want to convince people that somehow you are much better at balancing than PGI, then come up with a proposal. Let's see your brilliant idea of simultaneously not murder the STD engine AND overpowering the IS mechs.

Until then, STFU it's easier to complain than to come up with solutions.

(and before you ask, yes, I have. Search my history to find a potential solution I posted about 3 months back. It's super anti-lore, so yea, kinda run into the same problem. But at least my solution doesn't involve creating a cbill sink and completely murders the Std engine.)

If you buff the isXL, it goes without saying the STD gets a buff as well


Clam Battlemechs exist, so PGIs statement is null

[a gaijin]

Duke Nedo, on 24 January 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

Lol, yes... praise the day when the MWO playerbase agrees that something is good or bad. Could mean something.

Maybe...just maybe...something good will happen.
Maybe soon there will be balance in the Force.

Eternal Underdog, on 24 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

In Macintosh warrior online you use standard engines if you can. XL is usless on half the IS mechs.

Siri crap voice recognition detected


And finally, Lore is important, for without it there would be no MWO or upcoming BattleTech games.
But finding that balance in a f2p PvP game is a real mean b*tch!

I still think we have a ways to go before everyone is happy.