181 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

their are many Topics popping up about Balance,
but one has to Ask what is the Most Important,

so if you had to Choose one Balance Item,
what would it be? what would you Choose?

• Balance is Good Right now?
  
• Engines Balance(STD/XL/C-XL)?
  
• Upgrade Balance(Endo/Ferro)?
  
• Heat Sink Balance?(SH/DHS/C-DHS)
  
• Weapon Stats Balance(Dam/Cycle/Crit/Ton)?

What do you feel is most Important Right now?
(feeling Balance is in a Good Place is also a Justifiable Answer)

=(Poll)=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 January 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[RestosIII]

Engine balance.

[Y E O N N E]

Shockingly, I think weapon stats are a bigger deal than engines. Even in the game we have nkw, ebgines can be somewhat mitigated with weapon selection and piloting ability. Nothing can save you from being unable able to engage at the same distances with comparable firepower or pack that giant, light-weight, high-DPS small laser spam.

Naturally, though, there is a feedback loop.

[cazidin]

Engine balance comes up quite often and while it is a factor, I agree with Yeonne that weapon balance is a bigger issue. The IS will always have structure or armor quirks to compensate for XL, and will be more durable if they chose a standard engine, but Clan weapons are lighter, have better range and deal more damage. That's the way it was in TT but there has to be some way to balance the two out without assymetric matches.

[Battlemaster56]

I'm torn between weapon and engine balance, but ultimately hit engine balance but would change if somehow weapon balance is a major factor.

[Metus regem]

This is a tricky thing, as they took two naturally unbalanced sides, that were balanced by asymmetric methods (BV/Tonnage/C-bill/Numbers), and placed them in an environment where they needed parity.

As it stands right now, the balance isn't horrible, but it's not perfect either. One cannot properly balance the engines with out invalidating later IS engines, namely the LFE. As it stands I see three major problems when it comes to balance, crit slots for cFF, cEndo and cDHS vs their IS counterparts. Half slots required for cFF and cEndo are just as game breaking here as it was in TT, 2 slot DHS is also a big deal, thanks to the extra cooling effects of water, both here and TT... How they could fix these issues, I have no idea, and I would leave that for people better suited and skilled for answers to come up with.

[Bombast]

Well, the problem is, they don't (And probably can't) balance anything against it's opposite partner. How the game is balanced is pretty much...

IS Weapons/Quirks vs. Clan Construction Tech

Right now, on a Quick Play level... I don't think the balance is too far off. Most mechs dance around in the middle together. But at the top sit the top Clan mechs, and at the bottom site mostly bottom IS mechs. And that has more to do with sheer weight efficiency than anything else (Ok, Hardpoints help a ton too).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Shockingly, I think weapon stats are a bigger deal than engines. Even in the game we have nkw, ebgines can be somewhat mitigated with weapon selection and piloting ability. Nothing can save you from being unable able to engage at the same distances with comparable firepower or pack that giant, light-weight, high-DPS small laser spam.

Naturally, though, there is a feedback loop.

It depends on what type of weapon you are looking at, ERLL/LPL boats like the BLR-2C and GHR-5P would definitely benefit from better engines (since they would replace the structure quirks) than they would weapon buffs. Same with brawlers like Griffins and Atlases.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

I don't understand the question, really. If I have two cars and the goal is to make them both go equally fast, but not as fast as possible, which factor is most important?

• horsepower
  
• air resistance
  
• mass
  
• friction from wheels

It doesn't matter. If one car is too fast, increase mass or air resistance or friction, or reduce horsepower. Who cares? Of course, it's slightly unpractical to make the wheels 100 times wider in order to make a Bugatti Veyron as slow as a Toyota Prius, but that's not really the kind of problem that we have in MWO. It's not necessary to make IS weapons 100 times more powerful to compensate for Clan XL engines.


The only way that it matters is by not breaking the things heavily connected to lore. E.g. it would be stupid if Clan ER lasers had shorter range. Lore doesn't say anything about ROF, however. So you can tweak that.

These things are all connected, so I don't really perceive one Clan advantage as particularly problematic. Again, if one car is too fast, there's any number of ways to solve that.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 30 January 2017 - 05:50 AM.

[nehebkau]

For the first time in 4 and 1/2 years I am seriously considering quitting because of the ongoing balance issues -- made worse with the introduction of clan battlemechs that didn't have the limitations of locked endo, ferro and engine size. PGI must normalize IS and Clan XL engines.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

The only way that it cares is by not breaking the things heavily connected to lore. E.g. it would be stupid if Clan ER lasers had shorter range. Lore doesn't say anything about ROF, however. So you can tweak that.

I mean as far as Clan ethos and balance goes, it makes more sense for IS ER Lasers to outrange Clan ERs, but not to out burst them (heavy lasers are much more inline with Clan ethos).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

I mean as far as Clan ethos and balance goes, it makes more sense for IS ER Lasers to outrange Clan ERs, but not to out burst them (heavy lasers are much more inline with Clan ethos).

Perhaps I should have been more clear. It doesn't make sense for Clan ER lasers to have more range than standard IS lasers.

That being said, it would be weird for Clans to develop longer ranged weapons in the first place, if they were so vehemently opposed to long range combat. Some things in lore strike me as less significant to MWO than others. (Zellbrigen problems, for example)

[Bud Crue]

None of the above.

Hard point location is biggest issue with balance both IS v CLan and intra tech as well

then ISXL v CXL., then crit size disparity, then weight.

HP location that favors clan: Kodiak vs Atlas? Obviously Kodiak.
Number? Dire v Atlas: Dire.

Go down the line for every class. Top performers are clan. Top performers have highest and/or most hard points and because they are clan the tonnage and space to use them.

Engines are secondary to that imho.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 January 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 26 January 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

Perhaps I should have been more clear. It doesn't make sense for Clan ER lasers to have more range than standard IS lasers.

That makes more sense, standard lasers should be compared more to heavy lasers imo.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

That makes more sense, standard lasers should be compared more to heavy lasers imo.

agreed, though i hope they take the 2x System i used in my 3060 weapon Topic,
i worry heavy Lasers will have way too long Duration for having such short range,

[Andi Nagasia]

Bud Crue, on 26 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

None of the above.

Hard point location is biggest issue with balance both IS v CLan and intra tech as well

then ISXL v CXL., then crit size disparity, then weight.

HP location that favors clan: Kodiak vs Atlas? Obviously Kodiak.
Number? Dire v Atlas: Dire.

Go down the line for every class. Top performers are clan. Top performers have highest and/or most hard points and because they are clan the tonnage and space to use them.

Engines are secondary to that imho.

True, but Height of your hard Points only matter in some Cases,
when Hill Peaking(Vertical Obstructions) Yes its a necessity, as you can better protect your self wail returning fire,
but in a City Scape or Urban environment(Horizontal Obstructions), High Mounts arnt as Important,

[Duke Nedo]

Why not both?

Engines and Weapons/equipment... can be summarized as: balance techs first. I really think both needs to be addressed at the same time, looking at the whole picture.

[Bud Crue]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 January 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

True, but Height of your hard Points only matter in some Cases,
when Hill Peaking(Vertical Obstructions) Yes its a necessity, as you can better protect your self wail returning fire,
but in a City Scape or Urban environment(Horizontal Obstructions), High Mounts arnt as Important,

My observation stands. The best mechs across and within techs are those having the highest hard points and/or the most. It may be that such things aren't as important in certain circumstances, but in most circumstances in this game they are important.

A Nova with 2 hard points would suck. A Hunchback IIc with the same 2 hard points but located at the tops of its shoulders becomes the best mech in its class. Now give that Nova 10 hard points and it is suddenly up there as well.

Do this comparison within techs and you will identify the best mechs on each side. Do this comparison across techs and you will see why the clans are dominating atm.

Engines differences are secondary to that.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 January 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bud Crue, on 26 January 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

My observation stands. The best mechs across and within techs are those having the highest hard points and/or the most. It may be that such things aren't as important in certain circumstances, but in most circumstances in this game they are important.

A Nova with 2 hard points would suck. A Hunchback IIc with the same 2 hard points but located at the tops of its shoulders becomes the best mech in its class. Now give that Nova 10 hard points and it is suddenly up there as well.

Do this comparison within techs and you will identify the best mechs on each side. Do this comparison across techs and you will see why the clans are dominating atm.

Engines differences are secondary to that.

i completely agree,
their should be a balance between how many hardpoints a mech gets and where those hard points are,
but thats more of a Mech Disparity Discussion, this is more of a Faction Disparity Discussion,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 26 January 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[nehebkau]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 January 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

i completely agree,
their should be a balance between how many hardpoints a mech gets and where those hard points are,
but thats more of a Mech Balance Discussion, this is more of a Faction Disparity Discussion,

well it is a faction balance issue given that you can adjust your mech's loadout to make the most effective use of it's high mounted weapons points (omnimechs) -- maybe not the highest priority but it is part of the issue. Add to that the ability of one faction to place higher damage weapons/weight in those high mounted points -- you get more disparity (IIC vs IS-regular mechs).