310 replies to this topic

[Nik Reaper]

MacClearly, on 30 January 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but your position appears to be that because it is the best Kit Fox, it is pay for power. My assertion is that because you can get something equal, this is more akin to a novelty mech. It is for people who are krazy for Kit Fox, and the hero is the best one.

So I am clearly Ok with this business model because it provides value for a mech especially if a person happens to be a huge fan and it still provides equal power even if it is available on a separate or different chassis altogether.

Well, at least we are back on the right track, relative power.

I pointed to summoner with "while it was good" knowing it's not as good right now, but it's still better then without those omnipods. Most things get "rebalanced" eventually and one big problem with the method PGI is using is that they sell power for a limited time meaning that every time a contender appears there will be an amount of time of inbalance that for the most part benefits those who buy in, and as a game that needs people who do not buy in ( as often or ever ) this is not a good thing for the sustainability of the game, the effect is more pronounced the larger the divide between the power sold and the power available for the grind, people are know to stop playing over those things, ei. kodiak 3 , and when it is cbill available it quickly becomes brought down closer to the level.

I't not a farfetched idea that players like a leveled playing field.

So now I'm interested where would you draw a line and say this is "bull excrement" over a mech of some sort being a hero, what, how much more "benefits" do you perceive as too much?

Also most here would agree that this is not so much about the kitfox with purifier ominpods being op in it's tonnage range, as it is about the fact that this could happen to any omnimech at any point, what happens when an over-performer gets even more advantageous omnipods? We fear this is the direction PGI is headed and we are letting them now how we feel about it.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 30 January 2017 - 10:56 PM.

[MacClearly]

Nik Reaper, on 30 January 2017 - 10:51 PM, said:

Well, at least we are back on the right track, relative power.

I pointed to summoner with "while it was good" knowing it's not as good right now, but it's still better then without those omnipods. Most things get "rebalanced" eventually and one big problem with the method PGI is using is that they sell power for a limited time meaning that every time a contender appears there will be an amount of time of inbalance that for the most part benefits those who buy in, and as a game that needs people who do not buy in ( as often or ever ) this is not a good thing for the sustainability of the game, the effect is more pronounced the larger the divide between the power sold and the power available for the grind, people are know to stop playing over those things, ei. kodiak 3 , and when it is cbill available it quickly becomes brought down closer to the level.

I't not a farfetched idea that players like a leveled playing field.

So now I'm interested where would you draw a line and say this is "bull excrement" over a mech of some sort being a hero, what, how much more "benefits" do you perceive as too much?

Also most here would agree that this is not so much about the kitfox with purifier ominpods being op in it's tonnage range, as it is about the fact that this could happen to any omnimech at any point, what happens when an over-performer gets even more advantageous omnipods? We fear this is the direction PGI is headed and we are letting them now how we feel about it.

Again I would point out to anyone making that argument that if you look at what PGI did with the various Clan Hero's, it appears to me that they were obviously careful with the Warrant and the Lacerator. Those two seem to have been intentionally given interesting builds that did not blow them up considering where the two of them are in the game. Yet they chose to add some value to mechs that were in need of something to make them interesting with the Purifier and the Ultraviolet.

This is a for profit company as well. So while there may be some that want to do whatever they can to keep PGI in check, the real influence is what will the paying customer accept while keeping enough bodies in the game for them to shoot. So folks freak out about the Summoner and PGI reacts...just enough.

[Lily from animove]

somewhen in the past when no omniheros existed I said that hero or champion omnis should only be some with special camo and XP or cbill bonus, and never have own pods because that would make things semi p2w because of how omnimechs work.
And now we have that.

Only solution is to sell hero omnipods for cbills so peopel can use them on other mechs. But then possible CT and 8/8 boni still can be an issue.

Edited by Lily from animove, 31 January 2017 - 01:34 AM.

[G4LV4TR0N]

After reading all of this I came to simple conclusion:


People lose in Kit Fox because they don't know how to play Kit Fox. The Purifier is just an excuse. Because simply, as an owner of Purifier and every other Kit Fox I can run any variant. And I can win with any build, even when running four flamers or max LRM's. If you understand that MWO as game is not best in depicting Battletech universe and Kit Fox is a lore mech just like Urbanmech is lore mech, you will understand that having fun is more important than winning. And when we talk about competitive gaming, where winning matters, as I pointed out - I am yet to see any Kit Fox there. I've seen some unsuccessful Adder attempts but no Kit Fox. Perhaps in future, after new skill tree?

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 31 January 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

Only if they are sold for real money would they meet that, so no, not every other mech is P2W. Hero mechs as unique mechs that are paywalled was a decision that was always going to be plagued with this issue and has shown in the past that they are fine with selling power (whether intentional or not is another story) which is extremely problematic. Heroes should've been basically like Champions are and not unique, or at least be c-bill available if they really wanted to keep the uniqueness.

Again, not being able to buy everything with C-bills is NOT pay to win... It's pay to have and there is a big difference. You might not like the difference, but that is not the topic. I am not saying you are wrong in your suggestion about how heroes should be.. Honestly i really don't care that much.. If i want a mech perhaps i will spend a few bucks and get it eventually. I don't have as many issues playing a little here and there in a game i enjoy when i can play with out spending a dime if i want and not be at any disadvantage. In fact it kinda feels like having tons of mechs and options does the exact opposite.. You spend time playing mechs you are not that good at, or don't have 1k's of drops in it. verse doing what i've been doing for months.. playing a few matches in each mech just to level,, and hoping around trying to get into a grove.

But then again, i come from the time that online games cost me 15 bucks just to play.. I much prefer this pricing model, costs me far less than just a single online game sub.

But basically you are conflating two entirely different issues.


as for this high hard point issue.. that is entirely due to map design. If we had more maps that you didn't go over hills and instead around, or sides those points wouldn't even be an issue.. Especially if they made areas that you had firing lanes, Lower. Something like an overpass or what ever.. Mechs with low slung arms would have an advantage as they could shoot under, while high hard point mechs might not be able to even fire from certain points.. But that is all map design, and not a fact of Over powered, or P2W.

Personally i would like to see a lot more maps that don't rely on peaking over a hill, and instead around a corner, or under something.. But i can hear it now.. Cataphracts are unfair, they can shoot me in the crotch and i can't even return fire!!! OP LOW SLUNG ARMS!!! NERF!!! The spot on HPG, under the ramps up to the top are a prime example of this. (the ones a commando and locusts i think are the only ones that can fit)

But in the end, if i didn't complain that the timber and stormcrow were P2W when they were behind a wall and i was slugging away in my HBK and pre-quirk thunder bolts, i am certainly not going to sweat the "purifier"

Edited by JC Daxion, 31 January 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[Mystere]

JC Daxion, on 31 January 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Again, not being able to buy everything with C-bills is NOT pay to win... It's pay to have and there is a big difference. You might not like the difference, but that is not the topic. I am not saying you are wrong in your suggestion about how heroes should be.. Honestly i really don't care that much.. If i want a mech perhaps i will spend a few bucks and get it eventually. I don't have as many issues playing a little here and there in a game i enjoy when i can play with out spending a dime if i want and not be at any disadvantage. In fact it kinda feels like having tons of mechs and options does the exact opposite.. You spend time playing mechs you are not that good at, or don't have 1k's of drops in it. verse doing what i've been doing for months.. playing a few matches in each mech just to level,, and hoping around trying to get into a grove.

But then again, i come from the time that online games cost me 15 bucks just to play.. I much prefer this pricing model, costs me far less than just a single online game sub.

But basically you are conflating two entirely different issues.


as for this high hard point issue.. that is entirely due to map design. If we had more maps that you didn't go over hills and instead around, or sides those points wouldn't even be an issue.. Especially if they made areas that you had firing lanes, Lower. Something like an overpass or what ever.. Mechs with low slung arms would have an advantage as they could shoot under, while high hard point mechs might not be able to even fire from certain points.. But that is all map design, and not a fact of Over powered, or P2W.

Personally i would like to see a lot more maps that don't rely on peaking over a hill, and instead around a corner, or under something.. But i can hear it now.. Cataphracts are unfair, they can shoot me in the crotch!!! OP LOW SLUNG ARMS!!!

And which is why in many balancing discussions I drop in with this:

Mystere, on 26 January 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Who said balance should be based on just the first three and not at least all of the following?

• Mechs
  
• weapons
  
• equipment
  
• forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and IS vs. Clan
  
• maps
  
• numbers
  
• tonnage
  
• game modes
  
• victory conditions
  
• rewards

Or does everyone still stubbornly insist on the current boneheaded course of action being taken, which has failed in the last four years or so?

and which I think is also applicable here.

And as wonderful side effects, we also get variety and depth -- things this game sorely lacks.

Edited by Mystere, 31 January 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 31 January 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Again, not being able to buy everything with C-bills is NOT pay to win...

It is pay to win if those variant that CANNOT be bought with c-bills provide A GAMEPLAY ADVANTAGE.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[MacClearly]

Lily from animove, on 31 January 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

somewhen in the past when no omniheros existed I said that hero or champion omnis should only be some with special camo and XP or cbill bonus, and never have own pods because that would make things semi p2w because of how omnimechs work.
And now we have that.

Only solution is to sell hero omnipods for cbills so peopel can use them on other mechs. But then possible CT and 8/8 boni still can be an issue.

Far from the only solution. As long as there is an option that exists, be it another mech or otherwise, it is not pay to win. So since the Artic Cheetah is not behind a paywall, having a hero make a subpar mech be decent, shouldn't be a big issue.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

It is pay to win if those variant that CANNOT be bought with c-bills provide A GAMEPLAY ADVANTAGE.

Given we're dealing with an arguably trash-level mech and chassis, I'm not going to sweat it. There are bigger fish to fry.

Is this KitFox really such a big deal?

Edited by Mystere, 31 January 2017 - 02:56 PM.

[MacClearly]

Mystere, on 31 January 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

And which is why in many balancing discussions I drop in with this:

Who said balance should be based on just the first three and not at least all of the following?

• Mechs
  
• weapons
  
• equipment
  
• forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and IS vs. Clan
  
• maps
  
• numbers
  
• tonnage
  
• game modes
  
• victory conditions
  
• rewards

Or does everyone still stubbornly insist on the current boneheaded course of action being taken, which has failed in the last four years or so?


and which I think is also applicable here.

And as wonderful side effects, we also get variety and depth -- things this game sorely lacks.

While some of those ideas may or may not be interesting do you not think it is fair to consider balance in the constraints of what we actually have? Especially the forced IS vs. IS etc. suggestion, since FW can already function that way and quick play should (of coarse just my opinion but it's based on how it is functioning right now) be an open freestyle mode. It doesn't make sense to me that quick play was ever intended as depth mode or that it should since that should be what faction play is for. I think it is unfair to want total immersion in ever part of the game and especially considering age of the game and current population it is likely not even close to being an option.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 31 January 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

There are bigger fish to fry.

So we ignore that problem until it hits us in the face when they release an OP hero on an meta chassis......yeah, that sounds smart (Scorch comes real close to being that mech too). Sorry, but being unable to run a better version of a "trash" tier mech is problematic regardless, especially if those options are fairly transformative for a mech (like those loyalty pods for the Summoner).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 03:01 PM.

[MacClearly]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

It is pay to win if those variant that CANNOT be bought with c-bills provide A GAMEPLAY ADVANTAGE.

Since you can go buy an Arctic Cheetah which is better, it is not a gameplay advantage. You can also go buy a Kodiak 3 and blow that Purifier to bits with cbills.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Since you can go buy an Arctic Cheetah which is better, it is not a gameplay advantage.

It is a gameplay advantage within the context of a Kit Fox, so yes, it is a gameplay advantage. If I can build a better version of the Kit Fox with paywalled content, that is a problem regardless of whether or not there is a better mech.

That is akin to paywalled abilities in a MOBA or paywalled guns in TF2/Overwatch that add an advantage to that hero/class regardless of their current stature within the meta. Notice how afaik, none of them use that practice at all? There is a reason for that, because it is P2W.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 31 January 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[Mystere]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

While some of those ideas may or may not be interesting do you not think it is fair to consider balance in the constraints of what we actually have? Especially the forced IS vs. IS etc. suggestion, since FW can already function that way and quick play should (of coarse just my opinion but it's based on how it is functioning right now) be an open freestyle mode. It doesn't make sense to me that quick play was ever intended as depth mode or that it should since that should be what faction play is for. I think it is unfair to want total immersion in ever part of the game and especially considering age of the game and current population it is likely not even close to being an option.

The other part of my "wants" is a Solaris VII mode. That is where such an "open freestyle mode" should exist.

Thus QP should be eliminated and properly redistributed to "Community Warfare", "Solaris VII", and "Training Academy". It was supposed to be a mere filler until CW was better developed, not the main MWO game mode. I see it as the "ball and chain" hindering the betterment of the game.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I like how this devolved into an argument about why high mounts don't matter..

Try hill peeking in a dire wolf versus hill peeking in a kodiak and then come back to me

Try hill peeking in a timber wolf versus loyalty summoner or hellbringer while you're at it

How about hill peeking in a stromcrow rather than a hunchback IIC

Then tell me high mounts won't matter on a regular kit fox versus one with the purifier omni pods

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

So we ignore that problem until it hits us in the face when they release an OP hero on an meta chassis......yeah, that sounds smart (Scorch comes real close to being that mech too). Sorry, but being unable to run a better version of a "trash" tier mech is problematic regardless, especially if those options are fairly transformative for a mech (like those loyalty pods for the Summoner).

Yes. From my POV, it is currently an insignificant problem when compared to all the other problems MWO has. PGI, and us as well, will all be better served if the latter are dealt with first.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 31 January 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

Thus QP should be eliminated and properly redistributed to "Community Warfare", "Solaris VII", and "Training Academy". It was supposed to be a mere filler until CW was better developed, not the main MWO game mode. I see it as the "ball and chain" hindering the betterment of the game.

The betterment of the game would be getting rid of CW or making QP just have some impact on the faction map (like win percentages of faction players causes some shift on the map or something) and just adding a 6v6 ranked mode.

Mystere, on 31 January 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

Yes. From my POV, it is currently an insignificant problem when compared to all the other problems MWO has. PGI, and us as well, will all be better served if the latter are dealt with first.

Considering they are using it as a method for income, it is a high priority problem. Things that are antagonistic towards free players tends to be problematic with attracting new players and attracting (and keeping) new players is probably one of the biggest issues with MWO.

[MacClearly]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 January 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

It is a gameplay advantage within the context of a Kit Fox, so yes, it is a gameplay advantage. If I can build a better version of the Kit Fox with paywalled content, that is a problem regardless of whether or not there is a better mech.

That is akin to paywalled abilities in a MOBA or paywalled guns in TF2/Overwatch that add an advantage to that hero/class regardless of their current stature within the meta. Notice how afaik, none of them use that practice at all? There is a reason for that, because it is P2W.

No being able to make a garbage mech playable when there are other mechs that more than viable doesn't make it pay to win at all. No one is dominating the game unfairly in a Purifier. You may not like that the best version is behind a paywall but it isn't an OP mech.

[Mystere]

Snazzy Dragon, on 31 January 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

I like how this devolved into an argument about why high mounts don't matter..

Try hill peeking in a dire wolf versus hill peeking in a kodiak and then come back to me

Try hill peeking in a timber wolf versus loyalty summoner or hellbringer while you're at it

How about hill peeking in a stromcrow rather than a hunchback IIC

Then tell me high mounts won't matter on a regular kit fox versus one with the purifier omni pods

Add many more maps such that 90% or more maps do not allow hill peaking (e.g. highly-urban maps with skyscrapers) and the problem is as good as solved. As an added benefit, we have more variety in maps. And as an added benefit to better map variety, we (hopefully) have more variety in gameplay.

Does anyone else see how that works?

[Dirus Nigh]

Machine gun kit fox is the new meta. suck it up scrubs.