135 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

MechWarrior Online balanced 2017, clan xl goes legged speed after side torso loss!

[Dimento Graven]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Knock it off. The two options have the exact same reward; the cXL doesn't offer a single gram of weight savings the iXL doesn't. The risk is different, true, but that's what people are trying to sort out. Snarky memebait serves no one.

You have to factor in EVERY MOMENT of game play post an ST loss on a Clan 'mech too, though.

So yeah, Clans not only get the additional weight (that they can invest in spending on lighter weight, longer reaching, harder hitting weapons, and/or ammo, and/or smaller double heat sinks, and/or a TC, etc. etc. etc.), but they get to keep playing AFTER an ST is gone.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 January 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Knock it off. The two options have the exact same reward; the cXL doesn't offer a single gram of weight savings the iXL doesn't. The risk is different, true, but that's what people are trying to sort out. Snarky memebait serves no one.

There is the extra slot per ST, and larger weapons (no AC20 with XL)

But, that's the big thing, ignoring the death thing


High VS Very High seems accurate

[1453 R]

Johnny Z, on 24 January 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

MechWarrior Online balanced 2017, clan xl goes legged speed after side torso loss!

Make the game awful for Clan players, do nothing to actually close the gap for Sphere players.

Sounds like a typical JohnnyZ suggestion, yep.

the cXL is superior to an iXL after a shoulder blows out. So the iXL ought to be superior prior to that point. It's really a simple idea, Johnny. It has nothing to do with further nerfs to the cXL, though such may come about anyways, and has everything to do with figuring out a proper performance upgrade package for the iXL that allows it to be a greater reward in exchange for its increased risk.

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

You have to factor in EVERY MOMENT of game play post an ST loss on a Clan 'mech too, though.

So yeah, Clans not only get the additional weight (that they can invest in spending on lighter weight, longer reaching, harder hitting weapons, and/or ammo, and/or smaller double heat sinks, and/or a TC, etc. etc. etc.), but they get to keep playing AFTER an ST is gone.

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

There is the extra slot per ST, and larger weapons (no AC20 with XL)

But, that's the big thing, ignoring the death thing


High VS Very High seems accurate

Those are both 'risk' factors. Clan XLs have massively decreased risk, nobody doubts or disagrees with this. They do not have any increased rewards, not if everything else is balanced. If it's not, that's on The Other Stuff, not the engine.

[Dimento Graven]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

Make the game awful for Clan players, do nothing to actually close the gap for Sphere players.

Sounds like a typical JohnnyZ suggestion, yep.

the cXL is superior to an iXL after a shoulder blows out. So the iXL ought to be superior prior to that point. It's really a simple idea, Johnny. It has nothing to do with further nerfs to the cXL, though such may come about anyways, and has everything to do with figuring out a proper performance upgrade package for the iXL that allows it to be a greater reward in exchange for its increased risk.

Those are both 'risk' factors. Clan XLs have massively decreased risk, nobody doubts or disagrees with this. They do not have any increased rewards, not if everything else is balanced. If it's not, that's on The Other Stuff, not the engine.

You sir, are full of excrement.

The cumulative benefit (read: REWARD) of a Clan XL vs. an IS XL is significant.

It's not "THE SAME" because of the differences between the two systems, in total, are not "THE SAME"

[Jay Leon Hart]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

the iXL offers some pre-blowout bonuses that make it stronger than a cXL when it's intact. This is a more interesting route to take, and it's one I wish we could get the forum behind.

This. I like this.

[Johnny Z]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

You sir, are full of excrement.

The cumulative benefit (read: REWARD) of a Clan XL vs. an IS XL is significant.

It's not "THE SAME" because of the differences between the two systems, in total, are not "THE SAME"

He knows that and so does everyone that knows that for Inner Sphere XL the match is over and yet legged speed for clan xl which makes sense and actually does balance the game better is "bad for clan player"...

[1453 R]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

You sir, are full of excrement.

The cumulative benefit (read: REWARD) of a Clan XL vs. an IS XL is significant.

It's not "THE SAME" because of the differences between the two systems, in total, are not "THE SAME"

Take II: Knock it off.

You're talking about the effects of other systems; lighter/tighter Endo/Ferro, smaller DHS, and the like, being an extra 'reward' for the cXL. That is factually incorrect.

There are precisely two differences between a 300iXL and a 300cXL. The cXL takes up two less total slots, and the cXL survives a shoulder blowout. Everything else is tangential. The engines themselves do not provide any additional benefit beyond the slots/survivability thing. The survivability thing is a huge risk mitigation. The iXL, commensurately, should yield a higher reward, which is what Sjorpha and I were going over with things like speed/mobility benefits to iXL designs before everyone started flinging poo again.

But once again, pulling memebait tomf***ery and snarking off for no reason doesn't help. You want to debate the cumulative benefit of Clan technology, then do that. But don't hang every last drop of it on the cXL when that is, as stated, factually in correct.

[Dimento Graven]

Johnny Z, on 24 January 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

He knows that and so does everyone that knows that for Inner Sphere XL the match is over and yet legged speed for clan xl which makes sense and actually does balance the game better is "bad for clan player"...

Yeah, how is "game over" for IS players NOT bad for them, but OH MY GOD FORBID a Clan player move at legged speed is the end of the world them?

Weird.

[1453 R]

Johnny Z, on 24 January 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

He knows that and so does everyone that knows that for Inner Sphere XL the match is over and yet legged speed for clan xl which makes sense and actually does balance the game better is "bad for clan player"...

Shut. UP. Johnny.

A legged Clan player in the match is still in the match. As such, he's still superior to the iXL guy. However, his ability to contribute to the match is severely curtailed and he is, for the most part, not having much fun anymore.

Bad for the Clan player. Not any more balanced for the Sphere player than it is today.

The iXL has higher risk than a Clan XL. It should yield a higher reward. Until the reward is higher for the iXL than the cXL, then no amount of cXL penalty will bring the two acceptably into line.

[Johnny Z]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Shut. UP. Johnny.

A legged Clan player in the match is still in the match. As such, he's still superior to the iXL guy. However, his ability to contribute to the match is severely curtailed and he is, for the most part, not having much fun anymore.

Bad for the Clan player. Not any more balanced for the Sphere player than it is today.

The iXL has higher risk than a Clan XL. It should yield a higher reward. Until the reward is higher for the iXL than the cXL, then no amount of cXL penalty will bring the two acceptably into line.

Your not making sense, step away from the key board. Maybe have a bath and a change of diapers.

[1453 R]

Jay Leon Hart, on 24 January 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

This. I like this.

Thank you. So do I. it feels like the right way to go; the iXL was always about risk/reward management over the STD, losing that flavor would suck. The Clans are built on their hybrid-like XL and can't really lose that without invalidating the whole tech base, but there's no reason the iXL can't perform more strongly in a match than the cXL as a compensation.

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yeah, how is "game over" for IS players NOT bad for them, but OH MY GOD FORBID a Clan player move at legged speed is the end of the world them?

Weird.

You don't listen any better than Johnny does, do you?

No amount of cXL penalty is equivalent to death except for death. People have been harping on that for years now. Forcing a Clan player to be essentially immobilized on ST loss feels rotten for the Clan player - it's a bad play experience for them and makes them wonder why they're bothering. The iXL guy, however, does not get any actual benefit from this change - his engine is still flat inferior to the cXL because his reward for the iXL is equivalent to the cXL reward, but he takes on much greater risk.

Greater risk must be answered with greater reward. Until the iXL is stronger than the cXL before shoulder blowout, then there will be no proper balance between the two.

Make the iXL faster and/or more agile. Give it something that improves its reward. Make it better than a cXL if you can protect those shoulders, while the cXL allows you to be laxer in your defensive driving. That's where balance is, not the "Make all Clan everything SUCK!" idiocy Johnny keeps spouting.

[Dimento Graven]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Take II: Knock it off.

You're talking about the effects of other systems; lighter/tighter Endo/Ferro, smaller DHS, and the like, being an extra 'reward' for the cXL. That is factually incorrect.

There are precisely two differences between a 300iXL and a 300cXL. The cXL takes up two less total slots, and the cXL survives a shoulder blowout. Everything else is tangential. The engines themselves do not provide any additional benefit beyond the slots/survivability thing. The survivability thing is a huge risk mitigation. The iXL, commensurately, should yield a higher reward, which is what Sjorpha and I were going over with things like speed/mobility benefits to iXL designs before everyone started flinging poo again.

But once again, pulling memebait tomf***ery and snarking off for no reason doesn't help. You want to debate the cumulative benefit of Clan technology, then do that. But don't hang every last drop of it on the cXL when that is, as stated, factually in correct.

The historic insistence on ignoring the cumulative systemic affects of EVERYTHING the Clans get vs. what is NOT equivalently given to the IS has been the whole core of WHY we've had 3 to 4 years of balance travesty.

The naked Clan chassis, no engine installed STARTS OFF with an 8 slot 4 ton advantage with all the free CASE that are embedded in Clan 'mechs.

Add the extra TWO slots of the smaller XL, that survives an ST loss, PLUS, the random number of slots saved with smaller double heat sinks, plus all the other smaller systems, and the Clan 'mechs typically enjoy a SLOT reward, for simply choosing to pilot a Clan 'mech.

Add on top of that the weight savings, add on top of that the range benefits, add on top of that the damage benefits.

It's all cumulative and you really can't balance anything in this game in a vacuum. You just can't.

You can wish it away, and stick your fingers in your ears, stomp your feet, and scream "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO" all you want, but it doesn't eliminate the actual reality of the situation we play this game in.

(NOTE: Where capitalization occurs it is for emphasis.)

But at the very least, the most unequivocally piece of imbalance MUST be addressed:

In a Clan XL, lose a side torso, you're still playing.
In an IS XL, lose a side torso, and you're sitting there watching people playing.

It is a REWARD for the Clan player, NOT ONLY because his risk is INCREDIBLY less than the IS player, and the rewards are ENHANCED by so many other Clan systems, BUT ALSO BECAUSE PART OF THAT REWARD IS WHEN SHOOTING AT IS PLAYERS, AND TAKING OUT AN ST WITH AN IS XL EQUIPPED 'MECH, THEY GET A KILL AND TAKE AN ENEMY OFF THE BOARD. Unlike the IS, where taking out a side torso on a Clan XL equipped 'mech, you more than probably STILL have someone shooting back at you.

If you can't acknowledge these FACTS, then you're proselytizing, not debating.

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

...

A legged Clan player in the match is still in the match. As such, he's still superior to the iXL guy. However, his ability to contribute to the match is severely curtailed and he is, for the most part, not having much fun anymore.

Bad for the Clan player. Not any more balanced for the Sphere player than it is today.

So the dead IS player is having 'fun' while dead?

Really?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 January 2017 - 02:17 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

...

You don't listen any better than Johnny does, do you?

I'm listening to what you're saying. But you're not saying what you apparently THINK you are.

Quote

No amount of cXL penalty is equivalent to death except for death. People have been harping on that for years now. Forcing a Clan player to be essentially immobilized on ST loss feels rotten for the Clan player - it's a bad play experience for them and makes them wonder why they're bothering.

...

Forcing the IS player to be ACTUALLY dead on ST loss feels "OK" for the IS player, and the dead IS player watching the LIVE Clan player pissing and moaning about being slower after his ST loss is NOT having a bad play experience??!?!?!?!!?

So the ONLY play experience that matters is the Clan pilot's?!?!?!?!?!

Quote

...

That's where balance is, not the "Make all Clan everything SUCK!" idiocy Johnny keeps spouting.

So IS dying to an ST loss is "NOT SUCK", but it making a Clan move more slowly on an ST loss "IS SUCK"?!?!?!!?!?!??!?

Your proposition that you want balance AS LONG AS, as soon as the IS loses their ST with an XL equipped, they're dead, but DON'T YOU DARE DO SQUAT TO THE CLAN!!!

Uh huh... Riiiiiiiiiight...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 January 2017 - 02:15 PM.

[Johnny Z]

So Clan XL goes legged speed on side torso loss next update?

[Sjorpha]

Dimento Graven and Johnny Z, you are both not listening to what 1453 R is saying.

You both act as if he is the one defending clan superiority, but in this case it is the opposite.

What he is trying to explain to you is that Johnny Zs suggestion of making Clan mechs go legged speed after ST loss is NOT ENOUGH to balance the engines, no penalty can ever be enough because no penalty can=death. Ok? But a penalty can still be severe enough to feel frustrating to play with for clanners. Therefore, any penalty based suggestion to balance IS vs Clan XL is a loss/loss proposition: It's a loss for IS because it's not enough to balance their engines, it's a loss for clan because it's going to suck to play with that even though it's still superior. Do you get this now?

He is suggesting a BIGGER CHANGE, that actually balances the engine. A buff to the IS XL prior to destruction that makes it superior enough up until that point that it will balance out performance wise with the clan ST survival.

HE is the one asking for a big enough change in this case, while Johnny Z is suggesting a type of change that is BY DEFINITION insufficient because no penalty in the whole world could ever accomplish being equal to death.

Jesus cockslapping mother of disney...

[1453 R]

Dimento, you're being deliberately obtuse. Please read carefully. I'm making a point you are either deliberately missing in your JohnnyZ-like hatred of all things Clan, or your goat is so up you're not understanding what's being said.

You're conflating the cXL 'reward' in a risk/reward analysis for the two engine types with "EVERY ADVANTAGE OF THE ENTIRE CLAN TECH BASE".

That's not hot it works.

The engines are the engines. Other stuff is balanced elsewhere. If you want to point to something in the engines and say "this is being left strong/weak to help balance [X] weak/strong factor elsewhere in the tech base", then you need to make that claim separately than saying "the cXL has a HUGE reward, much higher than the iXL!" Because that statement - that singular, naked claim - is. F***ing. Incorrect. And if people put forth balance proposals based on that incorrect claim, their balance proposals will be off and require adjustment, or even end up completely nonviable.

An iXL provides fifty percent weight savings for the 'Mech, at the cost of six extra critical slots and a combat-kill vulnerability to shoulder blowouts.

A cXL provides fifty percent weight savings to the 'Mech at the cost of four extra critical slots and decreased performance after shoulder blowout.

The two engines provide the exact same advantage - more weight. One has a massively decreased cost - decreased performance, not death, and a slightly smaller footprint. The engine with the increased cost should provide an increased advantage. This advantage should be an advantage, not simply a crappy form of mitigation for its cost (i.e. increased structure). Personally, as of right now, I favor a Summoner-ish speed bonus and a ~20-points-more mobility boost for the iXL as a beginning point of discussion, as doing so grants the iXL an undeniable edge on the battlefield that allows good pilots to better mitigate the iXL's weakness (better/faster twisting) whilst allowing them to try and leverage the actual advantage their increased speed/mobility gives them

Increasing the cXL's cost, i.e. Johnny's dumb*ss "LEGGED MOVEMENT FOR SHOULDER BLOWOUT BECAUSE I HATE CLANZ!" nonsense, does not make for a better play experience for the Inner Sphere pilot. That guy still dies, and his engine still performs exactly the same as the cXL guy who doesn't die when his shoulder blows out. The Clan player's experience is degraded for no benefit - overall tech balance is not better, no one gains, the iXL is still strictly inferior to the cXL. It. Is. Not. A. Correct. Solution. No one's play experience improves with this change.

You fix things like integrated C.A.S.E. on Clan 'Mechs by fixing integrated C.A.S.E. on Clan 'Mechs. I don't know why that's such a bugbear for you, but it has nothing to do with engine balancing. Engine balancing is its own thing. it has nothing to do with C.A.S.E. or Ferro or DHS or anything else. Those are separate issues requiring their own attention.

Does that clear things up?

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

[snip]

THANK YOU, Sjorpha. Lordamighty, I didn't think it was that difficult a concept ...

Edited by 1453 R, 24 January 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Jesus cockslapping mother of disney...

I may have a new favourite insult...

[Dimento Graven]

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Dimento Graven and Johnny Z, you are both not listening to what 1453 R is saying.

You both act as if he is the one defending clan superiority, but in this case it is the opposite.

What he is trying to explain to you is that Johnny Zs suggestion of making Clan mechs go legged speed after ST loss is NOT ENOUGH to balance the engines, no penalty can ever be enough because no penalty can=death. Ok? But a penalty can still be severe enough to feel frustrating to play with for clanners. Therefore, any penalty based suggestion to balance IS vs Clan XL is a loss/loss proposition: It's a loss for IS because it's not enough to balance their engines, it's a loss for clan because it's going to suck to play with that even though it's still superior. Do you get this now?

I get what he thinks he's saying, and you've effectively said the same thing:

Don't slow down Clans, and make sure the IS still dies.

It is EXACTLY what he's saying.

Quote

He is suggesting a BIGGER CHANGE, that actually balances the engine. A buff to the IS XL prior to destruction that makes it superior enough up until that point that it will balance out performance wise with the clan ST survival.

HE is the one asking for a big enough change in this case, while Johnny Z is suggesting a type of change that is BY DEFINITION insufficient because no penalty in the whole world could ever accomplish being equal to death.

Jesus cockslapping mother of disney...

Fine, if you can define a "change" to the IS XL that garuntees the IS has a BETTER chance of blowing away the entire CT, or BOTH ST's of a Clan 'mech BEFORE the Clan 'mech can blow away a SINGLE IS ST, we can talk.

So far, I ain't seeing anything coming close to that...

[Johnny Z]

This along with standard engine buffs balances the two techs quite well, while leaving the lore in tact and the edge for easy mode players.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 January 2017 - 02:26 PM.