70 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

50 50, on 27 January 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

However if you want a lasting system: make the loyalty points a usable currency!

There are a couple of features that have been asked for many times by the community that would work very nicely with the ability to spend loyalty points. Happy to chat about those as well as I do not believe they are very difficult to implement at all.

I follow what you're saying, and I like it. What are your ideas for what the community could spend loyalty points on..?

[naterist]

ability to buy 1 extra skill node on a mech (limit 1 per mech for balance)

sorry, had to interject. tourets and budweiser..................

[50 50]

Mech The Dane, on 27 January 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

I follow what you're saying, and I like it. What are your ideas for what the community could spend loyalty points on..?

It's all about expanding the game and adding some depth. If we use c-bills and MC to get and equip mechs, then Loyalty points are about representing our Faction in Faction Play.

Anything that will affect combat and the potential outcome of the battle should be temporary bonuses but could range in scale and cost.
eg. The drop deck tonnages. It could be a bonus for one battle, one attack phase or a 24 hour period.
Some other temporary options could include some of the items already suggested such as:
- faster re-drops
- have the drop ship wait around a bit longer
- perhaps even changing the dropship loadout
- being garrisoned on the planet (Different drop zone with a lift for instant drops)
- adding defences to the drop zones
- adding defences to the garrison
- what about being able to add an additional mech to your drop deck
- what about adding a trial Faction mech
- there was the suggestion of earning more c-bills for a drop
I think we need to be a little careful of options that could have too much impact and take the battle away from player effort but we can also look at these options being a little different according to the Faction we are loyal to.
What about using loyalty points as an exchange currency for hiring mercenaries? Something to consider as a later addition?

For permanent options, people love customisation and one thing that has been asked for over the years is customising our mechbays. Doesn't have a buff effect so to speak, but there are plenty of options that could be looked at similar to how we can pimp out the cockpits of our mechs. Pretty simple option to bring in more Faction related and personal items.
As another thought, what about being able to mark our mechs as specials to earn more c-bills, some unique decals, camo schemes or cockpit items?

We can have a lot of fun with different permanent items but they should avoid having an effect in battle that would create balance issues.


If we want to look a bit further outside of what we have right now, then to get more out of Loyalty points we need additional features that we can apply those points to.

So, bear with me here to explore an idea.

If we think of some new features that can add some depth to the game play and our choices lets think about two features that seem to pop up as a request a lot. Logistics and Repairs/Rearm.

Now there has been a lot of ideas thrown around about these features and I understand there was initially a repair feature right at the beginning of MWO. Personally I feel there is a place for both of these features in Faction Play but they do not need to be overly elaborate, at least to begin with. I also feel that repairs and rearm would work very nicely using the resource points gathered from Conquest but that is an additional step at this stage.

Consider this idea though.
If Logistics is the measurement of time and cost (Not to be confused with supply lines) and we don't want to have a delay in how long it takes to send our mechs to a battlezone, then all we are really talking about is a cost. Specifically, our Jumpship cost.
If it was measured as something like {Number of Mechs * Total Tonnage * C-bills} and it's a cost we can see when we build our drop decks and pay when jump into the fight we suddenly have a little value that has several effects and that we can apply features/modifiers to.
That's where loyalty points could be used again. (Combine with an MC or c-bill cost as needed)
We could buy dropships to reduce the cost. Doesn't need to be elaborate, just a marker in the drop deck, but it can create a modifier for the new cost. Could be purchased at a personal level, but we could also look at it as an option for units for group drops.
What about a little Logistics officer that could appear in our mechbays that adds a modifier?
How hard would that actually be to implement?

Naturally, look at increasing the payouts from the battles but it does create an economic risk the heavier the drop decks are.
It might also naturally serve as a way to curb the new player participation until they are a bit more established or join a unit that can then support them. That seems like a win win for numerous players that have debated the point.

Beyond that, a logistics cost also gives another way to balance Clan vs IS in that it could cost one side more.
It could also allow for some individuality with the Factions, eg. Steiner likes the heavy drops and subsidises it (ie. use loyalty points for a temporary reduction)

As for using loyalty points for repairs, adding some NPC techs to our mech bay that could modify the cost of repairs. We've got the characters in the Tutorial and it can just be a modifier. It's like adding a module to your mechbay.

Down the track we could look at bases as options that affect these features and use loyalty points, could do that now if it's kept simple enough. Add visuals later.

The point is, we get some additional features in that can be built on as we go along and as we experience the game new ideas will come to light that we should be able to look at adding.

Edited by 50 50, 27 January 2017 - 05:40 AM.

[Fake News]

i would rather have a clear way to vote on and guage a planet invasion and how much work our unit puts in vs faction quirks.

i miss being able to select which planet we drop on and we like the idea of status items like titles, dekales and colors.

[Spider00x]

Mech The Dane, on 27 January 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

So... maybe we should step away from weapon systems and stuff...

First off you have weight; tonnage. PGI already uses drop weight to try and balance things, so giving all loyalists +10 tons would be a 'perk' that isn't too crazy.

That isn't really unique though. So what are things we can do?

CW stuff:
Faster Respawns - your dropship only takes 15 seconds to arrive.

Better Turrets - Your turrets are 2x as healthy (only really matters on Invasion tho =(

Scouting bonuses: You're sensor sweep lasts 2x as long, your ECM lasts 2x as long

Other more passive stuff:

Consumables:
Your UAV has a longer range
Your UAV has more health

Your arty/air strike cool down is shorter, or you can drop two at once...
Your coolshoots are cooler, or you can take two of the better kind of coolshoot.

Maybe you have a third consumable slot? (probably too OP?)


Things that act like modules already in game...

You hold locks slightly longer,
you have slightly further radar,
You can hill-climb easier

Other stuff:

Slightly larger ECM bubble
...?


You guys see where I am going with this though, right? Rather then trying to balance things like heat and weapons.. smaller more passive bonuses...

Yeah guys these buffs dont have to neccisarily be weapon focused, It could be as simple as Davion gets a Cbill bonus for being the wealthiest empire, or Steiner gets 5 extra tons on a drop decks, keep brain storming

[-Waffler]

Spider00x, on 27 January 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Yeah guys these buffs dont have to neccisarily be weapon focused, It could be as simple as Davion gets a Cbill bonus for being the wealthiest empire, or Steiner gets 5 extra tons on a drop decks, keep brain storming

Do you even lore? Steiner has the most money.

[SuperFunkTron]

naterist, on 27 January 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

to compensate for the fact that certain mechs are better, your going to want to have multiple combos of mechs. so say steiner gets a cbill bonus on a battlemaster, well steiner doesnt have exclusivity to battlemasters because davion gets a bonus for them too. but unlike steiner, davion has a jagermech, and steiner doesnt. know who else has a jagermech? frr. so really make it combinations of mechs so everything is a different slice of the pie with a decent bit of crossover, so theres incentives for taking your factions mech, without giving anyone a monopoly on a specific chassis, and no real punishment for not being in your factions mech.

I was doing some digging on the forums yesterday and found this:
Here's a section of Odanan's post:

Odanan, on 27 June 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Assignment tables:

Spoiler

MWO IS mechs (year 3039):

Notes:

• The second Draconis Combine column is for Kurita A rated units (they have much more old Star League stuff).
  
• The Mauler in the table is the earlier Dabuku (the Mauler itself is produced only in 3048, but would quickly replace the Dabuku and become a mainstay in DCM).
  
• The Wolfhound variants, by 3039, are basically prototypes. The standard Wolfhound is produced in 3052.
  
• The Black Knight is very rare by 3039, but resumes production in 3052.

Extra IS mechs (strong candidates that can be added any moment):






And the Clans, 3050 (invading force):

Info compiled from here. (thanks to Sennin for the original link).

It's well known that certain mechs were common across borders and that they were in present in varying amounts. 2 ideas can come from this: 1) Bonuses for any of the mechs that were used in that faction or 2) tiered bonuses based on how many of a specific chassis (or variant) were used by that faction. Chassis would be a much easier first step if they wanted to eventually start rewarding for specific mech variants.
In both scenarios multiple factions will have access to many of the same mechs (clans especially), but the 2nd idea will incentivize choosing those that were more popular for the specific faction (think Clan Wolf heavies should be mostly Linebackers and timber Wolves where Jade falcon would have more Summoners and Hellbringers).

There will always be arguments about which faction is incentivizing the most "meta" mech at the time, but that can be offset by the amount of reward offered for those mechs. The most effective solution to this "which clan rewards the 'best' meta" is to quirk clans so that each faction would eventually develop its own set of meta builds based on the strengths provided by their factions quirks.

Mech The Dane, on 27 January 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

So... maybe we should step away from weapon systems and stuff...

Other more passive stuff:

Consumables:
Your UAV has a longer range
Your UAV has more health

Your arty/air strike cool down is shorter, or you can drop two at once...
Your coolshoots are cooler, or you can take two of the better kind of coolshoot.


Things that act like modules already in game...

You hold locks slightly longer,
you have slightly further radar,
You can hill-climb easier

Other stuff:

Slightly larger ECM bubble
...?


You guys see where I am going with this though, right? Rather then trying to balance things like heat and weapons.. smaller more passive bonuses...

If passive quirks are preferable to adjusting weapons systems, they would still need to take into consideration the mechs that are typical for their faction (as that would be added incentive to use faction specific mechs), so that if a certain faction seems to be struggling more than others, their buff (or number of buffs) could be increased to help make them more competitive.

If we go by Faction tendencies, it could look something like this (someone with more in depth lore knowledge would be needed to improve it, but this is more to flesh out the concept than finalize it, and revisions would need to be made to improve the overall balance.)

Liao: Buffed ECM range, improved BAP, radar deprivation or reduced time tracked (big on counter-intel and sneakier tactics, but also lack a large supply of assault mechs) maybe allow the company commander to use a radar jammer up to 3 times per FP match.

Steiner: armor boost at expense of speed (fits the size vs speed mentality and increases exposure as a cost to the added armor)

Davion: further C-bill boost for using Autocannons, UAV last longer, Company commander allowed to used Radar Sweep 3 times per match (they have pronounced affinity to ACs and are known for intel)

Kurita: longer target retention (bonus for light mechs using their speed to scout), slightly longer effect time when hitting enemies with (er)PPCs

Marik: slight extension to lock retention, improved air/artillery strikes (they were big on vehicles so strikes could help represent that)
Rasalhague: *** I can not find any information based on their fight styles so someone needs to help me out on this one***

Clans
Clan Wolf: Comapany comannder allowed to used Radar Sweep 3 times per match, slight speed buff (they were known for using speed and group tactics as evidenced by gargoyle being their main assault).

Smoke Jaguar: armor boost at expense of speed (famous for the use of frontal assaults to smash through and obliterate an enemy)

Jade Falcon: Mobility quirks, slight jump jet buff, ams buff, slight buff to ECM range, improved BAP

Ghost Bear: longer target retention (bonus for light mechs using their speed to scout), extended uav time, slight speed boost. (they were big on fast and powerful at the cost of armor or heat)

Mercs: Benefit of choosing who they fight for and would gain a large c-bill reward for victories while receiving small payouts for losses, better recreating the high risk/reward nature of their faction. No other quirks as they don't develop their own tech.

As I stated earlier, this is something I'm throwing together quickly and I lack a lot of the resources to be able to find clearer explanations of tactics. This is more of a quick display of concept if we don't want to offer weapon cooldown and efficiency buffs/nerfs based on a Faction's play style.

These Faction Quirks would be best applied to faction specific mechs in order to further incentivize playing as the faction would.

A 2nd wave improvement would be to look at the specific mech variants each faction used and add buffs to emphasize more role warfare i.e. hellbringer prime gets an ECM buff when used in the correct faction that utilized them most so that it encourages escort ECM escort behavior, Jagermech (whichever is the AC variant) gets a slight heat efficiency for using ACs.

The real key is to approach the quirks one step at a time, from broadest differentiation moving toward the details so that each layer of quirks can be examined and tuned along the way to creating a real identity and play style for each house.

Edited by SuperFunkTron, 27 January 2017 - 11:10 AM.

[-Waffler]

I'll keep out of balance/buff issues, but honestly I would like to see other incentives for playing loyalist. Meaning I don't want to be bribed with c-bills or enhanced performance to go loyalist. I think that if you're, say, a Steiner loyalist, you should have access to the loyalist colors/paint scheme while you are in. Things like that.

Maybe throw in events that offer permanent Faction colors/warhorns for those loyalists that participate, and maybe give a special bonus of some kind for the top performing/most active loyalist units.

[Composite Armour]

They could add loyalty points as an alternative currency after you reach the highest rank with your faction.

They could then be spent on faction paint, warhorns and the like for the appropriate faction.

Also maybe apply a discount to the favoured mechs on each faction? Say a 30% discount on Atlas if you go Steiner, with the option to buy it for LP also. If you were to go to extremes you could include faction exclusive variant of mechs that could only be bought with LP.

Simple stuff, nice rewards(well I like paints and warhorns).

[SuperFunkTron]

Another idea to help with Faction Quirks is the contract system. Because the new diversity will inherently push people to experiment and find what they like best, removing the "permanent" option and replacing it with a recurring (weekly, monthly,etc...) option that pays less at first, but increases with each renewal up to a certain point would incentivized long term play while allowing people to find the faction that suits them best.

Example
Contract types: 1 week- 4% bonus 2 weeks 7% bonus Month- 9% bonus
Renewal incentive : 1 week contract- add 1% for each renewal up to 10% 2 week contract- add 3% for each renewal up to 20%. Month long contract- add 6% for each renewal up to 35%

The contract options can be adjusted to make sure that there is less incentive for mercenaries to exploit quick changes and still retain a meaningful role. The percentages obviously need work, but this would encourage loyalist tendencies by offering improved c-bill rewards for long term commitments. A penalty system would still remain for breaking contracts to discourage immediate switches.

The main issue is figuring out how to handle mercs in this system.

[Tesunie]

naterist, on 27 January 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

this system also doesnt punish or buff in game, which i see causing a crud-ton of complaints. it also gives a bit of light roleplaying, and the cbill bonus shouldnt be labeled as a c-bill bonus, it should be some fancy word for "money saved since your faction gets repair parts at a discount and tarriff free." but dont add a punishment, just imply it to the player that all along theyre earnings are what theyve been getting after paying for repairs. no need to hypothecize on negatives that will hurt people who want to bring a zeus as a laio for example. im not trying to imply that type of system, but if they want to bring a zeus as a steiner, then they get a bonus for it cbill wise.

Sadly most players will see any "buff" someone else gets (no matter it's terminology) as a nerf to them if they don't have it as well. It's the nature of people to want all the benefits as well. I mean, I recall when PGI was "nerfing" a few mechs that got over buffed. Even though the mech wasn't actually being nerfed beneath it's original performing stats and only it's buffs where being reduced... oh the out cry of their mech being nerfed (which wasn't even like that two weeks before they "nerfed" it even).

So, with an understanding of how people tend to react... don't care about them anymore. I just like your concept. Adds a little lore to the game play for each faction, which at the same time not really "penalizing" others for using whatever mech they wish to play with. A small stacking C-bill boost for using faction specific mechs is an interesting concept, and I like it.

50 50, on 27 January 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

However if you want a lasting system: make the loyalty points a usable currency!

This is actually what many of us thought we were going to get back when CW was first being released. We thought you'd be able to earn some cool CW Loyalty only cammo, colors and eventually decals. Some of us even though it might be used to purchase some CW specific mechs (that matched that loyalty faction), and/or purchase weapons and mechs at a discounted price if those items matched out faction's production planets. (A reason to hold onto some worlds over others.)

Instead, we got an experience rank system, that just never felt right. It's interesting, but as mentioned in here already, what do we do once we max out that gauge? Change factions? But what if we really like our current faction and wish to forever "stay loyal"? It just stopped being rewarding at that point.

They could have even (as a random idea right now) had it where you could spend loyalty points to increase your rank in your faction as a one time purchase. Increase rank could mean increase C-bills earned from a CW match (when in that faction). And to entice you to stay with a faction, one of the penalties for leaving a loyalist contract would be the lose of such purchased rank.

[Jman5]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Yeah, lots of people applaud the idea.. but I think people need to try and figure it out. How do we do this in a way that doesn't throw ANOTHER wrench into PGI's efforts to balance this game?

The way I see it, if we do get PGI to add Faction Quirks they should follow 2 general principles.

1. Be Faction Warfare Specific: Instead of generic quirks like weapon range and cooldown, they should be things that impact Faction Play. So like Scouting bonuses, or dropships, or base structures. The multiple game modes may mean adding multiple quirks. So you have a different one in Conquest than Invasion. Or you might just make one faction good at one game mode.

2. They should be representive of the Faction itself. This is where I get in over my head because I'm not a lore-guy, but these bonuses should reflect some aspect of the faction. So like if Kurita is known for being a bunch of sneaky ninjas then you might give them a bonus like: Gain +20% Intel for every beacon a Kuritan captures in Scouting.

Here is a list of possible buffs. The important thing is to keep them Individualized because a team will almost always have people from several different factions.


Emergency Forward Drop: Drop into a forward dropzone to get back into the action faster. However the dropship has no weapons, leaves immediately, and you take minor leg damage from the quick drop. (Some button you press in the respawn screen)

Plague of Locusts: After wasting your 4 mechs, Command has given you one last chance to redeem yourself. Players are given 1 trial mech locust as their 5th mech. This wouldn't count toward team deaths, but it would be unskilled, with no consumables, and not the champion version. Game still ends at 48 kills even if your locust is still alive.

Tons of Tons: Your faction gets +5 tons in your drop deck.

Hack the Planet: gain +X% intelligence for every beacon your faction members gathers in a successful scouting mission.

It's a legitimate Strategy!: You accomplish objectives better than anyone. Capture faster in Conquest and Assault. Do extra damage against Structures and mobile field bases in Invasion/Domination, Capture Intelligence beacons faster. Forget glory, all you care about is the Win.

Mo Ammo, Mo Problems: This faction can convert unused tonnage in their drop deck to Ammo drops during the game. I think this would create some interesting drop decks if there was an advantage for dropping undertonned. You might have some conversion rate for balance like 5:1.

Spy Master: Gain extra abilities with intelligence unlocks. Level 1: reveals # of mechs left in the enemy's dropdeck. Level 2: Increases Satellite Sweep length for the player. Level 3: (insert something good here that I can't think of)

Edited by Jman5, 27 January 2017 - 12:05 PM.

[naterist]

For the changing dropzones, one think i thought was cool from watching streams of mechwarrior:living legends was forward mechbays that are capturable. Having 2 of those (not mechbays like in mwll, but instead a dropzone) each quickplay map would be interesting, and combined with dropzone picking at respawn, would add a cool, extra layer for every game mode in fw. It would definetly make skirmish interesting, and skirmish is the only mode really suffering from the respawn aspect of cw.

Edited by naterist, 27 January 2017 - 02:21 PM.

[Tesunie]

naterist, on 27 January 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

... and skirmish is the only mode really suffering from the respawn aspect of cw.

There have been issues with Conquest game modes on some maps in FP as well. Some of them (Tourmaline comes to mind) where you get shot up by the enemy spawn dropship while you are trying to capture a resource point. I know in Tourmaline 2 of the 5 caps are protected this way by one side's dropships, and then the other side has one cap point far behind their lines...

[f00lish1]

Mech The Dane, on 27 January 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

I follow what you're saying, and I like it. What are your ideas for what the community could spend loyalty points on..?

Faction Warhorns, decals, paints, and I think there should be some of these should only be available for loyalty points.

Also camo schemes.

[naterist]

Tesunie, on 27 January 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

There have been issues with Conquest game modes on some maps in FP as well. Some of them (Tourmaline comes to mind) where you get shot up by the enemy spawn dropship while you are trying to capture a resource point. I know in Tourmaline 2 of the 5 caps are protected this way by one side's dropships, and then the other side has one cap point far behind their lines...

i see your point. i think they need try and limit what shows up were. tourmaline should not be in conquest. however i think it works with domination. alpine and polar though, while i hate them in skirmish and dom, are GREAT for assault and conquest. if they cleaned that up a bit id be happier, because your right, having caps protected by dropzones sucks and that needs to be looked at. also, some map and mode combos suck, so i think they need to really look more into that somehow, just to clean up the little things like caps and whatnot.

[naterist]

f00lish1, on 27 January 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

Faction Warhorns, decals, paints, and I think there should be some of these should only be available for loyalty points.

Also camo schemes.

i would like a faction store, with faction specific varients (possibly, dont rage at it just an idea), and the ability to buy faction in game items, but you can only access your specific factions store. maybe there it can be mc and lp buy you things,, and c-bills are worthless. id love to shop in a frr store, or if i felt daring, id join steiner long enough to get my christifori fanboy penetrator when those come out, and a faction camo pattern and cockpit items would be great. give us things to buy to rep our group, and make lp its main currency. that helps bolster the faction identity many people only find in a faction teamspeak, and i love the idea. good thinking man.

[SuperFunkTron]

In response to asking where we could find specific information regarding Faction military behaviors and thus appropriately apply lore based quirks, I was given this very helpful answer:

Alan Davion, on 27 January 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

My best advice would be to follow this link here

These are fan-made Army Reports on the IS factions, intended as primers mostly. If you want the really detailed stuff, you're going to have to head over to http://www.drivethrurpg.com/index.php and buy the actual Battletech rule/source books on the different factions.

Right now CGL is working on new source books for all the factions, under the title of "Combat Manuals" . They have books for Mercenaries and Kurita out right now, and the others will come when they're ready.

I hope that this will provide further support for the idea of developing faction specific mechs and faction quirks to give context and flavor to FP

[Tesunie]

naterist, on 27 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

i see your point. i think they need try and limit what shows up were. tourmaline should not be in conquest. however i think it works with domination. alpine and polar though, while i hate them in skirmish and dom, are GREAT for assault and conquest. if they cleaned that up a bit id be happier, because your right, having caps protected by dropzones sucks and that needs to be looked at. also, some map and mode combos suck, so i think they need to really look more into that somehow, just to clean up the little things like caps and whatnot.

I find there is nothing wrong with the map nor the game modes, but they do need to be relooked at what is where on each map. Right now, they have similar drop zones but with the exact same capture points. This leads to some capture points being in poor spots for the FP versions of the maps. Some drop zones should be back farther, and some cap points should be brought more forwards.

Same goes for some Domination points, but this goes for FP as well as QP maps. Some of the maps just give one side too much of an advantage, such as closer spawns or immediate cover. Crimson Straight comes to mind here. Sure, one team can quickly get to the circle... if they wish to walk out into the open bay area with no cover at all to use. While the other team gets closer spawns, has cover, gets the tunnel, the buildings, the upper/lower dock... (and that is just one example).

I find nothing is inherently bad about any of the game modes, but some aspects of each needs to be adjusted on some maps for better game play. I personally like all game modes, except for Skirmish (only because of how often I end up playing it) and Escort (only because we can't control the VIP at all, and he does some really stupid things sometimes).

[_Comrade_]

I still think faction exclusive mechs would be cool, and by capturing a certain planet the conquering faction can now use that mech. I always thought in addition to faction quirks give a reward to the faction for capturing a planet rather than just a tag