64 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

In the light of recent information that PGI is going to add new weapons, perhaps one of them is Mech Mortar.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mech_Mortar
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mech_Mortar/1
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mech_Mortar/2
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mech_Mortar/4
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mech_Mortar/8

Basically non-homing direct-or-indirect fire missile weapons. Think of it like LRMs, but it's not homing. (seriously lol), but they are NOT shot down by AMS.

Personally, LRMs are already hard to land, and then we have this joker that doesn't home in actively moving targets. It's like when LRMs fly on empty ground when the enemy breaks locks -- except it's like this all the time.

We can land non-homing ACs PRECISELY because we can lead them, can we lead Mech Mortar? Maybe? But how would that work? how would we lob these projectiles on low cover? If there's a wall in front of you, how can you target the area behind? Should it be shot with the reticle upwards?

If we were to use the LRM pathfinding mechanics, then the projectile would lag after all it doesn't home so the shell will only land on the previous position of the target.

And there i would like to present how it would work, cause sure as hell it won't work with our current range-finding, projectile convergence thingy mechanics. To compensate with the nature of Mech Mortars, each will deal 2 damage at direct hit but will have diminishing splash-damage with regards to proximity of the blast, but not the distance travelled of the projectile. That means it's able to hit multiple mechs all at once.

1.) Battlegrid-exclusive weapon - One would need to bring up the battlegrid, and then click from there to fire the Mech Mortars. Like Call of Duty and their Mortar Team and or Napalm Strike, and or Cobra Strike. etc.

2.) Variable projectile speed - One can "charge" the mech mortar to ascertain the desired projectile speed so that players can control how it arcs. A tracing beam invisible to the enemy should be always present to the allies as the mech mortar is charged.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 25 January 2017 - 04:01 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Have you ever played Battlezone? The one from 1998? That's how they should work.

[Monkey Lover]

lol i would love mortars so much, it would break up murder balls and would stop people from going to the same place every game

[Johnny Z]

2 spots for things like mortars, scout mech, mine layer or other auxiliary units like MechCommander had would be awesome. MechCommander had 3 lances and 2 auxiliary units for a full drop.

I mean imagine seeing a mine layer vehicle driving around. A big deal in this game with only mechs for so long.
It would have to be quite large and well armored to fit the surroundings but it could be done. All the guys using steering wheel for mechs will feel right at home with an actual vr cockpit with steering wheel.

Or an SPG acting as artillery.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 January 2017 - 10:30 PM.

[Guile Votoms]

I can see mortars and artillery cannons work like grenade launchers.
Meaning they would be projectiles shot in an arc causing area-of-effect damage.

The should go almost straight until they reach optimal range (like autocannons) but after that fall fairly quickly.
To shoot them in an arc you'd have to aim high and evaluate where they'd hit, which would definitely take a lot of practise.

It would add a whole new level of depth to the game by being able to shoot over cover and hit many targets at once but complicated enough to use to not become abusable.

Edited by Guile Votoms, 24 January 2017 - 11:43 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

I hope they would use the explosion animations that standard artillery / airstrike uses. Those explosions are just so very pretty!

[El Bandito]

Much will depend on the explosion radius and delivery time, cause players tend to nascar a lot and are constantly in motion.

[DovisKhan]

Artillery - *** YEAH

That's my only sentiment about artillery, It would be a 100% must buy for me if a mech with an arty system came out

[Shiroi Tsuki]

This exactly the kind of weapon I've been looking for in years.

[Idealsuspect]

Monkey Lover, on 24 January 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

lol i would love mortars so much, it would break up murder balls and would stop people from going to the same place every game

Yea and we will have same potatoes who bring lrms and are useless with who will take mortar and still be useless ...


And some goods pilots instead have gauss will take mortars and farm badders. Very smart for the game.
http://steamcharts.com/app/342200#6m

[Pjwned]

I think it could be cool, they could be like ballistic LRMs except with practically non-existent spread and much faster projectile speed.

The main problem is how mortars would be aimed, because I think it would require some sort of new adjustable aim mechanics to make it worth having, and while I'm not really against that I kind of doubt it will happen.

[Y E O N N E]

Or we can just eyeball it and aim up to lob the shell...

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Or we can just eyeball it and aim up to lob the shell...

That's not helpful at all. I'm thinking about the details like how you know how far the shot will go, how it could actually be used to hit indirect targets with no lock-on, etc.

If it just works like dumb fired LRMs, meaning it only goes where your cursor points to, then nobody would use it.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 25 January 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

That's not helpful at all. I'm thinking about the details like how you know how far the shot will go, how it could actually be used to hit indirect targets with no lock-on, etc.

If it just works like dumb fired LRMs, meaning it only goes where your cursor points to, then nobody would use it.

It is plenty helpful, and all you need. Fire the weapon , get used to its trajectory and velocity, and let your hand-eye coordination do the rest. Anything more is unnecessary complexity.

And no, it wouldn't be like LRMs. You would have to aim up to define your angle. Unless it's really close , firing straight would see the shell plow into the ground before reaching the target.

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

It is plenty helpful, and all you need. Fire the weapon , get used to its trajectory and velocity, and let your hand-eye coordination do the rest. Anything more is unnecessary complexity.

And no, it wouldn't be like LRMs. You would have to aim up to define your angle. Unless it's really close , firing straight would see the shell plow into the ground before reaching the target.

That would limit its aiming capabilities heavily and make it next to impossible to hit a target in cover because the shot would land far behind them in nearly every case, as well as making it really difficult to use properly in general.

You need to be able to adjust the angle for any given range or else mortars would just not be used.

That's why I said aiming would be a problem.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 25 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

That would limit its aiming capabilities heavily and make it next to impossible to hit a target in cover because the shot would land far behind them in nearly every case, as well as making it really difficult to use properly in general.

You need to be able to adjust the angle for any given range or else mortars would just not be used.

That's why I said aiming would be a problem.

None of what you said is true.

Its aiming capabilities are limited to how high you can aim; if you place it in the arm, you get the ability to execute plunging fire attacks. Aiming will only be an issue for the unpracticed and any assist taking the calculation work out of the player's hands is taking the fun out of using the weapon at all.

I've already played many games with mortars using the "aim up, doofus" mechanic and they were quite effective. They aren't precision weapons, and nor should they be made into such. They are AoE and that role should be embellished. They are not useful otherwise.

The bigger factors with MMs will be projectile velocity, damage radius, and damage amount, not aiming. I guarantee that anybody who has used grenade launchers in other games can get the aiming part down.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 January 2017 - 09:18 AM.

[Johnny Z]

LRM's do cater to a different play style. Mortar would do the same thing. But a couple new spots on the drop deck for this would be ideal.

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

None of what you said is true.

Its aiming capabilities are limited to how high you can aim; if you place it in the arm, you get the ability to execute plunging fire attacks. Aiming will only be an issue for the unpracticed

So you're taking into account the extremely limited torso pitch angle then, especially compared to other games? Not to mention what a pain in the *** it would be to fire a shot at a particularly high angle because of the way the HUD works, and how torso mounted mortars would be far less useful which is pretty damn lame.

Because it doesn't seem like you're considering that.

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and any assist taking the calculation work out of the player's hands is taking the fun out of using the weapon at all.

That's not necessarily true at all, especially if the idea was to adjust the angle manually. There would maybe be some assist to help you determine where the shot would land after adjusting it yourself, but that's not "taking the fun out of using the weapon at all."

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I've already played many games with mortars using the "aim up, doofus" mechanic and they were quite effective. They aren't precision weapons, and nor should they be made into such. They are AoE and that role should be embellished. They are not useful otherwise.

That's not just a given factor, especially since there's no indication that's how it works in Tabletop, so I find it pretty annoying & stupid when all you have to say is "HUH DURR HLURF JUST AIM UP STUPID" and then leave out crucial information like that.

There are ways to make it a precision weapon, which is what I had in mind but I guess that's not what you had in mind and I'm supposed to read your thoughts to determine that.

Quote

The bigger factors with MMs will be projectile velocity, damage radius, and damage amount, not aiming. I guarantee that anybody who has used grenade launchers in other games can get the aiming part down.

Other games also feature different engagement ranges, map sizes, and mostly different terrain in general, and additionally in this game* targets vary wildly in speed & size.

There's also a question of whether it would be balanced to make it consistently deal splash damage, since SRMs used to deal splash damage and that obviously got out of hand.

I'm considering things that make combat in MWO more unique, while you seem to be ignoring (or heavily understating) those factors just because it works in other games that play very differently.

Edited by Pjwned, 25 January 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

None of what you said is true.

Its aiming capabilities are limited to how high you can aim; if you place it in the arm, you get the ability to execute plunging fire attacks. Aiming will only be an issue for the unpracticed and any assist taking the calculation work out of the player's hands is taking the fun out of using the weapon at all.

I've already played many games with mortars using the "aim up, doofus" mechanic and they were quite effective. They aren't precision weapons, and nor should they be made into such. They are AoE and that role should be embellished. They are not useful otherwise.

The bigger factors with MMs will be projectile velocity, damage radius, and damage amount, not aiming. I guarantee that anybody who has used grenade launchers in other games can get the aiming part down.

Not sure how battlezone handled it, but are we basically talking about making it like Long Toms from MW4 or your typical grenade launcher from an FPS which has trajectories (but probably slower velocity)?

Pjwned, on 25 January 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

So you're taking into account the extremely limited torso pitch angle then, especially compared to other games? Not to mention what a pain in the *** it would be to fire a shot at a particularly high angle because of the way the HUD works, and how torso mounted mortars would be far less useful which is pretty damn lame.

So wait, you don't think putting a weapon in the arm should actually be incentivized for once?

Pjwned, on 25 January 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

That's not necessarily true at all, especially if the idea was to adjust the angle manually. There would maybe be some assist to help you determine where the shot would land after adjusting it yourself, but that's not "taking the fun out of using the weapon at all."

Actually it is taking the fun out of learning how to use a weapon when you have assists, it's not like we have something in here that tells you how much to lead against a target.

[Pjwned]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

So wait, you don't think putting a weapon in the arm should actually be incentivized for once?

I wouldn't mind seeing it be more incentivized in a more appropriate manner, but I don't think it's really needed either and you're talking about a bigger issue.

Do I think it's appropriate to incentivize 1 particular weapon system to be arm mounted by making it far less useful in a torso mount when that's not the case for any other weapon system? No, I don't.

Quote

Actually it is taking the fun out of learning how to use a weapon when you have assists, it's not like we have something in here that tells you how much to lead against a target.

You would still need to lead your shot against a moving target, and even with assist it wouldn't exactly be easy mode to hit a target hiding behind a wall or a hill or something.