58 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I don't own a Stalker, so i tried the LRM-Boat Trial. I honestly don't have good expectations, in fact i was just going through the motions, i don't even care that i die. I did followed my team though, i am with them at most times except the part where i got left behind. I got my own locks, even when under fire i tried my best to hold the locks before i return to cover.



That is just only one game, likewise my enemies weren't top players, nor i am a good LRM player to the likes of Novakraine. Hell, i don't think that's a good score.

However i do feel that LRMs are not that really bad, they need buffs sure, but i do feel that the hate should be directed more to pilots than the weapon itself, cause i just played it not like a potato and i managed to successfully pilot it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 13 January 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[RestosIII]

LRMs can do good, and LRMs can do terribly. It all depends on how your team and the enemy team play/load themselves up. And before someone says "Oh, that's true for every weapon system!", that's true. But LRMs are much more heavily dependent on those factors than any other weapon system. That's why I'm a huge fan of making LRMs fire-and-forget, while heavily boosting LoS bonuses like increased velocity with a lower flight arc. Do those, and, hell, I'd be fine with locking non-LoS LRM locks to TAG/NARC, maybe UAV's.

[Monkey Lover]

lrm damage is like streak dmg. To really know how good you did divide it by 4 to compare it to direct fire.

[Pjwned]

RestosIII, on 13 January 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

LRMs can do good, and LRMs can do terribly. It all depends on how your team and the enemy team play/load themselves up. And before someone says "Oh, that's true for every weapon system!", that's true. But LRMs are much more heavily dependent on those factors than any other weapon system. That's why I'm a huge fan of making LRMs fire-and-forget, while heavily boosting LoS bonuses like increased velocity with a lower flight arc. Do those, and, hell, I'd be fine with locking non-LoS LRM locks to TAG/NARC, maybe UAV's.

I'm more of a fan of ECM not being a jesus box hard counter to LRMs personally. The biggest issue by far I see (and have seen for a while now) with LRMs is how unreliable they are because ECM is way too unbalanced, and addressing that would make LRMs far more universally appealing (a good thing) as well as making AMS the standard missile defense system (also a good thing and for multiple reasons).

Edited by Pjwned, 14 January 2017 - 01:43 AM.

[El Bandito]

Monkey Lover, on 13 January 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

lrm damage is like streak dmg. To really know how good you did divide it by 4 to compare it to direct fire.

Trial Champion uses LRM10s with Artemis. The spread is not too bad. Now LRM 20 boating STK-3H on the other hand...

The6thMessenger, on 13 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

However i do feel that LRMs are not that really bad, they need buffs sure, but i do fee that the hate should be directed more to pilots than the weapon itself, cause i just played it not like a potato and i managed to successfully pilot it.

Try it in group queue where people run 4-5 Hellbringers on a team.

Even in pug queue, LRMs are far less consistent in performance compared to all other long range weapons. I got my first Ace of Spades in a 5xLRM5 STK-5M, but that's not the norm for that mech.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2017 - 09:28 PM.

[InspectorG]

Pjwned, on 13 January 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

I'm more of a fan of ECM not being a jesus box hard counter to LRMs personally. The biggest issue by far I see (and have seen for a while now) with LRMs is how unreliable they are because ECM is way too unbalanced, and addressing that would make LRMs far more universally appealing (a good thing) as well as making AMS the standard missile defense system (which is a good thing for multiple reasons).

ECM is a non-issue anymore. Any decent LRM user will have a TAG anyhow.

LRMs arent unreliable because of ECM.

LRMs are unreliable because:

A. takes 1+ second to get a lock. Most all other weapons can fire without a locks. Speed kills. Literally.

B. Travel time. Good LRM users stay 300-400m from the enemy. Bad LRM users stay 1000m away giving the target plenty of time get to cover. Even at that close, all other weapons will hit you first meaning you are disadvantaged at trading.

C. LRM boat needs to facetank to hold a lock. LRM boats carry lots of ammo. LRM boats can twist damage but lose ALL of their offense in doing so. You can either: 1. twist damage and be a complete punchingbag 2. facetank and risk an ammo crit or IS XL destruction. Pick one.

D. just how do you LRM a decent jumpsniper?

E. What will 3AMS do to my ALRM70 Hoverlander-llC + TAG+1LPL? Even if that AMS MAGICALLY eats 50% of my missiles, they still eat @35 damage to CT per launch.
Skill > AMS safety blankets.
And YES, i roll LRM Hoverlander-llC-B because...the hell else can you put in it?

[The6thMessenger]

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

ECM is a non-issue anymore. Any decent LRM user will have a TAG anyhow.

LRMs arent unreliable because of ECM.

LRMs are unreliable because:

A. takes 1+ second to get a lock. Most all other weapons can fire without a locks. Speed kills. Literally.

B. Travel time. Good LRM users stay 300-400m from the enemy. Bad LRM users stay 1000m away giving the target plenty of time get to cover. Even at that close, all other weapons will hit you first meaning you are disadvantaged at trading.

C. LRM boat needs to facetank to hold a lock. LRM boats carry lots of ammo. LRM boats can twist damage but lose ALL of their offense in doing so. You can either: 1. twist damage and be a complete punchingbag 2. facetank and risk an ammo crit or IS XL destruction. Pick one.

D. just how do you LRM a decent jumpsniper?

E. What will 3AMS do to my ALRM70 Hoverlander-llC + TAG+1LPL? Even if that AMS MAGICALLY eats 50% of my missiles, they still eat @35 damage to CT per launch.
Skill > AMS safety blankets.
And YES, i roll LRM Hoverlander-llC-B because...the hell else can you put in it?

I did get my own locks. Sure i did piggy back on friendly locks as soon as i evaluated that they are kind of stable currently.

[InspectorG]

The6thMessenger, on 13 January 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

I did get my own locks. Sure i did piggy back on friendly locks as soon as i evaluated that they are kind of stable currently.

Just remember, direct lock with Artemis+TAG focuses most damage to the CT.

Cant rely on friendly locks via teammate because you have to expect them to use cover, breaking the lock.

Locks by UAV? Game on until the enemy shoots it down(which can be never in matched these days...)

If locks by UAV, pick choice targets, like marauders, KDKs, maulers, Dires, etc. Dont focus lights that will just distract you. Mediums f they are out of position/already hurt.

IMO: currently to get production from LRMs, you use them to bully the enemy. More threat vs newbs than outright damage dealer.

[Pjwned]

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

ECM is a non-issue anymore. Any decent LRM user will have a TAG anyhow.

LRMs arent unreliable because of ECM.

LRMs are unreliable because:

A. takes 1+ second to get a lock. Most all other weapons can fire without a locks. Speed kills. Literally.

So...ECM increasing that lock time drastically even when you do have TAG isn't an issue then?

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C. LRM boat needs to facetank to hold a lock. LRM boats carry lots of ammo. LRM boats can twist damage but lose ALL of their offense in doing so. You can either: 1. twist damage and be a complete punchingbag 2. facetank and risk an ammo crit or IS XL destruction. Pick one.

And ECM makes the facetanking a lot worse.

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E. What will 3AMS do to my ALRM70 Hoverlander-llC + TAG+1LPL? Even if that AMS MAGICALLY eats 50% of my missiles, they still eat @35 damage to CT per launch.
Skill > AMS safety blankets.
And YES, i roll LRM Hoverlander-llC-B because...the hell else can you put in it?

I don't know why people overreact so much to taking huge missile volleys, as if nearly 20 tons of weaponry shouldn't actually hurt at all if you get blasted by it just because of crying salty butt tears about indirectly fired LRMs, and newsflash those LRMs are not all going to hit the CT unless the target is a dire whale or something.

Additionally, when you ask "how much is 3 AMS going to do against my stream fired clan LRMs" the answer is "a lot," and if you don't think that mitigating at least half of that damage (probably more than that with 3 AMS against clan LRMs) is a big deal then I don't know what to say.

[InspectorG]

Pjwned, on 13 January 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

So...ECM increasing that lock time drastically even when you do have TAG isn't an issue then?



And ECM makes the facetanking a lot worse.



I don't know why people overreact so much to taking huge missile volleys, as if nearly 20 tons of weaponry shouldn't actually hurt at all if you get blasted by it just because of crying salty butt tears about indirectly fired LRMs, and newsflash those LRMs are not all going to hit the CT unless the target is a dire whale or something.

Additionally, when you ask "how much is 3 AMS going to do against my stream fired clan LRMs" the answer is "a lot," and if you don't think that mitigating at least half of that damage (probably more than that with 3 AMS against clan LRMs) is a big deal then I don't know what to say.

ECM hasnt really been an issue since, what, late 2015? TAG cuts ECM and you end up with about as much lock time as no ECM and no TAG.

How does ECM make facetanking worse? For the LRMer or its target? Not sure what you are getting at.

3 AMS doesnt do much to ALRM70+TAG. FYI, LRM20 spreads were buffed recently(made smaller). Worth it? Doubtful, i troll in this mech. And yes, a decent amount goes to the CT, surprisingly.


LRMs are a bad weapon. It can intimidate newbs and scrubs who put their faith in the mysticism of ECM and AMS but decent players know to break locks.

And again, whats a LRM boat gonna do vs a decent jumpsnipe Night Gyr or Summoner? They wont even be able to get locks.
Neither of those mechs have ECM. Neither would use AMS because AMS would give your position away. This case illustrates the whole point.

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

How does ECM make facetanking worse? For the LRMer or its target? Not sure what you are getting at.

For the Lurmer, I bet. It is even worse because LRMs are already face tanking weapons with the longest duration, when you are having your own lock.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2017 - 10:18 PM.

[Pjwned]

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

ECM hasnt really been an issue since, what, late 2015? TAG cuts ECM and you end up with about as much lock time as no ECM and no TAG.

No, you really don't, especially when enemy ECM is stacked up at all which makes getting a target lock take even longer.

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How does ECM make facetanking worse? For the LRMer or its target? Not sure what you are getting at.

Longer lock times due to ECM = more facetanking.

Quote

3 AMS doesnt do much to ALRM70+TAG. FYI, LRM20 spreads were buffed recently(made smaller). Worth it? Doubtful, i troll in this mech. And yes, a decent amount goes to the CT, surprisingly.

It does a pretty damn good amount considering how much space & tonnage that AMS takes, and I doubt you're taking the possibility of AMS modules into account.

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LRMs are a bad weapon. It can intimidate newbs and scrubs who put their faith in the mysticism of ECM and AMS but decent players know to break locks.

And yet they would be noticeably better if they didn't get ****ed in the *** with target locks because of ECM being unbalanced.

Quote

And again, whats a LRM boat gonna do vs a decent jumpsnipe Night Gyr or Summoner? They wont even be able to get locks.
Neither of those mechs have ECM. Neither would use AMS because AMS would give your position away. This case illustrates the whole point.

That's not something to be addressed on the LRM side, which is why I didn't bother getting into it.

[MacClearly]

Pjwned, on 13 January 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

So...ECM increasing that lock time drastically even when you do have TAG isn't an issue then?



And ECM makes the facetanking a lot worse.



I don't know why people overreact so much to taking huge missile volleys, as if nearly 20 tons of weaponry shouldn't actually hurt at all if you get blasted by it just because of crying salty butt tears about indirectly fired LRMs, and newsflash those LRMs are not all going to hit the CT unless the target is a dire whale or something.

Additionally, when you ask "how much is 3 AMS going to do against my stream fired clan LRMs" the answer is "a lot," and if you don't think that mitigating at least half of that damage (probably more than that with 3 AMS against clan LRMs) is a big deal then I don't know what to say.

Most likely because I am one of those people who don't like the idea of lrms being too powerful or harder to avoid without line of sight, I don't get your argument against ECM.

On mechs such as the Raven 3L, not having it would significantly impact its ability to operate away from the pack. Also when I have used tag, it allows me to lock an ECM mech just as quickly as a non ECM mech so I don't follow you here. Are you saying that ECM defeats TAG? If so, are you sure and have you tested that out in private lobbies?

As a bit of a side here, lrms just recently got buffed. They seem to be more popular now, even in...well everywhere. So are you saying they need to be increased even more so? If by all accounts lrms are supposed to be a support weapon, then it seems right now they are in a good spot for that. I personally think that if they became any more powerful than they are currently, new players would never make it through their first 25 games.

[Radbane]

This whole thread is so black and white .. it's either 60-70 tubes of LRM's or none.... really?
LRM's need a buff from a single or dual launcher point of view, but a nerf when you boat them...

Lore mechs with 1-2 launchers should be usable (example the C1 with its 2x15 launchers) should be a respectable piece of hardware on the battlefield. Boating should not...

[The6thMessenger]

Radbane, on 13 January 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

This whole thread is so black and white .. it's either 60-70 tubes of LRM's or none.... really?
LRM's need a buff from a single or dual launcher point of view, but a nerf when you boat them...

Lore mechs with 1-2 launchers should be usable (example the C1 with its 2x15 launchers) should be a respectable piece of hardware on the battlefield. Boating should not...

Black and white? 60 - 70 tubes? Trial Stalker only as 40.

[Leone]

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

A. takes 1+ second to get a lock. Most all other weapons can fire without a locks. Speed kills. Literally.

You can dumb fire without locks, but then your giving up the one advantage your presumably taking Long Range Missiles for. Not arguing with the speed thing though.

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

B. Travel time. Good LRM users stay 300-400m from the enemy. Bad LRM users stay 1000m away giving the target plenty of time get to cover. Even at that close, all other weapons will hit you first meaning you are disadvantaged at trading.

To true. at that point your trying to out damage them with higher dps, and whilst hilarious on those even kill trades, missile just have all that flight time.

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

C. LRM boat needs to facetank to hold a lock. LRM boats carry lots of ammo. LRM boats can twist damage but lose ALL of their offense in doing so. You can either: 1. twist damage and be a complete punchingbag 2. facetank and risk an ammo crit or IS XL destruction. Pick one.

I prefer to narc and take cover, and then rain death from relative safety. I trade for narcs. (Requires narc.)

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

D. just how do you LRM a decent jumpsniper?

Target the hill the hide behind. If you get your missiles right on the top of terrain, they can skate down the side of a hill. Most jump snipers realize they can relocate after the first salvo hits however. (Good jump snipers do so anyways.)

Also, you can pop your one uav, or better yet, circumvent their cover.

InspectorG, on 13 January 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

E. What will 3AMS do to my ALRM70 Hoverlander-llC + TAG+1LPL? Even if that AMS MAGICALLY eats 50% of my missiles, they still eat @35 damage to CT per launch.

Ummm... Yes, ams does eat many a missile. Yet... you seem to point out the lrms can function... I.. I cannot argue here.

I don't know what to do... I'mma go now...

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 13 January 2017 - 11:29 PM.

[Novakaine]

Never shoot mechs in the ecm bubble.
And ecm is for pansies.

[Roughneck45]

LRM's are too situational and too easily countered by variables that the lurmer cannot control.

The smarter your opponent gets the worse LRMs become. Potato masher against some, wasted tonnage against others.

Edited by Roughneck45, 14 January 2017 - 12:06 AM.

[LordNothing]

lrms themselves are not bad, but boating them is. in my opinion the best way to use them effectively, is to carry sufficient backup weapons to the point where it could no longer be considered boating. i like the 50/50 which mostly applies to non ballistic carrying mixed builds (the dps and weight of ballistics makes this more of a 60/40 or 70/30, so you can carry more tubes than ppfld and it will be equivalent). meaning that the damage of the missiles is matched with equivalent damage in laser or srms. ballistics are worth more point for point so an ac10 may be worth 15 tubes. but thats generally my rule of thumb. 30 tubes is usually enough for a heavy to be relevant in all situations and it usually keeps enough tonnage abailable for some medpulse or srms.

[Pjwned]

MacClearly, on 13 January 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

Most likely because I am one of those people who don't like the idea of lrms being too powerful or harder to avoid without line of sight, I don't get your argument against ECM.

The primary argument against ECM is that it's a 1.5 ton 2 slot (1 ton 1 slot for Clans) hard counter to potentially dozens of tons of LRM launchers, which is just stupid period, and it invalidates AMS (the proper missile defense system) to a large degree. It also shouldn't be giving mechs some sort of stealth armor BS effect, which is obviously related to LRMs being hard countered, but the reason I bring that up is because if LRMs were not hard countered any longer but ECM still had some sort of stealth armor effect then that would be an acceptable solution (although I would still complain that it's not a good solution).

And even when you do try to counter ECM you have to bend over backwards to do so, such as getting a lock with TAG that takes forever or popping a UAV over the ECM mech (and hoping it doesn't get shot down) or if you NARC the ECM mech then that disables ECM for a little while but only if there isn't any other active ECM in the area since otherwise the NARC is completely negated (LOL); PPCs also temporarily disable ECM but that's hardly even worth considering as an ECM counter honestly, as well as BAP countering ECM but that's more or less worthless for LRM mechs considering how close you have to get for BAP to counter ECM.

Meanwhile ECM is just always on being a jesus box crammed into one of the smallest pieces of equipment in the game and it's just stupid.

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On mechs such as the Raven 3L, not having it would significantly impact its ability to operate away from the pack. Also when I have used tag, it allows me to lock an ECM mech just as quickly as a non ECM mech so I don't follow you here. Are you saying that ECM defeats TAG? If so, are you sure and have you tested that out in private lobbies?

What I'm saying is that even when you do TAG a target, the ECM makes the missile lock take considerably longer than usual, particularly when 2 or more active ECM bubbles are in the area of your target.

Have you tried actually getting a missile lock with your LRMs through ECM with just a TAG, especially when there's multiple ECM stacked on your target? Because if not then I suggest you go try it out and then get back to me.

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As a bit of a side here, lrms just recently got buffed. They seem to be more popular now, even in...well everywhere. So are you saying they need to be increased even more so? If by all accounts lrms are supposed to be a support weapon, then it seems right now they are in a good spot for that.

1. It wasn't exactly a huge buff, big LRM launchers still have atrocious missile spread and they remain largely unused except on the biggest of LRM boats which are hardly very popular anyways; it should have been a bigger buff in that regard honestly so yeah I guess I'm saying they should be even better.

2. I'm also saying that LRMs need to be more reliable (in addition to being reasonably effective i.e not ridiculous spread that makes missiles miss frequently just because you have a bigger launcher) so that they're actually worth bringing for boats boats and non-boats.

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I personally think that if they became any more powerful than they are currently, new players would never make it through their first 25 games.

They can go and equip AMS then, or stay closer to their teammates who do have AMS; this also of course applies to people who don't like the idea of their jesus box being nerfed and the idea of actually needing to equip AMS as the primary missile defense system that it should be.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 January 2017 - 01:39 AM.