14 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Call it quirks or skill tree, or squirk-tree, or base stats or whatever. Regardless how they do, the result is the same, so... what I'd like to write up is a list of what went missing and how I believe certain mechs could become fun and attractive again. At least in my humble onion, I have never had more fun than I had last spring when faction balance really was rather good. I'll just list IS mechs for now at least. Also avoiding a few I don't own, like the latest releases.

Category 0: Mechs that are actually in a pretty good spot. Let's start out positively.

Mechs that have a unique play style, not overpowered but sufficiently quirked to be somehow viable and fun to play in niche roles. Some of them could use armor instead of structure quirks, but that mostly has to do with that the current quirks to compensate clan XL doesn't really cut it across the line.

Mechs in this category: AS9-S, AS9-D-DDC, AS9-BH, AWS-9M, AWS-8R, AWS-8Q, VTR-ALL, BLR-2C, STK-ALL, DRG-1C, DRG-FANG, DRG-1N, QKD-5K, CTF-ALL, CDA-ALL, BJ-A, BJ-1DC, BJ-3, CN9-AH, CN9-Wang, HBK-4G, HBK-4P, HBK-4J, HBK-4SP, ENF-5P, ENF-4R, TBT-ALL, GRF-2N, GRF-E, GRF-3M, KTO-ALL, SHD-2H, SHD-2D2, SHD-2K, WVR-6K, WVR-6R, LCT-PB, LCT-3E, LCT-1V, COM-2D, COM-DK, SDR-5D, SDR-5K, UM-ALL, JR7-O, WLF-ALL.

I am not saying they are competitive or anything, but IMO it would not be very productive to give them stronger quirks, they have sort of reached the limit. You can have a fun game in any of these under the right circumstances. (OK, give VTRs JJ buffs!)

Category 1. Mechs that were inflated by the rescale and/or received other durability nerfs

These are mechs that either lost armor quirks for structure, or that had their structure quirks nerfed in the May-Jul patches. To make it worse, the meta has now shifted from Lasers to PPFLD damage, something that hurts these mechs even more because many of them were good at spreading DOTs by having large XL engines, good humanoid hitboxes with shielding arms. Now they take it all in the ST instead.

Mechs in this category: BNC-ALL, ZEU-ALL, BLK-ALL-KNT, GHR-ALL, WHM-ALL, TDR-ALL, CPLT-ALL, FS9-ALL, JR7-ALL

Solution: All these were in a good spot before but now lag behind on durability due to the reasons above. Give them a little bit more structure or armor. In some cases, BNC-3E/3S they need agility to help being mostly stuck with STD engines. In the case of ZEU, these used to be unique in their durability, an opportunity lost not to give them armor quirks back. The TDR-T is a good exanple of a mech that lost range quirks and was never compensated with anything else. It also used to be the only one with structure, but now most IS mechs have structure...

Category 2: Mechs that gradually lost offense quirks

Here I am thinking of several chassi that were repeatedly nerfed, especially in the big dequirkening where all range quirks above 10% were simply removed and often replaced by nothing. These were all once great but have fallen behind because of these nerfs, and because new mechs were introduced that are better than these ever were.

Mechs in this category: BNC-3M, MAL-ALL, STK-ALL, BJ-1X, TDR-T, RVN-ALL, HBK-GI

Solution: Give them back some love just. The BNC and MALs are needed to give IS something to dance with Kodiaks. The Stalkers suffer from low engine cap. Some BJs were nerfed a few times too many, and ravens and the topdog was never compensated for lost range quirks.

Category 3: Mechs that never were good enough

Here I am thinking mechs that never got the quirks to get a taste of being good. Decent sure, but not good. Perhaps because they were once in the ancient past part of the meta, or because of the more careful policy that seemed to be adopted after the first big quirkenings.

Mechs in this category: KGC-ALL, BNC-3S, BNC-3E, MAD-non3R, RFL-ALL, CRB-ALL, SHD-GD, SHD-5M, SHD-2D, DRG-FLAME, DRG-5N, WVR-7K, WVR-7D, WVR-Q, GRF-1S, GRF-1N, HBK-4H, CN9-A, CDA-3F, JR7-nonO.

Solution: No general solution, very mixed sallad here, but KGC and CRB should be a hard nuts to crack imo, no brainer to give it armor. BNC-non3M needs agility and durability, MAD could use even more durability, Some forgotten mechs just need attention, or the correct quirks for their potential builds.

Category 4: Hopeless mechs

A very personal list, but these I feel we should just let go. If you quirk them enough to be good they become too ridiculous to exist...

Mechs in this category: SDR-5V, CDA-3C, perhaps I'll also leave Highlanders and Orions here as far as I'm concerned, but I guess JJ's could do it for the HGN. Hmm, turned out shorter than I had expected. Lets add loyalty and hero Wolverines here too, though they could be salvaged.

So, point is, there are many mechs that need help to get back up in the saddle again. I miss the early spring last year when you had sooo many mechs to choose from. It was great fun to play back then!

Have fun!

[Pjwned]

So, you want a repeat of the arbitrary mech tier list fiasco that originally determined how many quirks any given mech had?

Because I don't.

[PhoenixFire55]

Pjwned, on 26 January 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:

So, you want a repeat of the arbitrary mech tier list fiasco that originally determined how many quirks any given mech had?

Because I don't.

Repeat? We never had anything different. The so called "data" they claim they have is a myth. Its all arbitrary anyway. Its actually the rescale fiasco that was based on some sort of fubar logic they had that resulted in dozens of mechs becoming perma-dead. We are screwed either way because we are stuck with lazy inept developer, not because arbitrary / not atbitrary. Not only that but a developer that actively channels all resources to a different project anyway. So don't expect they'd put a rescale in their rescale to fix the rescale.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 26 January 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Pjwned]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 January 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

Repeat? We never had anything different. The so called "data" they claim they have is a myth. Its all arbitrary anyway. Its actually the rescale fiasco that was based on some sort of fubar logic they had that resulted in dozens of mechs becoming perma-dead. We are screwed either way because we are stuck with lazy inept developer, not because arbitrary / not atbitrary. Not only that but a developer that actively channels all resources to a different project anyway. So don't expect they'd put a rescale in their rescale to fix the rescale.

I mean, you're right that that it's arbitrary in the end anyways because quirks are a mess, but at least there's a pretense of it not being completely arbitrary and not repeating step for step something that didn't work before.

[Duke Nedo]

Pjwned, on 26 January 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:

So, you want a repeat of the arbitrary mech tier list fiasco that originally determined how many quirks any given mech had?

Because I don't.

I don't know what I want to be honest, a bit bored at work and bored with the way MWO has become less fun during the autumn/winter, partly due to degrading balance. I wanted to sort of point to which mechs I believe needs certain help. I don't know which system they will choose to achieve it, but I am guessing that many of the current quirks will simply carry over as "base stats"... there's also this thing nagging me that we were in such a great spot last spring with all that variety on the field and from there it has now slipped to be only about KDK-3, NGR, TBR, HBK-IIc-A and a few select mechs, all clan mechs really. Is there a single IS mech that would be fielded in a tournament today after the NGR and JR7-IIc have arrived?

Edited by Duke Nedo, 26 January 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Mechs that were never ever meta mechs, as far as I know. These could probably all survive solid buffs without becoming OP.

(Please correct me, I don't really know how true this is. Bonus points if you manage not to be a jerk about it.)

LCT-1M, LCT-3S, LCT-3V
Every Commando except COM-2D (which was once meta in 2012), but throw in the COM-2D for good measure
SDR-5V (seriously, give this thing LCT-1V level quirks)
Urbanmech
FS9-H (although all Firestarters are ridiculously underquirked, tbh)
JR7-K (ditto)
Every Panther (seriously, PGI's fear of light mech poptarts is hilarious)
Every Wolfhound
(Tempted to include Ravens, but all Ravens have been meta at some point)

Mist Lynx
Adder
Kit Fox

CDA-3M, CDA-3F, CDA-3C, CDA-X5
Every Phoenix Hawk
Every Vindicator
Every Centurion (I guess 3xSRM CN9-A was technically meta in 2012)
Every Enforcer
HBK-4H, HBK-4G, Grid Iron
Every Trebuchet
Every Bushwacker? Heh.
GRF-1S, Sparky
Every Kintaro (although they were technically meta back when people used IS SSRM2s)
SHD-2K and Gray Death? I guess the only SHDs never to be meta, at some point?
Every Wolverine except WVR-6R, which was meta at some point due to god quirks

Viper (although it's apparently overperforming due to powerful MGs, heh)
Shadow Cat (was it ever the best Clan medium, really?)
Huntsman? Not sure.

Every Dragon except DRG-1N, I guess? Although Flame may have been meta in 2012 when AC20 torso was a big deal.
Every Quickdraw except IV-FOUR? Not sure.
RFL-5D and Legend Killer? Not sure.
Every Catapult (although CPLT-A1 splatcat and streakboat were meta in 2012-2013, and gauss pult too)
Every Archer
CTF-1X, CTF-2X, CTF-4X
Every Orion

Mad Dog
Linebacker
Non-loyalty Summoner

Every Awesome
Every Zeus
Every Cyclops
MAL-2P
La Malinche
Boar's Head, AS7-K, AS7-D

Gargoyle
Highlander IIC

I think this covers all the mechs that were never meta, never really had their day in the sun as the mech to watch out for.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 26 January 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[cazidin]

My quirk list includes ridiculous buffs to Urbanmechs to make them into the legends they truly are in our minds.

[Duke Nedo]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

Mechs that were never ever meta mechs, as far as I know. These could probably all survive solid buffs without becoming OP.

(Please correct me, I don't really know how true this is. Bonus points if you manage not to be a jerk about it.)

I think this covers all the mechs that were never meta, never really had their day in the sun as the mech to watch out for.

I'll cut some out and give my comments. Not really any right or wrong here, just opinions.

LCT-3S: main problem no weight for ammo right, hopeless variant?
SDR-5V (seriously, give this thing LCT-1V level quirks): even so... hopeless variant?
Urbanmech: I don't own them but feel they fill their niche pretty well. Perhaps give them some more durability.
FS9-H (although all Firestarters are ridiculously underquirked, tbh): Aye, moar quirks needed,
JR7-K (ditto): All Jenners except oxide just feel forgotten, always have been.
Every Panther (seriously, PGI's fear of light mech poptarts is hilarious): Don't own.
Every Wolfhound: Got good durability now, havent really tried yet, but I would assume they would be pretty good now?
(Tempted to include Ravens, but all Ravens have been meta at some point): RVN-2X was it that lost its range quirks and got nothing? Also Huginn was over-nerfed, compare to Oxide, but may be better now with new MGs. Didn't test yet.

Mist Lynx: Better than ever but can they ever get enough love?
Adder: Pretty good spot now imo, but I loved Adders already before any clan quirks.
Kit Fox: Got some nice pods now but I didn't try them. I always thought kittys were the worst clan mech of all almost, perhaps barring unquirked MLX... never liked them, didn't touch after mastering.

CDA-3M, CDA-3F, CDA-3C, CDA-X5: The X5 has nice quirks now, and the 3M is always pretty OK with ECM. 3F underquirked and 3C pretty hopeless imo.
Every Phoenix Hawk: don't own
Every Vindicator: don't own
Every Centurion (I guess 3xSRM CN9-A was technically meta in 2012): AH, Wang and energy one pretty OK, niched and workable. The -D feels a bit hopeless to me but some seem to love it. Perhaps it's in a good spot too. The -A was is also one I like the least, but some seem to love that one too.
Every Enforcer: Aren't enforcers pretty good? I would believe the energy one and the ballistics one to be fine.
HBK-4H, HBK-4G, Grid Iron: 4G has great quirks and is great fun. The 4H is just forgotten and GI overnerfed IMO. Can almost do 4G now but just a bit worse and single gauss is dead so it's kind of pointless now.
Every Trebuchet: don't own, but I think they can do nicely now?
Every Bushwacker? Heh.: didn't buy but yeah, probably needs more.
GRF-1S, Sparky: Sparky is not too shabby, but otherwise yeah. The SRM bomber variants are in a pretty good spot.
Every Kintaro (although they were technically meta back when people used IS SSRM2s): Guess they are ok with LRMS, didn't try.
SHD-2K and Gray Death? I guess the only SHDs never to be meta, at some point? I think the 2K was the best SHD for a while when all SHDs were underquirked, because 3x LPL on excellent mounts. Gray Death? Kind of meh.
Every Wolverine except WVR-6R, which was meta at some point due to god quirks: 6R is still pretty good run it with SRM support now. Also the 6K is not bad at all, but not as much fun as the LPL-version we had at one time which was awesome!

Viper (although it's apparently overperforming due to powerful MGs, heh): don't own, seem pretty fine
Shadow Cat (was it ever the best Clan medium, really?): Yeah, didn't need nerfs, but also I understand why one would be careful with this one. If a single pod is released that increases its number of E hardpoints it will be borderline OP, or OP.
Huntsman? Not sure.: Didn't buy, looks like a fun SRM bomber and should be able to perform well imo.

Every Dragon except DRG-1N, I guess? Although Flame may have been meta in 2012 when AC20 torso was a big deal.: I love my dragons. The 1N was a little bit overnerfed, the Flame has always been underquirked because it had the reputation of being the only good Dragon... I think Fang and 1C are in good spots now, 1N need something small, 5N needs a little more than that, preferrable proper ac2 quirks now that there is no GH.

Every Quickdraw except IV-FOUR? Not sure: Don't own the IV4, but I have seen niche builds with superquirked dual AC10 that looks like a lot of fun so it may be in a good niche spot. The 5K is still pretty good but the other variants have nothing going for them. Think they lost lots of range and gained nothing.
RFL-5D and Legend Killer? Not sure.: Didn't buy
Every Catapult (although CPLT-A1 splatcat and streakboat were meta in 2012-2013, and gauss pult too). Catapults lost some structure and probably needs a little help again. No strong opinions. Too strong quirks could produce weird builds...
Every Archer: Yeah
CTF-1X, CTF-2X, CTF-4X: The 1X looks very interesting on paper but it's the only variant I don't own... 4X is hopeless with small engine, the 2X is just meh....
Every Orion: Yeah, but can they get more quirks? Feels a bit hopeless for me but I guess some people like them.

Mad Dog: Seems popular, never made a big impression with me. Haven't played them since they got quirks so I can't say.
Linebacker: Didn't buy, but seems to be in a good spot to me.
Non-loyalty Summoner: Played very little since they got quirks, but the loyalty pods is a great example why it's dangerous to quirk mechs whole biggest problem is lack of hardpoints... SHC-situation incoming...

Every Awesome: Here I think the 8Q and 8R are in good niche spots. Can't really get stronger quirks, handicapped by engine restriction. Buff STD engines... for the 9M it's OK, but I would have liked to make the ER-PPC quirks into PPC quirks.
Every Zeus: I miss the old Zeuses a lot. The smaller and tougher versions were solid mechs, great fun to play. They need armor back.
Every Cyclops: Didn't buy but Sleipnir looks fine. Otherwise no idea.
MAL-2P: All Maulers are desperately needed to be revitalized. The only IS chassi I can see that has the hardpoints and geometry to give KDK-3 a run for the money.
La Malinche: Poor guy.
Boar's Head, AS7-K, AS7-D: The armor on K and D may have made a difference, didn't try yet. If STD are buffed, perhaps. The Boars head is only one step away from fun... had that one gotten armor as well I would have taken it out for a spin.

Gargoyle: Imo it was pretty good at what it does already before it got quirked. Haven't tried now but considering how OK it was before quirks it really should be in a good spot now for it's niche role.
Highlander IIC: Pretty solid imo, but there are simply better alternatives...

There's my comments from the top of my head.

[Tristan Winter]

Duke Nedo, on 26 January 2017 - 09:58 AM, said:

seem pretty fine

Just to clarify, I'm talking about what is required to make those top of the line mechs. Can you get good scores with the Viper, Mad Dog, Gargoyle, Hunchback and Awesome? Sure. But are they top of the line? Can they compete with the Griffins, Hunchie IIC, Kodiaks or Banshees? No. And I don't think it's even very close. So they're "fine", but if I was in charge of balance, my goal would never be to make any mechs just "fine". I would to take all underperforming mechs right up to the point where they are almost OP. The only exception is heavy mechs, because then it's usually a matter of nerfing the best mechs, not buffing the weaker mechs to become as good as Timber Wolves and Night Gyrs.

[Duke Nedo]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

Just to clarify, I'm talking about what is required to make those top of the line mechs. Can you get good scores with the Viper, Mad Dog, Gargoyle, Hunchback and Awesome? Sure. But are they top of the line? Can they compete with the Griffins, Hunchie IIC, Kodiaks or Banshees? No. And I don't think it's even very close. So they're "fine", but if I was in charge of balance, my goal would never be to make any mechs just "fine". I would to take all underperforming mechs right up to the point where they are almost OP. The only exception is heavy mechs, because then it's usually a matter of nerfing the best mechs, not buffing the weaker mechs to become as good as Timber Wolves and Night Gyrs.

Aye aye. What I mean by "fine" is that I believe that some mechs are just not feasible to quirk all the way to the "general top" so to say. I mean, you always could with really really extreme quirks, but then they probably would become really really OP in some niche role at the same time.

For example, Gargoyles. I think they are excellent heavy brawlers, but they are horrible at the ppfld meta game. If you would give them so extreme durability quirks that they can trade efficiently with a ppfld NGR, then they would be unstoppable in a brawl. Therefore I say that Gargoyles are "fine" as niche heavy brawlers. You could say the same about AS9-S I guess, though they are so slow that they are probably even more niched.

In that category I'd place quite a few mechs. Basically bad designs that have gotten so strong quirks that they actually can do one niche thing OK, though they are over all nowhere near the top. I'd for example place some of the Awesomes there, some Hunchies, Centurions, Atlai, Gargoyles, Executioners, Cicadas, Ice ferrets, some Dragons, some Wolverines, some Griffins etc.

[Tristan Winter]

Duke Nedo, on 26 January 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Aye aye. What I mean by "fine" is that I believe that some mechs are just not feasible to quirk all the way to the "general top" so to say. I mean, you always could with really really extreme quirks, but then they probably would become really really OP in some niche role at the same time.

For example, Gargoyles. I think they are excellent heavy brawlers, but they are horrible at the ppfld meta game. If you would give them so extreme durability quirks that they can trade efficiently with a ppfld NGR, then they would be unstoppable in a brawl. Therefore I say that Gargoyles are "fine" as niche heavy brawlers. You could say the same about AS9-S I guess, though they are so slow that they are probably even more niched.

In that category I'd place quite a few mechs. Basically bad designs that have gotten so strong quirks that they actually can do one niche thing OK, though they are over all nowhere near the top. I'd for example place some of the Awesomes there, some Hunchies, Centurions, Atlai, Gargoyles, Executioners, Cicadas, Ice ferrets, some Dragons, some Wolverines, some Griffins etc.

I have a lot of faith in quirks. Quirks turned the LCT-1V from the worst mech in the game without question to one of the most popular light mechs in the game. That's a huuuge leap! And look at the Hunchback SP variant. Nothing really good about it on paper. Add some extreme survivability quirks and some good weapon quirks and it's now one of the most popular medium mechs for FP, for example.

The Gargoyle may never be a good hill humper, but when you can equip 6 SPLs in one arm and a big Clan ballistic in the other arm, you don't really need the craziest quirks to make it work. But if the Gargoyle did have as good quirks as certain IS assault mechs, it would most definitely be a top contender. I mean, I mean +24 or +31 armour for the CT? That's a game changer!

It doesn't necessarily make them OP, it just puts them into a niche role, which I think is fine. The Hunchie SP will never be a long range sniper or fire support mech and the LCT-1V isn't really as suited for brawling as it is for sniping with 1 ERLL, LL or LPL.

[Duke Nedo]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 11:51 AM, said:

I have a lot of faith in quirks. Quirks turned the LCT-1V from the worst mech in the game without question to one of the most popular light mechs in the game. That's a huuuge leap! And look at the Hunchback SP variant. Nothing really good about it on paper. Add some extreme survivability quirks and some good weapon quirks and it's now one of the most popular medium mechs for FP, for example.

The Gargoyle may never be a good hill humper, but when you can equip 6 SPLs in one arm and a big Clan ballistic in the other arm, you don't really need the craziest quirks to make it work. But if the Gargoyle did have as good quirks as certain IS assault mechs, it would most definitely be a top contender. I mean, I mean +24 or +31 armour for the CT? That's a game changer!

It doesn't necessarily make them OP, it just puts them into a niche role, which I think is fine. The Hunchie SP will never be a long range sniper or fire support mech and the LCT-1V isn't really as suited for brawling as it is for sniping with 1 ERLL, LL or LPL.

Sure, I think we are talking about the same thing. Perhaps I think the Gargoyle is a little bit better than you think it is, but that's opinion. It's pretty well quirked and fast/agile. It's one of the fresh mechs I least want to meet at close range unexpectedly. Worse than an AS9 because these you can at least run away from.

[Tristan Winter]

Duke Nedo, on 26 January 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

Sure, I think we are talking about the same thing. Perhaps I think the Gargoyle is a little bit better than you think it is, but that's opinion. It's pretty well quirked and fast/agile. It's one of the fresh mechs I least want to meet at close range unexpectedly. Worse than an AS9 because these you can at least run away from.

Oh, I'm not underestimating it. It was the last Clan assault I ever bought, and I only bought it a few months ago. I was really surprised at how good it is, since nobody's using it. Made me realize that basically any Clan omnimech is going to be pretty good if you have a big CXL engine and enough hardpoints. Particularly if you have an arm with 6 energy hardpoints. Those just ruin people's days

PS: Your post has no list of mechs that are OP. Not a fan of nerfing mechs?

Edited by Tristan Winter, 26 January 2017 - 12:14 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

PS: Your post has no list of mechs that are OP. Not a fan of nerfing mechs?

As someone pointed out in another thread, I also think it's difficult to nerf the KDK-3, NGR and TBR any further in a good way. They are just near optimal clan tech platforms and the only effective tool I think is to reduce twist range and/or give negative agility quirks. You could do that, but I would much prefer if they would rather buff up IS tech to a level where we don't need to use negative quirks on all non-handicapped clan tech. It doesn't make sense...

I think the most important thing is to make sure that the best IS mechs get back up there with the best clan mechs. WHMs, GHR-5P, TDRs, JM6s, BLRs, MALs and BNC-3M have potential to get there quite easily, they have the geometry and hardpoints and just need to compensate for the IS XL and weapon tech.

By "over quirking" a little, we could also make BLK-KNTs, MADs, STKs, ZEUs, CTFs, KGCs and others to fulfill effective roles.

As for clan mechs in general I stayed a little bit clear of them, but IMO they are in better shape. There are a few weaker chassi but most of them are viable for something. Perhaps the WHK is my least favorite clan mech, but some people love that one too so... who am I to judge?

[Requiemking]

Well, I own the Orion K Champion, and honestly, Orions are pretty much what they have always been, which is budget Atlai.