135 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Did you think they MIGHT not have "fixed" the instant dead ST lose is because they are going to add the LFE for IS come this summer?

[Brenden]

CK16, on 24 January 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Did you think they MIGHT not have "fixed" the instant dead ST lose is because they are going to add the LFE for IS come this summer?

What is LFE?

[Bombast]

Brenden, on 24 January 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

What is LFE?

Light Fusion Engine. 75% of the weight of IS standard engines (XL is 50%) and only has 2 crit slots in each side torso.

[Battlemaster56]

Brenden, on 24 January 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

What is LFE?

Designed to mimic the compact profile and light weight of Clan-tech [/color]XL Engines], the Light Fusion Engine weighs only 75% of a standard Fusion Engine. While not as dramatic as the 50% weight saving of an XL Engine, the real benefit of the Light Fusion Engine is that while it intrudes into the side torsos of a BattleMech, it takes up the same amount of space as a Clan extra-light engine, allowing a Light Fusion Engine equipped 'Mech to survive the destruction of a side-torso that would cripple anInner Sphere XL engine equipped 'Mech.

Their ya go.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 24 January 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Bombast]

Also, yes, LFE is probably coming, but I don't think thats why they didn't 'fix' the IS XL.

[WolvesX]

Why not make all parts viable to use?

STD for tanks (with bonus armor / structur for all components like +25% to all / Clan +15% (gues a guess))

XL for arty / support / DD / lights (as it is)

LE for mixed

Edited by WolvesX, 24 January 2017 - 08:21 AM.

[Brenden]

Battlemaster56, on 24 January 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Designed to mimic the compact profile and light weight of Clan-tech [/color]XL Engines], the Light Fusion Engine weighs only 75% of a standard Fusion Engine. While not as dramatic as the 50% weight saving of an XL Engine, the real benefit of the Light Fusion Engine is that while it intrudes into the side torsos of a BattleMech, it takes up the same amount of space as a Clan extra-light engine, allowing a Light Fusion Engine equipped 'Mech to survive the destruction of a side-torso that would cripple anInner Sphere XL engine equipped 'Mech.

Their ya go.

Bombast, on 24 January 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Light Fusion Engine. 75% of the weight of IS standard engines (XL is 50%) and only has 2 crit slots in each side torso.

You know that wouldn't be a bad idea. Since we're going to be getting 3060 tech during the summer, maybe they could add it in a Beta and see how it compares?

[Sjorpha]

Well, if LFE has no penalties when losing a ST it might improve balance a little bit on some chassis.

Still inferior to Clan XL though, and it doesn't help balancing the other engines vs CLan XL either.

IS standard, LFE and XL is actually fairly well balanced against each other, the base problem is that the Clan XL is overpowered compared to all 3 of them. Adding LFE doesn't change that, so we will still be left with exactly the same problem as now.

[Bombast]

Brenden, on 24 January 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

You know that wouldn't be a bad idea. Since we're going to be getting 3060 tech during the summer, maybe they could add it in a Beta and see how it compares?

It compares badly. A lot of people seem to think the LFE will replace the XL, but it wont. What it will do is replace the Standard engine in all but a handful of builds (The one's that need all 12 ST crits), while leaving the XL builds the same because those mechs NEED that tonnage to compete.

Like most of the Inner Sphere's 'Light' Solution (LFE, Light Ferro, Endo Composite), LFE is a half-assed solution that's novel and has a few uses, but ultimately makes very little difference to the game as a whole. It should be added, I think, to give the few mechs that would use it the help they need, but people shouldn't expect it to change the nature of Inner Sphere/Clan tech divide.

[CK16]

Well....there is one way imo to balance things out a bit...in TT they were not to unbalanced cause RNG hits....thus should MWO go to a cone of fire when moving ect and require aim time to get super pin point shots?

[process]

In the grand scheme of things, I think the IS engines are the least of our problems.

LFEs fit nicely between the high-risk-high-reward IS XL, and the supposedly tanky IS STD. The IS STD should get a buff, since it's being triple penalized: slower, fewer weapons, and fewer free heatsink crit slots. Also, zombie mode is highly overrated and not useful in a Clan mech world. Giving it something like extra tankiness or heat dissipation seems like the first step and a no-brainer.

As far as Clan XL vs IS engines, that's a completely separate discussion.

[Dimento Graven]

CK16, on 24 January 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Did you think they MIGHT not have "fixed" the instant dead ST lose is because they are going to add the LFE for IS come this summer?

No, absolutely not.

PGI has never displayed that much forethought in their design decisions.

The possibility of adding "future tech" to the game has pretty much been a non-starter for them for the past 5 years. It's only until just before today's patch that ANY positive mention of it has been made.

So no.

From my perspective the production management team have been stumbling from one thing to the next. The only real 'long term' forethought done is on which 'mechs and 'mech packs to release.

Hence inverse kinetics being a thing, then not, then being a thing, then not... Heat affects table being conditioned on Energy Draw, oh wait, we decided we don't like Energy Draw... It really feels like they're just pin-balling around.

[Hit the Deck]

CK16, on 24 January 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Did you think they MIGHT not have "fixed" the instant dead ST lose is because they are going to add the LFE for IS come this summer?

Going to LFE from isXL for durability reason would be bad because LFE is not the solution for isXL vs cXL problem! LFE does give you two more crit slots

We want to have LFE to see if there would be more optimal builds using it instead of STD.

[1453 R]

iXL should be fixed independently of the Light Fusion Engine, but by the same token the iXL fix shouldn't invalidate the Light Fusion Engine. As much as people just absolutely hate to hear it, the iXL fix needs to not be "don't die on ST blowout". It's gotta get something else.

The LFE should come in and avoid any penalties for shoulder blowout. Lose a shoulder, keep on truckin' no problem. Original release Clan XL performance profile, to account for being much heavier than an equivalent i/cXL. The cXL currently suffers some pretty harsh penalties and will either need to suffer harsher ones, or we'll need to find the right puzzle-piece fix for the iXL to offset the shoulder blowout imbalance.

And Standards should also be included in the list. Some folks propose extensive durability bonuses for STD-engine 'Mechs, as a means of further augmenting their role as Tank 'Mech Engines. Some folks are thinking big cooling boosts, to offset the weight penalty of a STD somewhat and allow STD engine 'Mechs to make up somewhat for their lack of armaments by not needing so many heat sinks. As an infamous little meme girl once said:



Apply to both the cSTD and iSTD since the two engines are otherwise identical - cSTD has no benefits whatsoever over an iSTD. The LFE acts like a release cXL that saves less weight, the existing cXL continues to survive shoulder blowout at the cost of severe performance penalties, the iXL offers some pre-blowout bonuses that make it stronger than a cXL when it's intact. This is a more interesting route to take, and it's one I wish we could get the forum behind.

[Hit the Deck]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

iXL should be fixed independently of the Light Fusion Engine, but by the same token the iXL fix shouldn't invalidate the Light Fusion Engine.
...

It can't really invalidate LFE since LFE has 2 crits less (10 slots on each of your ST instead of 9).

The main reason for choosing isXL, LFE, and STD is actually because of crit slots and weight concerns.

[Sjorpha]

1453 R, on 24 January 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

iXL should be fixed independently of the Light Fusion Engine, but by the same token the iXL fix shouldn't invalidate the Light Fusion Engine. As much as people just absolutely hate to hear it, the iXL fix needs to not be "don't die on ST blowout". It's gotta get something else.

The LFE should come in and avoid any penalties for shoulder blowout. Lose a shoulder, keep on truckin' no problem. Original release Clan XL performance profile, to account for being much heavier than an equivalent i/cXL. The cXL currently suffers some pretty harsh penalties and will either need to suffer harsher ones, or we'll need to find the right puzzle-piece fix for the iXL to offset the shoulder blowout imbalance.

I agree completely, the LFE should have 0 penalties and the fix to IS XL should preferably not be ST survival because sameness is boring.

So what could the IS XL thing be that is equally strong to ST survival.

Simply being faster? Seems to fit the bill, higher risk and higher reward than Clan XL. But very anti-canon and probably too controversial.

Extra structure? I think this is a pretty boring solution, because it's very similar in function to surviving a ST loss, so it suffers from the sameness issue.

Very significant agility buffs? I like this one, because going faster might be a bit too controversial, but significantly superior agility is probably acceptable to most people, and it would give another kind of durability from Clan XL through avoiding damage rather than surviving it. This is my favorite solution so far.

That leaves the standard, how to not obslete? And how to make worth it on clan battlemechs. Here I think structure buffs fit much better. Make standard engine mechs super duper tanky, like double all structure or something.

It's important to note that whatever the buff you give to IS XL and standard, it can't be dependent on engine size because Clan XL ST survival isn't dependent on engine size.

Edited by Sjorpha, 24 January 2017 - 08:45 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Bombast, on 24 January 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

It compares badly. A lot of people seem to think the LFE will replace the XL, but it wont. What it will do is replace the Standard engine in all but a handful of builds (The one's that need all 12 ST crits), while leaving the XL builds the same because those mechs NEED that tonnage to compete.

Like most of the Inner Sphere's 'Light' Solution (LFE, Light Ferro, Endo Composite), LFE is a half-assed solution that's novel and has a few uses, but ultimately makes very little difference to the game as a whole. It should be added, I think, to give the few mechs that would use it the help they need, but people shouldn't expect it to change the nature of Inner Sphere/Clan tech divide.

True that.

I think on my favorite JM6 builds, dual gauss, dual MLs. In that build I have to have an IS XL equipped because it's really not possible to equip a standard engine and have any meaningful speed, ammo, and armor. So it's a heavy 'mech with two bombs strapped to its arms, with an explody XL engine waiting for an ST to be taken out for it to be game over.

I really can't think of a way to make it work any better with LFE.

There's just too much weight loss.

Maybe if I could play with it in Smurfy's I could figure it out, but, honestly I don't see it making meaningful changes to that particular build.

Now... The 4 AC2 version of the JM6, there might be some options...

[Dimento Graven]

Sjorpha, on 24 January 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

...

Simply being faster? Seems to fit the bill, higher risk and higher reward than Clan XL. But very anti-canon and probably too controversial.

...

Very significant agility buffs? I like this one, because going faster might be a bit too controversial, but significantly superior agility is probably acceptable to most people, and it would give another kind of durability from Clan XL through avoiding damage rather than surviving it. This is my favorite solution so far.

...

These could work if you made the agility/speed buffs scale with the size of the engine, or 'mech's tonnage.

Otherwise you'd have IS lights that were blisteringly fast (even compared to current speeds), and/or laws-of-physics-breaking agile.

We don't need a fresh wave of super powered IS lights running around.

It's not like it's not already overly difficult enough to kill a Locust piloted by a skilled player...

[Felicitatem Parco]

CK16, on 24 January 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Did you think they MIGHT not have "fixed" the instant dead ST lose is because they are going to add the LFE for IS come this summer?

No, I think they still leave you dead by ST loss because MUH LORE!!!! How many neckbeards would cry out loud if PGI altered the base characteristics of equipment like that?

Remember, this game (3050 BattleTech) is based on imbalanced teams with imbalanced equipment. PGI has used Quirks and altering weapon performance to try and balance it out, but there are too many people who would be offended if PGI decided to make the equipment and tech actually comparable - they want there to be glaring disparities and are happy with cXL deathproof engines while the IS XL is a deathtrap. Oddly enough, these are the people who create the justification for massive IS quirks.

Ya read that? If you want cXL Deathproof engines and IS XL deathtraps, then you support Uberquirks to the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 24 January 2017 - 08:49 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Prosperity Park, on 24 January 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

...

Oddly enough, these are the people who create the justification for massive IS quirks.

Ya read that? If you want cXL Deathproof engines and IS XL deathtraps, then you support Uberquirks to the Inner Sphere.

The way I interpret that is, these Clantards are creating the reasons for IS uber quirks.

If my interpretation is correct, then I can't say I find any fault in your logic.