181 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

PGI does not have to make mechs not viable to sell mechpack. If that was the case, business model like Dota 2 would had been total failure. I suspect it actually brings opposite effect : by making currently owned mechs not viable, it made a lot of old players to be pissed off and left the game, shrinking the playerbase (which causes matchmaking issue, and the vicious circle begins.)

People naturally buy mechpacks because they want to play new things, not because they are competitively viable (i.e see Bushwacker.)

Thing is they've clearly shown multiple times that player retention doesn't concern them one bit.
@Island^TM. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

People who buy new things will buy them either way, you don't need to do anything in order to sell em smth. Who you do need to sell things to is the tryhard crowd who needs mech.A over mech.B even if mech A is only 1% better, and its the tryhard crowd that actually stays in the game longer because "tryhard" and because once the tryhard position is established you need to keep it like your life depends on it (again, because "tryhard").

You have a right to view things differently of course, but I'll give you one simple example ...
Dragon was a solid enough mech during CB days. Then gradually due to rather poor design by PGI (that has nothing to do with how actual Dragon looks) it slowly became an utter garbage mech. Then "suddenly" PGI decides to double the rate of AC5 fire on that mech. Needless to say when your 60t heavy can effectively have four AC5s for the price of two it becomes slightly OP. Cool, it is OP, do they address an obvious thing and change it accordingly? Nope, they leave it be for half a year until enough people buy said Dragon in order to have a "good" mech. When the required quota is reached they change the quirks and it once again becomes garbage and now people who bought it need to buy different mechs to compensate. You can argue that they buy it with c-bills, i.e. what might seem as buying "for free", but c-bills don't come out of thin air, you spend your time playing in order to earn them, and you do need mechbays in order to store all those mechs, unless you buy/sell them all the time according to new meta thus spending c-bills tenfold.

Kodiaks or rather KDK-3 is another example of a mech that clearly was OP before it even came out, yet came out with multiple positive quirks, stayed with those quirks for nearly half a year until same quota was reached and then gradually gets nerfed (although why all Kodiaks are getting shafted while its only the "3" that was an issue to begin with is still a mystery).

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 30 January 2017 - 05:46 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

Thing is they've clearly shown multiple times that player retention doesn't concern them one bit.
@Island^TM. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

People who buy new things will buy them either way, you don't need to do anything in order to sell em smth. Who you do need to sell things to is the tryhard crowd who needs mech.A over mech.B even if mech A is only 1% better, and its the tryhard crowd that actually stays in the game longer because "tryhard" and because once the tryhard position is established you need to keep it like your life depends on it (again, because "tryhard").

You have a right to view things differently of course, but I'll give you one simple example ...
Dragon was a solid enough mech during CB days. Then gradually due to rather poor design by PGI (that has nothing to do with how actual Dragon looks) it slowly became an utter garbage mech. Then "suddenly" PGI decides to double the rate of AC5 fire on that mech. Needless to say when your 60t heavy can effectively have four AC5s for the price of two it becomes slightly OP. Cool, it is OP, do they address an obvious thing and change it accordingly? Nope, they leave it be for half a year until enough people buy said Dragon in order to have a "good" mech. When the required quota is reached they change the quirks and it once again becomes garbage and now people who bought it need to buy different mechs to compensate. You can argue that they buy it with c-bills, i.e. what might seem as buying "for free", but c-bills don't come out of thin air, you spend your time playing in order to earn them, and you do need mechbays in order to store all those mechs, unless you buy/sell them all the time according to new meta thus spending c-bills tenfold.

Kodiaks or rather KDK-3 is another example of a mech that clearly was OP before it even came out, yet came out with multiple positive quirks, stayed with those quirks for nearly half a year until same quota was reached and then gradually gets nerfed (although why all Kodiaks are getting shafted while its only the "3" that was an issue to begin with is still a mystery).

Well, if that's the case, certain super popular mechs like Timber Wolf should had been nerfed to oblivion a long time ago. How about terrible Gargoyle and other niche Clan mechs? Did they receive Super Sayan buff so they would not die in 5 seconds after trying to reach SPL range?

Though, one thing is sure is that PGI is (or, maybe our own illusion) indeed very shaddy company with... unfortunately shaddy practice. They probably do not realize this, but lack of trust is probably the biggest reason why this game has not grown as big as they hoped.

[Bud Crue]

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Well, if that's the case, certain super popular mechs like Timber Wolf should had been nerfed to oblivion a long time ago. How about terrible Gargoyle and other niche Clan mechs? Did they receive Super Sayan buff so they would not die in 5 seconds after trying to reach SPL range?

Though, one thing is sure is that PGI is (or, maybe our own illusion) indeed very shaddy company with... unfortunately shaddy practice. They probably do not realize this, but lack of trust is probably the biggest reason why this game has not grown as big as they hoped.

In re TImber Wolf in some folks eyes it was "nerfed to oblivion"...go back about a year and these forums were exploding over precisely this. (edit...it was mid 2015...getting old sorry).

But they need not do much to create the circumstances Phoenixfire is referencing. Consider the Quickdraws. Last year ISEN came up with their "stormtrooper" deck for CW using mostly Quickdraws. It was a fairly rousing success for a very short period of time, but A LOT of folks bought the things so they too could run a ST deck. It took two nerf passes to kill it, and the nerfs really weren't that huge. But they were enough. For more obvious examples: Black Nights when they had extra range quirks...everyone was playing (and buying them). Post summer nerfing where are they now? Black Jacks and Oxides ringing any bells? Not exactly frequently played mechs now...but damn near everyone bought them when they were "OP".

This is what PGI does. This is what largely drives sales around here. Need more evidence: Go way back and consider the Victor and Cataphract...all it look was a jump jet nerf to kill them...what were once the most popular mechs in the game. Now go back to just last week. How many people made extra expenditures in 2016 to make sure they got that loyalty Summoner? How many are pissed off that they bothered after last weeks nerfing? Etc.

This crap (and CW) is largely why I have stopped spending real $ on this game, because there is no assurance that what I buy today will even be playable tomorrow. And PGI gives no assurance that it isn't going to keep nerfing things into the ground at their whim. And I mean that literally...they are either doing this stuff on a whim (dart board) or they are doing it in cynical effort to drive people to buy the latest in power creeped mechs. To me it is one or the other for I cannot fathom ANY balance justifications for the vast majority of what they do in this regard. Data driven my a55.

Edited by Bud Crue, 30 January 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

In re TImber Wolf in some folks eyes it was "nerfed to oblivion"...go back about a year and these forums were exploding over precisely this. (edit...it was mid 2015...getting old sorry).

But they need not do much to create the circumstances Phoenixfire is referencing. Consider the Quickdraws. Last year ISEN came up with their "stormtrooper" deck for CW using mostly Quickdraws. It was a fairly rousing success for a very short period of time, but A LOT of folks bought the things so they too could run a ST deck. It took two nerf passes to kill it, and the nerfs really weren't that huge. But they were enough. For more obvious examples: Black Nights when they had extra range quirks...everyone was playing (and buying them). Post summer nerfing where are they now? Black Jacks and Oxides ringing any bells? Not exactly frequently played mechs now...but damn near everyone bought them when they were "OP".

This is what PGI does. This is what largely drives sales around here. Need more evidence: Go way back and consider the Victor and Cataphract...all it look was a jump jet nerf to kill them...what were once the most popular mechs in the game. Now go back to just last week. How many people made extra expenditures in 2016 to make sure they got that loyalty Summoner? How many are pissed off that they bothered after last weeks nerfing? Etc.

This crap (and CW) is largely why I have stopped spending real $ on this game, because there is no assurance that what I buy today will even be playable tomorrow. And PGI gives no assurance that it isn't going to keep nerfing things into the ground at their whim. And I mean that literally...they are either doing this stuff on a whim (dart board) or they are doing it in cynical effort to drive people to buy the latest in power creeped mechs. To me it is one or the other for I cannot fathom ANY balance justifications for the vast majority of what they do in this regard. Data driven my a55.

For the balancing perspective, it is obivous to nerf the most popular mech, because it is the most powerful.

What I see the problem is that either intentional or unintentional, PGI takes really long time to nerf the popular mechs.

More and more I see this, the main, crucial issue is the lack of the trust. This lack of the trust will be probably one of the reasons the game may decline and die off.

[Bud Crue]

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

For the balancing perspective, it is obivous to nerf the most popular mech, because it is the most powerful.

What I see the problem is that either intentional or unintentional, PGI takes really long time to nerf the popular mechs.

More and more I see this, the main, crucial issue is the lack of the trust. This lack of the trust will be probably one of the reasons the game may decline and die off.

Agreed...wholeheartedly.
But it isn't just about "the most popular mechs". See my example of the Quickdraws...one very specific use, and even during that period you rarely saw them elsewhere in the game. That was enough for PGI to go after them. See to the Catapults nerfs this last summer, yes rescale...but seriously they needed 2 back to back nerf passes? Or the Banshee the E and the M needed nerfing apparently. Or the Mauler nerfs...while the Kodiak 3 was running wild they nerfed the Mauler.

Speaking of the Kodiak. If we look at the whole boondoggle surrounding their "data driven" efforts to bring the 3 in line, they nerfed UACs, which were an effective nerf to several middling mechs (Shadowhawk 3M, Enforcer 5P, etc.), they nerfed gauss which also screwed middling IS and Clan builds alike.

Look at the last nerf pass with the Clan XL engines. This won't affect the better (more popular) clan mechs but it will hurt an awful lot of the middle of the pack ones.

It makes no sense to me.

So yeah, I don't trust them either. I would actually prefer that they were doing something cynical and $ driven, but honestly I think it really is more that they have no clue what they are doing and that worries me far more. To wit: how yo think the new squirks tree is going to go? How about the near guaranteed constant reevaluating of "base line values" (quirks) that they are going to be doing after it drops? Think they will give crappy mechs more help than they get now? Less? Or a total random crap shoot?

-shudder-

[The Lighthouse]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

Agreed...wholeheartedly.
But it isn't just about "the most popular mechs". See my example of the Quickdraws...one very specific use, and even during that period you rarely saw them elsewhere in the game. That was enough for PGI to go after them. See to the Catapults nerfs this last summer, yes rescale...but seriously they needed 2 back to back nerf passes? Or the Banshee the E and the M needed nerfing apparently. Or the Mauler nerfs...while the Kodiak 3 was running wild they nerfed the Mauler.

Speaking of the Kodiak. If we look at the whole boondoggle surrounding their "data driven" efforts to bring the 3 in line, they nerfed UACs, which were an effective nerf to several middling mechs (Shadowhawk 3M, Enforcer 5P, etc.), they nerfed gauss which also screwed middling IS and Clan builds alike.

Look at the last nerf pass with the Clan XL engines. This won't affect the better (more popular) clan mechs but it will hurt an awful lot of the middle of the pack ones.

It makes no sense to me.

So yeah, I don't trust them either. I would actually prefer that they were doing something cynical and $ driven, but honestly I think it really is more that they have no clue what they are doing and that worries me far more. To wit: how yo think the new squirks tree is going to go? How about the near guaranteed constant reevaluating of "base line values" (quirks) that they are going to be doing after it drops? Think they will give crappy mechs more help than they get now? Less? Or a total random crap shoot?

-shudder-

Russ himself said that he has no idea why poptarts meta was dead a while ago. And seeing how they nerfed the Kodiak, it is most likely the people at the company has no clue about their own game really.

[Mystere]

Hit the Deck, on 28 January 2017 - 09:32 PM, said:

In another first person BT game perhaps.

Don't put MechWarrior name on it since MW games already have their own distinct feel. I feel spawning in a "match" (or maybe there's no match, just continuous battles on persistent battlefields) should be introduced in that hypothetical game as IS 'Mechs will suffer more death. On the IS side, you'll change 'Mechs more frequently because of that fact.

One of the things getting in the way of a great BattleTech game is this concept of "matches". Really? That smells 100% of eSports, which would be fine if this were actually Solaris VII ...

Just publicly acknowledge this game as an arena shooter already and let the chips fall where they may. <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 30 January 2017 - 09:52 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Well, if that's the case, certain super popular mechs like Timber Wolf should had been nerfed to oblivion a long time ago.

They are popular because they are an iconic BT mech. Timber isn't a top heavy in the game for more than a year now, and it got its negative quirks ages ago. It is an omnimech with plenty hardpoints of each kind tho, so it will be used more or less all the time until they manage to majorly screw all omnis or all clan mechs somehow.

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

How about terrible Gargoyle and other niche Clan mechs? Did they receive Super Sayan buff so they would not die in 5 seconds after trying to reach SPL range?

Well, who knows maybe they'll give em uber quirks to buff em into OP at some point. You know Dragon hasn't been addressed for like 2+ years as well, so ...

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

Though, one thing is sure is that PGI is (or, maybe our own illusion) indeed very shaddy company with... unfortunately shaddy practice. They probably do not realize this, but lack of trust is probably the biggest reason why this game has not grown as big as they hoped.

I don't think that for most people its about shady or not shady, its about getting things done. PGI promises a lot, does only a little and even a smaller part of whats done actually works. But then again, it seems to be a trend in modern gaming (and not only gaming) industry.

[Tiantara]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

Sigh. Entirely missing the point still. Try to think outside of your narrowminded clans-OP-plz-nerf pattern for a change ...

- Oh my... I'm not talking about nerfing Clans... I'm talking to make IS mech not so fragile! Not make good mech worse as we see now... but make bad mech a bit better and good mech - live longer. That's the point. I don't want have Clan mech fragile as IS, I prefer have IS mech less fragile and live longer when using XL engine but by cost of speed if they loose side torso (like Clan do but with bigger penalty).
All I talk about - make game longer not by structure buffing, armor changing, drop tonnage tweaking and weapons nerfing - but by changing one small thing - get rid of death penalty and replace it by huge speed penalty. That all. After that - give some clan mech armor quirks and take off some armor from IS mech.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

It is not about cost, nor is it about some mechs being better than other mechs. It is about that (one mech being better than the other) being perfectly fine, and about balancing the game differently. It doesn't matter how good your clan mech is because it has a finite value of "good" in it. For each "good" clan mech IS will bring the same amount of "good" on their side, be it one, or two, or ten mechs if necessary. This balancing is a proper one and benefits the overall gameplay greatly. For example you won't be hindering your team anymore when you bring a mech like say Vindicator, because instead of being matched by a top-tier clan medium on the other side you'll be matched with a clan equivalent of a Vindicator (a MystLynx for example). You will be able to bring "bad" mechs and "bad" loadouts and still have balanced matches etc. This is proper because it creates diversity, completely different tactics based on completely different number of mechs on both sides and is more fun in general.

But of course that'll make all mechs suddenly viable and PGI won't be able to switch meta on a whim in order to sell another mechpak, so it'll never happen.

- Yeap... make match making based on mech in team. Right but not working because there no such thing as that mech equal that mech and vise versa... Any of them can have great builds and engine won't count that. Like - Clan light can have enormous firepower but burn out. Or be cold and have twice firepower as IS. Or equal but longranged... hot to make that matchmaking? By model you cant do that. By build - also, too complex. Dragon bad comparing to any Clan mech.
That's why we need LFE engines... and make mech live longer or change death penalty - to make IS mech with low firepower and not great speed - competitive vs Clan in FP. Agree?
And yes... that make all mech viable and force players (especially new one from steam) buy more mechbays and try any mech with all builds even those which about 2 years collecting dust. And also give those players time to addict to game and play longer.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

This crap (and CW) is largely why I have stopped spending real $ on this game, because there is no assurance that what I buy today will even be playable tomorrow. And PGI gives no assurance that it isn't going to keep nerfing things into the ground at their whim. And I mean that literally...they are either doing this stuff on a whim (dart board) or they are doing it in cynical effort to drive people to buy the latest in power creeped mechs. To me it is one or the other for I cannot fathom ANY balance justifications for the vast majority of what they do in this regard. Data driven my a55.

But it is data driven. It is driven by data sourced from financials and player behavior. Once you look at it from that perspective, it becomes crystal clear.

Whether we like it or not is a different matter.

[PhoenixFire55]

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

- Oh my... I'm not talking about nerfing Clans... I'm talking to make IS mech not so fragile! Not make good mech worse as we see now... but make bad mech a bit better and good mech - live longer. That's the point. I don't want have Clan mech fragile as IS, I prefer have IS mech less fragile and live longer when using XL engine but by cost of speed if they loose side torso (like Clan do but with bigger penalty).

IS? Fragile? ... You must be playing a different game because IS structure quirks make IS mechs far more durable than anything clans can offer. And big XL engines provide you with enough torso turn rates to protect both side torsoes as well as CT far better than Std engines of the same tonnage. But of course if you stand still and stare at a Kodiak your IS mech (or any mech on that regard) is fragile.

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

All I talk about - make game longer not by structure buffing, armor changing, drop tonnage tweaking and weapons nerfing - but by changing one small thing - get rid of death penalty and replace it by huge speed penalty. That all. After that - give some clan mech armor quirks and take off some armor from IS mech.

If you are dying losing a side all the time then you are doing it wrong. Either in a mech that is completely not suitable for an XL engine or simply by facing the enemy too much. Mechs live long enough (all mechs) provided they are used properly, but if you are trying to peek against a firing line of several mechs you are going to be dead in a matter of seconds anyway, XL or not.

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

- Yeap... make match making based on mech in team. Right but not working because there no such thing as that mech equal that mech and vise versa... Any of them can have great builds and engine won't count that. Like - Clan light can have enormous firepower but burn out. Or be cold and have twice firepower as IS. Or equal but longranged... hot to make that matchmaking? By model you cant do that. By build - also, too complex. Dragon bad comparing to any Clan mech.

You might wanna do your homework before posting nonesense like this. Such system already exists in BT and is called BattleValue. It isn't directly applicable in MWO but can be used with some modifications. I've already mentioned it, but of course you don't bother to read so ...

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

That's why we need LFE engines... and make mech live longer or change death penalty - to make IS mech with low firepower and not great speed - competitive vs Clan in FP. Agree?

No, because IS is already competitive in QP, FP and whatever else P you can think of, both in terms of firepower and speed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

No, because IS is already competitive in QP, FP and whatever else P you can think of, both in terms of firepower and speed.

No they really aren't, they either lack firepower, range, and/or speed and really aren't near as durable these days because even being cored in a side puts you on the defensive unlike a Clan mech and the best IS stuff rarely has enough structure or suffers in other factors.

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

No they really aren't, they either lack firepower, range, and/or speed and really aren't near as durable these days because even being cored in a side puts you on the defensive unlike a Clan mech and the best IS stuff rarely has enough structure or suffers in other factors.

Ah, so thats why comp teams use Locusts, Griffins, Warhammers. Before that it was Oxides, BlackKnights, Grasshoppers, Maulers etc. For every "viable" clan mech there is a "viable" IS mech. Yeah, clan tends to have more ranged mechs and IS tends to have more brawler mechs that are viable, but it doesn't change the fact.

But if all you do is take timid shots from 800m away then yeah, clans OP plz nerf ...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ah, so thats why comp teams use Locusts, Griffins, Warhammers.

What team is primarily using Locusts over Cheetahs except for this new league where tonnage matters (and even then it is usually to squeeze a Kodiak or double up on Night Gyrs)?
Where are teams brawling constantly to where they use Griffins more than HBK-IICs?
What team is even bothering with Warhammers anymore especially after the Night Gyr is publicly available.
Whatever meta you think we are under is behind (apparently way behind considering the MWOWC was dominated by mostly Clan tech).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Before that it was Oxides, BlackKnights, Grasshoppers, Maulers

Yes, before the Kodiak forced the meta to adapt to its will, the IS did have the advantage slightly (you are missing the fact the Jenner IIC somewhat replaced the Oxide though), but that died with the Kodiak. Since then the only really relevant IS stuff has been Griffins for brawl drops and occasionally using a Whammy or Grasshopper.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Bud Crue]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ah, so thats why comp teams use Locusts, Griffins, Warhammers. Before that it was Oxides, BlackKnights, Grasshoppers, Maulers etc. For every "viable" clan mech there is a "viable" IS mech. Yeah, clan tends to have more ranged mechs and IS tends to have more brawler mechs that are viable, but it doesn't change the fact.

But if all you do is take timid shots from 800m away then yeah, clans OP plz nerf ...

Viable. Interesting choice of word that. Yes a Firestarter is a "viable" light. But it is most certainly NOT comparable to an Arctic Cheetah in terms of its competitiveness. Sure in the right hands a competitive tier player can make anything viable but of the competitive matches I have observed, far more often than not those folks are taking clan mechs (at least for those few dozen MRBC matches that I have watched...I don't pretend to watch them all).

[Bombast]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ah, so thats why comp teams use Locusts, Griffins, Warhammers. Before that it was Oxides, BlackKnights, Grasshoppers, Maulers etc. For every "viable" clan mech there is a "viable" IS mech. Yeah, clan tends to have more ranged mechs and IS tends to have more brawler mechs that are viable, but it doesn't change the fact.

But if all you do is take timid shots from 800m away then yeah, clans OP plz nerf ...

3 out of every 4 mechs that showed up in the 2016 Tournament Final were Clan. Five Clan chassis were used - Only 2 Inner Sphere Chassis made it.

I really wouldn't use the competitive scene to claim both sides are viable.

Edited by Bombast, 30 January 2017 - 09:50 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Viable. Interesting choice of word that. Yes a Firestarter is a "viable" light.

Eh ... not its not. Not by a long shot. Only viable lights are currently Locust and ACH (latter only due to ECM).

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Sure in the right hands a competitive tier player can make anything viable

Eh ... no. He can effectively use it in PUGs but he'll still do better in an actual "viable" mech.

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

but of the competitive matches I have observed, far more often than not those folks are taking clan mechs (at least for those few dozen MRBC matches that I have watched...I don't pretend to watch them all).

Meta shifts all the time thanks to never ending quirking and nerfhammering. For all we know all mechs will be useless come March epic patch ...

[Bud Crue]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Eh ... not its not. Not by a long shot. Only viable lights are currently Locust and ACH (latter only due to ECM).



Eh ... no. He can effectively use it in PUGs but he'll still do better in an actual "viable" mech.



Meta shifts all the time thanks to never ending quirking and nerfhammering. For all we know all mechs will be useless come March epic patch ...

Thank you for making the point clear.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

Meta shifts all the time thanks to never ending quirking and nerfhammering. For all we know all mechs will be useless come March epic patch ...

What happens in the future is irrelevant, what we know now is that ever since the Kodiak dropped Clan tech has been the dominant tech in comp, especially after several competitive IS chassis have been continually nerfed (with rescale and various quirk nerfs) such that very few are even relevant in comp.

[Tiantara]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

IS? Fragile? ... You must be playing a different game because IS structure quirks make IS mechs far more durable than anything clans can offer. And big XL engines provide you with enough torso turn rates to protect both side torsoes as well as CT far better than Std engines of the same tonnage. But of course if you stand still and stare at a Kodiak your IS mech (or any mech on that regard) is fragile.

- Yeap. Fragile because of easy loosing side torso when XL have less or same speed as Clan mech. because having bigger engine = less weapon, more heat, less armor. And quirks wont help you if you being shot from greater distance by 2-3 enemy mech in one spot. Also IS mech have less weapons and loose it cause bigger difference in firepower as well. Big XL provide better turn rates, but not protect from huge one point impact, not save you from LRM rain and do nothing with close combat SSRM impact or short range massive blow also. And I talk not about KDK. same situation with all mech when you strictly fight IS mech against Clan. If you lucky enough have good team - you play and win. If not - you take shot from own team in back side torso and die (low armor in back right?) If your team not great and 4 players don't know how to use XL - you loose besides of your own skill. It's a team play game... so not all can be great in your team and weak point of mech become problem more the less skiled players in your team. What? Suggest leave unit and go to endless journey for searching better one? I like to play with gamers which I know... And in same time I don't want see some of them dead again in the start because of XL.
So... All IS light mech just glass comparing to any Clan. One lucky shot and they off play. Most of medium IS mech with big enough XL engine just have no room for good weapon. HBK, Centurion and many other medium come to mind. As well as bad mech for XL like Crabs, Trebuchet, Vindicator and Wolverine. BlackJack become a bit better as well as Cicada - but they also die quick from focused clan fire if go to duel. Some Clan mech just great to killing IS mech even by stock build.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

If you are dying losing a side all the time then you are doing it wrong. Either in a mech that is completely not suitable for an XL engine or simply by facing the enemy too much. Mechs live long enough (all mechs) provided they are used properly, but if you are trying to peek against a firing line of several mechs you are going to be dead in a matter of seconds anyway, XL or not.

- I loose side torso not because of lack of piloting skill. Sometimes it's lag in game. Sometimes it's friendly fire. Duel 1 vs 2 clan always end bad. Yeah, mostly I prefer zombie mech and those who can shoot on really close distance or max long. Both of them nice work on STD engines. But what about mech which need speed, but they bad with XL? What about mech which use XL and have less firepower than they can have and compete with Clan? What about tier 5-3 players who take XL mech and make battle 8 vs 12 because they die? As for me - my mech based on cold really effective builds which works in good team and let me handle some situation with not skilled team also. But it's me. I tested weapon on PTS, I tried enough builds for extreme play and for novice pilots as well. And I remember frustration from XL mech which was blown up at first second of enemy encounter! That's why I understand players who cant level skill enough because of time higher than tier 3. Those players who played most and fill gaps in queue. They try IS mech, feel bad after death from "one shot" and go to clan. All go to clan and make population so high, that we get not nice tonnage change. I simply want have more player in game and with them - more teammate and enemy as well. And that can be possible if XL mech won't die from side torso loose.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

You might wanna do your homework before posting nonesense like this. Such system already exists in BT and is called BattleValue. It isn't directly applicable in MWO but can be used with some modifications. I've already mentioned it, but of course you don't bother to read so ...

- And? Bringing here dice count after shot, or make match making based on weapons in load-up? Something what can't implement without huge modification can't work right.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

No, because IS is already competitive in QP, FP and whatever else P you can think of, both in terms of firepower and speed.

- It is not. Since we have IS vs Clan only. No need think about mech only from tier 1 high. You already have no enough players to fill the queue in FP because not everyone have high tier in their mass! That's why we have all tiers in FP and pilots who just ballast in game. You really think that you can win the game when 1\3 of your team not skilled enough to run "great and powerful meta mech"? I like the joke about firepower and speed. Speed - maybe. But fire power 1\2 less than Clan... Take calculator and make match. Take down side torso of heavy or medium mech with full armor need 2-3 shots... In same time take both side torso or side torso and center torso of clan mech - need 5-8 shots. If you get close enough.
For example... Centurion with XL260 have 30-48 firepower with really low ammo and die fast because it's arm not shielding enough. There no room to place enough ammo or weapon. I can take any mech which I play or build and nearly half of them suffer from free tonnage or slots after using XL so what firepower do you mean?
If you have no problem that doesn't mean that everyone don't have them.
It's same like if I say - "HBK Grid Iron great mech because I can kill any Clan medium on it in duel". So all who have problem with that mech and I know many of them, say - "No way, that bad mech and we too often die on it". Who right?
Nerf mech because 6 players play good on it or make other mech a bit better to make them less easy targets for those 6 players. What you choose?

Edited by Tiantara, 30 January 2017 - 10:35 AM.