22 replies to this topic

[L1f3H4ck]

Hi there

You know the threads, they're as old as these forums. They're usually annoying, devolve into people basically all-capping YOU'RE WRONG!!! until everyone loses interest and moves on. Either someone got wasted by lurms and vents his frustration by demanding an immediate nerf, or they just got tired of watching that LRM Atlas being the useless last man standing over and over again. Those bloody lurms! What are they? OP? A terribad noob weapon? Obviously, they can't be both at the same time. What is entirely possible though, is that they are neither.

LRMs are unique in that they don't require a line of sight, which comes with several advantages. Your target can't shoot back at you if you use a team mate's lock or a UAV, and you're not hindered by obstacles, be they terrain or your mates. As with all missiles, they don't have any damage drop-off, so whenever they hit, they do full damage, not like some sniper Ravens who sit back at maximum distance and basically tickle you (#followthebluelaser). Great! On the other hand, their flight time gives your target time to maneuver into cover, they spread their damage all over the mech, which isn't unique btw, and if a brawler gets close to you, you're defenseless, even with the Clan version. Darn!

You know all of that, I'm sure. What puzzles me is the ongoing comparison to other weapons. Here's a quick way to declare LRMs useless: Compare them to a large pulse laser. They will come out short, because they're frankly horrible at being a large pulse laser, or any other LOS weapon. On the other hand, you can easily flip it around and see how good that laser is at doing an LRM's job, and the simple truth is: It can't.

So what are LRMs good at, what can they accomplish which no other weapon in the game can? The answer ofc is fire support, specifically strategic fire support. Look, I know that getting killed by lurms is a very frustrating experience. Especially since everyone claims that all the pros know how to counter them by staying in cover, getting close and murdering that pesky lurmboat, it feels a little like getting killed by them is your own fault, and sometimes it is. What you need to understand however, is that vs. a skilled LRM flinger, it wasn't, you just got jedi-mindtricked and you were already a dead mech walking a minute ago.

Skills? With LRMs? No way, right? They just sit back, wait or even beg for locks and fire at every red dot that moves, don't they? Well, a lot of people do that, and that's what we call noobish gameplay. A lot of accusations leveled at LRMs are straw-man arguments, so lets bust some myths here, shall we?

Just because you CAN fire from 1000m away, doesn't mean you have to. The closer you are, the quicker your missiles will reach their target and reduce the enemies reaction time.

Just because you CAN fire over an obstacle, nothing is stopping you from shuffling in and sharing some damage.

Just because you don't have to maneuver into a firing position, doesn't mean you shouldn't, and here's where things get really interesting, because good LRM play requires constant re-positioning.

You see, I mentioned strategic fire-support. When you're driving an LRM boat, the whole game changes, so your state of mind needs to change too. It becomes less of a shooter, it becomes a strategy game, think Tower Defense. Where is my team, where is the enemy team? Where are they moving to? Where will the engagement take place? When and where will my team get a view on the enemy team and, most importantly, where do you need to be when that happens? You need to focus much more on your minimap and less on your viewscreen, because you shouldn't aim too much for a target, but for an area. If you do it right, you basically deny your enemy certain routes, or force them to take a route you want them to. Your goal should be to put the reds between a rock and a hard place, giving them a choice between your missiles, your buddies guns or a retreat. And if you manage to make the last option impossible... Dead mech walking.

On top of that, You need to focus on your whole team, not just one group. Your scouts may run into trouble or your main force gets stung in the back. LRMs excel at switching support fire from one engagement to another, with every other weapon you need to do some serious maneuvering to do that. But you can only do it properly if you positioned yourself beforehand. Unless you figure out their strategic value, you will never be able to use LRMs to their full potential. You can never beat your enemy with better aim, but you can out-smart them.

Not all is great though. Another argument I see a lot, is that they might work well in low-tier solo queue, but are horrible in organized faction warfare. And to quote Gman129, since you never know whether you’ll be fighting on Alpine Peaks or Frozen City, the solo queue meta has always revolved around “what is the most effective most often, and is never not effective”. There is some truth here.

( From his meta guide http://metamechs.com/mwo-guides/meta/ )

There are maps which are horrible for LRMs, the worst offenders being HPG Manifold and Crimson Strait. But even on Plexus, if the enemy has a solid roof over its head, they're safe from the rain. All you can do is wait for them to come out. If you're lucky, you can communicate that to your team and play area denial. But especially in the solo queue, coordination is hit-and-miss and you might up being useless.

When you do have a coordinated team, a popular and successful playstyle consists of aggressive, concentrated pushes, focusing the enemy down with spike damage. I've seen teams using LRMs in a coordinated way, and they can absolutely wreck, but you have to do one or the other, those tactics don't mix well. Moving, focusing and killing an opposing force becomes more efficient with the level of coordination within the team, up to the point where players don't even need to talk anymore, they just have that chemistry where everyone knows when to push, hold or form a firing line. They don't need a mech with a strategic weapon system, because their playstyle is all fast and tactical, and they will rightly tell you to leave your lurmboat in the hangar and get with the program.

My bottom line? They're fine. They offer some variety to the game and make it more interesting, for the player using them and for the enemy team as well. They're less reliable and straight forward than other weapons, but that pendulum swings both ways, from dominating the match to being utterly useless. There are situations where bringing them is great, in others it might be the wrongest of calls.

And finally, can everyone calm down about the issue, just a little? Let people enjoy things, even if you don't.

[RestosIII]

Unless they get a re-work buffing LoS firing characteristics, I'm never going to count them as "fine", but my crusading for a rework is long gone, due to the fact that I just don't care enough any more.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Nope. All weapons should be semiautomatic battle rifles with instant travel time, 1-shot heatshot kills, and zero reticule bloom for no-scope-on-the-run.

Hehehe. Nah, I like LRMs, and you're right: I like the variety they offer.

[L1f3H4ck]

RestosIII, on 27 January 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

Unless they get a re-work buffing LoS firing characteristics, I'm never going to count them as "fine", but my crusading for a rework is long gone, due to the fact that I just don't care enough any more.

You can already improve firing on your own locks with TAG lasers and Advanced Target Decay. That said, I'm all for lowering the firing arc for LOS volleys, thus reducing flight time. It would buff them and reward players for not hiding all the time.

[RestosIII]

Frechdachs, on 27 January 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

You can already improve firing on your own locks with TAG lasers and Advanced Target Decay. That said, I'm all for lowering the firing arc for LOS volleys, thus reducing flight time. It would buff them and reward players for not hiding all the time.

Honestly, my dream changes to LRMs would be keeping the non-LOS firing system the same, but when you have LoS locks, where you're pointing at the target determines where the missiles will aim for generally, with boosted velocity and lower flight arcs.

[Steve Pryde]

RestosIII, on 27 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Honestly, my dream changes to LRMs would be keeping the non-LOS firing system the same, but when you have LoS locks, where you're pointing at the target determines where the missiles will aim for generally, with boosted velocity and lower flight arcs.

+fire&forget mechanic with line of sight to the target.

[El Bandito]

Frechdachs, on 27 January 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

AN ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN LRMS

We've been there, telling the relative merits of LRMs, and how they are not OP, for almost 5 years. LRM detractors are not gonna be convinced. They will keep on yelling that LRMs are bad/OP/cheap while covering their ears, and some might try to use LRMs themselves and failing. LRMs do need buffs though--as they are too situational at the moment.

[Kaspirikay]

LRMs are great as a punishment weapon when the target strolls out of cover for too long.

However, on open maps, there's nothing you can really do. As such, you'll get punished for no reason.

I think that's the gripe people have about LRMs.

[El Bandito]

Kaspirikay, on 27 January 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

LRMs are great as a punishment weapon when the target strolls out of cover for too long.

However, on open maps, there's nothing you can really do. As such, you'll get punished for no reason.

I think that's the gripe people have about LRMs.

Twist, bring AMS, get to friendly ECM mech etc... Twisting alone does wonders, like during that time I got Narced early on in Caustic Valley, got focused by LRMs for a long time, but still lived until I reached safety cause it is so easy to spread LRM damage. People who cry about LRMs in MWO are basically similar to those who cry about Master Yi in Bronze level play, without knowing how to use CCs effectively.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 January 2017 - 08:58 PM.

[Chados]

I've got to the point where my favorite use of LRMs is a rack I can pack as a secondary weapon. Like throwing a LRM5 and one ton on a medium mech while depending on your PPC or autocannon and/or lasers as primary weapons. I like having that single 5 or 10 rack for those times when I poptart up and shoot, and drop down...while my direct fire weapons are on recycle I can pop on a LRM salvo. Or if I'm trying to hop over a ridge and suddenly realize that I'm out-tonned by half again my weight (happens a lot in mediums) get back over the ridge and backpedal for cover, and toss a few LRMs at the enemy in the process. It's like having jump jets, it adds a different dimension to the mech.

[Battlemaster56]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

Twist, bring AMS, get to friendly ECM mech etc... Twisting alone does wonders, like during that time I got Narced early on in Caustic Valley, got focused by LRMs for a long time, but still lived until I reached safety cause it is so easy to spread LRM damage. People who cry about LRMs in MWO are basically similar to those who cry about Master Yi in Bronze level play, without knowing how to use CCs effectively.

Man good thing I play Pantheon and Mahlzhar alot XD.

[Kaspirikay]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

Twist, bring AMS, get to friendly ECM mech etc... Twisting alone does wonders, like during that time I got Narced early on in Caustic Valley, got focused by LRMs for a long time, but still lived until I reached safety cause it is so easy to spread LRM damage. People who cry about LRMs in MWO are basically similar to those who cry about Master Yi in Bronze level play, without knowing how to use CCs effectively.

Well yes, but maps without real cover like that snow field map. NARC is a death sentence. And if you live, the enemy traded so much armor at a profit vs you that they'll go in with tons (literally) of advantage.

Really that's the only gripe I have about LRMs. And its on that map.

[WolvesX]

Prosperity Park, on 27 January 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Nope. All weapons should be semiautomatic battle rifles with instant travel time, 1-shot heatshot kills, and zero reticule bloom for no-scope-on-the-run.

Hehehe. Nah, I like LRMs, and you're right: I like the variety they offer.

That is actually very funny!

[Novakaine]

Target over saturation is always fun.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

We've been there, telling the relative merits of LRMs, and how they are not OP, for almost 5 years. LRM detractors are not gonna be convinced. They will keep on yelling that LRMs are bad/OP/cheap while covering their ears, and some might try to use LRMs themselves and failing. LRMs do need buffs though--as they are too situational at the moment.

The problem is primarily on the understanding by the user and its target/victim (though mostly the latter), and let me show you one major flaw that keeps happening (by the OP no less).

Frechdachs, on 27 January 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

Hi there

You know the threads, they're as old as these forums. They're usually annoying, devolve into people basically all-capping YOU'RE WRONG!!! until everyone loses interest and moves on. Either someone got wasted by lurms and vents his frustration by demanding an immediate nerf, or they just got tired of watching that LRM Atlas being the useless last man standing over and over again. Those bloody lurms! What are they? OP? A terribad noob weapon? Obviously, they can't be both at the same time. What is entirely possible though, is that they are neither.

LRMs are unique in that they don't require a line of sight, which comes with several advantages. Your target can't shoot back at you if you use a team mate's lock or a UAV, and you're not hindered by obstacles, be they terrain or your mates. As with all missiles, they don't have any damage drop-off, so whenever they hit, they do full damage, not like some sniper Ravens who sit back at maximum distance and basically tickle you (#followthebluelaser). Great! On the other hand, their flight time gives your target time to maneuver into cover, they spread their damage all over the mech, which isn't unique btw, and if a brawler gets close to you, you're defenseless, even with the Clan version. Darn!

You know all of that, I'm sure. What puzzles me is the ongoing comparison to other weapons. Here's a quick way to declare LRMs useless: Compare them to a large pulse laser. They will come out short, because they're frankly horrible at being a large pulse laser, or any other LOS weapon. On the other hand, you can easily flip it around and see how good that laser is at doing an LRM's job, and the simple truth is: It can't.

So what are LRMs good at, what can they accomplish which no other weapon in the game can? The answer ofc is fire support, specifically strategic fire support. Look, I know that getting killed by lurms is a very frustrating experience. Especially since everyone claims that all the pros know how to counter them by staying in cover, getting close and murdering that pesky lurmboat, it feels a little like getting killed by them is your own fault, and sometimes it is. What you need to understand however, is that vs. a skilled LRM flinger, it wasn't, you just got jedi-mindtricked and you were already a dead mech walking a minute ago.

Skills? With LRMs? No way, right? They just sit back, wait or even beg for locks and fire at every red dot that moves, don't they? Well, a lot of people do that, and that's what we call noobish gameplay. A lot of accusations leveled at LRMs are straw-man arguments, so lets bust some myths here, shall we?

Just because you CAN fire from 1000m away, doesn't mean you have to. The closer you are, the quicker your missiles will reach their target and reduce the enemies reaction time.

Just because you CAN fire over an obstacle, nothing is stopping you from shuffling in and sharing some damage.

Just because you don't have to maneuver into a firing position, doesn't mean you shouldn't, and here's where things get really interesting, because good LRM play requires constant re-positioning.

You see, I mentioned strategic fire-support. When you're driving an LRM boat, the whole game changes, so your state of mind needs to change too. It becomes less of a shooter, it becomes a strategy game, think Tower Defense. Where is my team, where is the enemy team? Where are they moving to? Where will the engagement take place? When and where will my team get a view on the enemy team and, most importantly, where do you need to be when that happens? You need to focus much more on your minimap and less on your viewscreen, because you shouldn't aim too much for a target, but for an area. If you do it right, you basically deny your enemy certain routes, or force them to take a route you want them to. Your goal should be to put the reds between a rock and a hard place, giving them a choice between your missiles, your buddies guns or a retreat. And if you manage to make the last option impossible... Dead mech walking.

On top of that, You need to focus on your whole team, not just one group. Your scouts may run into trouble or your main force gets stung in the back. LRMs excel at switching support fire from one engagement to another, with every other weapon you need to do some serious maneuvering to do that. But you can only do it properly if you positioned yourself beforehand. Unless you figure out their strategic value, you will never be able to use LRMs to their full potential. You can never beat your enemy with better aim, but you can out-smart them.

Not all is great though. Another argument I see a lot, is that they might work well in low-tier solo queue, but are horrible in organized faction warfare. And to quote Gman129, since you never know whether you’ll be fighting on Alpine Peaks or Frozen City, the solo queue meta has always revolved around “what is the most effective most often, and is never not effective”. There is some truth here.

( From his meta guide http://metamechs.com/mwo-guides/meta/ )

There are maps which are horrible for LRMs, the worst offenders being HPG Manifold and Crimson Strait. But even on Plexus, if the enemy has a solid roof over its head, they're safe from the rain. All you can do is wait for them to come out. If you're lucky, you can communicate that to your team and play area denial. But especially in the solo queue, coordination is hit-and-miss and you might up being useless.

When you do have a coordinated team, a popular and successful playstyle consists of aggressive, concentrated pushes, focusing the enemy down with spike damage. I've seen teams using LRMs in a coordinated way, and they can absolutely wreck, but you have to do one or the other, those tactics don't mix well. Moving, focusing and killing an opposing force becomes more efficient with the level of coordination within the team, up to the point where players don't even need to talk anymore, they just have that chemistry where everyone knows when to push, hold or form a firing line. They don't need a mech with a strategic weapon system, because their playstyle is all fast and tactical, and they will rightly tell you to leave your lurmboat in the hangar and get with the program.

My bottom line? They're fine. They offer some variety to the game and make it more interesting, for the player using them and for the enemy team as well. They're less reliable and straight forward than other weapons, but that pendulum swings both ways, from dominating the match to being utterly useless. There are situations where bringing them is great, in others it might be the wrongest of calls.

And finally, can everyone calm down about the issue, just a little? Let people enjoy things, even if you don't.

LRMs require LOS to be effective. That's the problem.

I see people getting locks, but those locks don't hold well because there is no LOS on the target. LOS on the target needs to be from the LRM user, a teammate, or a UAV. NARCed targets are a special case (they have a special icon over the target) where you don't need LOS. Failure to do so despite having gotten a lock on a target AND having fired the missiles will cause the missiles to go to its destination without making adjustments to direction... usually failing to hit its target.. because an intelligent target usually moves away from the missile's fixed destination/trajectory. Often times terrain and structures are the most effective (and cheapest) defense against LRMs, despite the availability of AMS.

Once people actually get this little bit of information through their heads... then they'll understand what LRMs are truly about... the weapon that needs a lot of help to be effective and usually ineffective when it matters most.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 January 2017 - 09:40 PM.

[El Bandito]

Kaspirikay, on 27 January 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Well yes, but maps without real cover like that snow field map. NARC is a death sentence. And if you live, the enemy traded so much armor at a profit vs you that they'll go in with tons (literally) of advantage.

Really that's the only gripe I have about LRMs. And its on that map.

*shrugs* I personally died more to DF headshots, than from Narc. When it happens, it happens, but oh so rarely.

[MacClearly]

RestosIII, on 27 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Honestly, my dream changes to LRMs would be keeping the non-LOS firing system the same, but when you have LoS locks, where you're pointing at the target determines where the missiles will aim for generally, with boosted velocity and lower flight arcs.

The biggest reason I like this suggestion is it would make sitting back waiting for locks an even more foolish thing than it is now and may help reduce the resentment toward lurmers in the process.

[RestosIII]

MacClearly, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

The biggest reason I like this suggestion is it would make sitting back waiting for locks an even more foolish thing than it is now and may help reduce the resentment toward lurmers in the process.

Sadly, I have a feeling PGI isn't going to do a full rework on LRMs any time soon. So I'm just placing my hopes and dreams on MRMs and ATMs being the second best thing for that job.

[El Bandito]

RestosIII, on 27 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Honestly, my dream changes to LRMs would be keeping the non-LOS firing system the same, but when you have LoS locks, where you're pointing at the target determines where the missiles will aim for generally, with boosted velocity and lower flight arcs.

In conjunction with such change, I want Archer's super low crotchpit (I mean cockpit), to be mounted high. It is nigh impossible to get one's own locks in that mech without getting shot at first. And I want the bunny ears to be gone. They do nothing positive, while being hugely detrimental in actual combat.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 January 2017 - 10:49 PM.

[RestosIII]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

In conjunction with such change, I want Archer's super low crotchpit (I mean cockpit), to be mounted high. It is nigh impossible to get one's own locks in that mech without getting shot at first. And I want the bunny ears to be gone. They do nothing positive, while being hugely detrimental in actual combat.

Remember when we had hopes and dreams of those bunny ears having separate hitboxes with health pools? Man, I still wish they worked that way.