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I Thought It Was Gonna Be More Balanced


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#21 Danjo San

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:22 PM

View PostEl Contego, on 31 January 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

IS never wins on that map

ER-LL builds on mechs with 10% range boost and duration quirks do the trick. add a ER-LL-Module and your range can compete with the clans. and you can win ... I've also lead a bunch of close range IS players to victory on that map sneaking through trenches, with 4 Snipers suppressing the enemy... As you say ... communication is key

#22 Cpt Contego

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:31 PM

View PostDanjo San, on 31 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

ER-LL builds on mechs with 10% range boost and duration quirks do the trick. add a ER-LL-Module and your range can compete with the clans. and you can win ... I've also lead a bunch of close range IS players to victory on that map sneaking through trenches, with 4 Snipers suppressing the enemy... As you say ... communication is key


I'll have to give that a go at some point, I predominately stick to med/short range combat as it suits my style a bit more for now. Always willing to learn new tricks though.

I like the sound of your tactic on Polar Highlands, If I ever have another team that properly communicates well then i'll be sure to give it a go. I love leading a light lance charge/flank.

#23 Robinson Crusher

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:58 PM

View PostLady Alexandra Cousland, on 28 January 2017 - 06:45 PM, said:

I already posted it on the lurmer thread but I think a solo and group queue would fix a lot.
2 bucket rule same as quick play maybe also divided tug of war.


View PostM A N T I S, on 31 January 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

... Please, please. It's not the tech imbalance. Just practice, see what successful people are doing and try to emulate them. The outcomes of these matches are far more dependent on the skill gap than any perceived tech gap.


View PostLily from animove, on 31 January 2017 - 05:57 AM, said:

PGI can't balance the community...


I still think the only solution is a tier system for faction play. If you are worried that this will reduce the number of people available then make it simple. Tier 5 and 4 pilots play in their own bucket, and tier 3, 2, and 1 pilots play in theirs.

#24 Ravenlord

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:11 PM

View PostM A N T I S, on 31 January 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

... and this is the danger of continually propagating the myth of unbalanced play. People all start believing in it and using it as the primary scapegoat of any loss or shortcomings in their performance or their teams' performance. Whatever slight advantage the clan mechs may or may not hold is quite honestly irrelevant compared to the dependance on your own performance. I grouped with some unit mates and randoms on the old FRR hub yesterday, and won match after match after match. We only lost a single match all day long. I invited guys that I know to be disciplined in their positioning, have good heat management, not afraid to be aggressive and can aim...

Please, please. It's not the tech imbalance. Just practice, see what successful people are doing and try to emulate them. The outcomes of these matches are far more dependent on the skill gap than any perceived tech gap.


Saying it is not the tech imbalance and claiming the advantage of the clans is not significant is deluding yourself. I don't play any faction warfare at all and therefore am not biased and I can honestly say that I find myself consistently doing noticeably better in clan mechs than in IS. Or put another way, given the same skill level and number of mechs a team of clan mechs will always have a significant advantage over IS.

Edited by Ravenlord, 31 January 2017 - 07:16 PM.


#25 justcallme A S H

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 11:08 PM

View PostRavenlord, on 31 January 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:


Saying it is not the tech imbalance and claiming the advantage of the clans is not significant is deluding yourself. I don't play any faction warfare at all and therefore am not biased and I can honestly say that I find myself consistently doing noticeably better in clan mechs than in IS. Or put another way, given the same skill level and number of mechs a team of clan mechs will always have a significant advantage over IS.


That's is because clan mechs are simply easier to play.

You have to have a decent skill level to run IS.

Play both sides, I see the only 'imbalance' as coordination, and this is the reason for opponents losing 9/10 times.

#26 AncillaLupus

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:16 AM

Never read such b***s*** about balance as in this thread here.

IS needs more skill ...
Clan outperform IS mechs ...

Heck ... where the f.... do you all get your "alternative facts" ???

Buy yourself a clan mech pack.
Play it. Master it. Join CW.

Do the same with an IS pack.
Compare.

If your outcome is STILL that clan mechs have such huge advantage over IS ... well sorry ....

Clan Mechs can´t be played like IS mechs and vice versa.
THAT`S the fact!

There was a time where you actually could play clan mechs like is mechs and the feeling that clan mechs could be superior was legit. But that´s loooooooooooooooong gone.

Edited by AncillaLupus, 02 February 2017 - 03:17 AM.


#27 MovinTarget

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 03:44 AM

View PostAncillaLupus, on 02 February 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Never read such b***s*** about balance as in this thread here.

IS needs more skill ...
Clan outperform IS mechs ...

Heck ... where the f.... do you all get your "alternative facts" ???

Buy yourself a clan mech pack.
Play it. Master it. Join CW.

Do the same with an IS pack.
Compare.

If your outcome is STILL that clan mechs have such huge advantage over IS ... well sorry ....

Clan Mechs can´t be played like IS mechs and vice versa.
THAT`S the fact!

There was a time where you actually could play clan mechs like is mechs and the feeling that clan mechs could be superior was legit. But that´s loooooooooooooooong gone.


We've been down this road before and since the tech is supposed roughly "balanced but different" there is very little that can be done to prove balance or no balance...

... except for us much hated mercs...

Think about it, there are all kinds of variables we can't control in this game so its hard to derive proof from one's own performance, unless its by judging one's own performance, over time...

So here is why I feel there is some semblance of tech balance:

In the year I have been a merc, my scores have averaged out to be similar *REGARDLESS OF THE TECH I AM IN*. This over hundreds of FP matches, covering the gamut of stomping to being stomped, solo drop to 12 man, equal deck tonnage or different. The only things i can control are between the seat and the keyboard.


So it may be anectdotal, but it's what I have for a counter argument vs anyone trying to say that balance is so horrifically off. There are some other factors other than tech balance to be taken into account.

Edited by MovinTarget, 02 February 2017 - 03:44 AM.


#28 Psycho Cop

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:06 AM

Teamwork is the best weapon you have.

Master your skills over the mech, master your abilities as a pilot, master your combat awareness, find equally minded players or units.
Listen to experienced dropcallers and or teammates. Either ask if you can drop with them, or impress them so they will ask you.
Finally strategize and adjust your dropdeck to the strategy.

Faction Play should be a platform to trial your abilities against other high skilled players.
And success will be rewarded.

#29 Ravenlord

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:13 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 01 February 2017 - 11:08 PM, said:

That's is because clan mechs are simply easier to play.

You have to have a decent skill level to run IS.

Play both sides, I see the only 'imbalance' as coordination, and this is the reason for opponents losing 9/10 times.


What you are saying is exactly the same as I said in other words.. "IS needs skill, clan is easier" equals "clans have an advantage over IS". If you need skill for one and the other not so much there is an imbalance, plain and simple, because it also means provided the same skill (player) a clan mech will do better. There is a reason so much more people want to play clan and the clans win so often.

Edited by Ravenlord, 02 February 2017 - 09:22 AM.


#30 MovinTarget

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 09:24 AM

View PostRavenlord, on 02 February 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:


What you are saying is exactly the same as I said in other words.. "IS needs skill, clan is easier" equals "clans have an advantage over IS". If you need skill for one and the other not so much there is an imbalance, plain and simple, because it also means provided the same skill (player) a clan mech will do better. There is a reason so much more people want to play clan and the clans win so often.


Close, it's "Low skill clan players have an advantage over equally low skill IS", my experience is that as you pit higher skilled players against each other, the mechs themselves matter less than all the other factors (teamwork, timing, strategy, communication, etc)

#31 Ravenlord

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:20 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 02 February 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:


Close, it's "Low skill clan players have an advantage over equally low skill IS", my experience is that as you pit higher skilled players against each other, the mechs themselves matter less than all the other factors (teamwork, timing, strategy, communication, etc)


Yeah, well, as I said, I come from a place where all those other factors are minimal to nonexistent (quick play) and therefore individual mech strength and player skill are more prominent. I can count the times I have seen an IS mech do more than 1000 damage on one hand, if at all. The times I alone did more than 1000 in a clan mech fill more than 2 hands.. I consistently see clan mechs do 600-800 damage while for IS it is still a rather uncommon occurence. My own damage average in clan mechs is probably around 400 while it's probably hardly even 300 in IS mechs. In my opinion all this paints a pretty clear picture.

Edited by Ravenlord, 02 February 2017 - 10:25 AM.


#32 MovinTarget

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:46 AM

View PostRavenlord, on 02 February 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:


Yeah, well, as I said, I come from a place where all those other factors are minimal to nonexistent (quick play) and therefore individual mech strength and player skill are more prominent. I can count the times I have seen an IS mech do more than 1000 damage on one hand, if at all. The times I alone did more than 1000 in a clan mech fill more than 2 hands.. I consistently see clan mechs do 600-800 damage while for IS it is still a rather uncommon occurence. My own damage average in clan mechs is probably around 400 while it's probably hardly even 300 in IS mechs. In my opinion all this paints a pretty clear picture.



Sorry if it is frustrating, but you almost *HAVE* to get into a unit/group of competent players because a team of half solos or all solos will very seldom succeed.

There's supposed to be a little warning giving people a heads up that FP is "hard mode" but people see the ability to earn rewards and ignore and ruin the experience for others as well as themselves...

#33 Ravenlord

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:07 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 02 February 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:



Sorry if it is frustrating, but you almost *HAVE* to get into a unit/group of competent players because a team of half solos or all solos will very seldom succeed.

There's supposed to be a little warning giving people a heads up that FP is "hard mode" but people see the ability to earn rewards and ignore and ruin the experience for others as well as themselves...


Oh, I probably haven't expressed myself sufficently clear, I don't play FW nor do I plan on doing it any time soon, not as long as it is as one sided as it is at the moment. Firstly because I'm not a fan of "meta", experimenting with builds is probably half the fun of the game for me, if not more and also because I am in no unit and therefore don't really see a point in it, because of what you say. I don't even use a headset.

Edited by Ravenlord, 02 February 2017 - 11:10 AM.


#34 The Errant

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:44 PM

Well...this is kinda the Faction Play section of the board, so...

Anyway, it's been said elsewhere but the main difference between IS mechs and Clan mechs, aside from the particular strengths and weaknesses of their weapons, is that Clan mechs are for the most part optimized right out of the box with double heat sinks, CASE, endosteel/ferro-fibrous, and most importantly an XL engine locked at a certain size which gives you a consistent level of pod space to build your weapon payloads with. Plus a lot of Clan mechs have similar speeds with these locked XL engines so it's easy for them to reposition as a group and not have to worry about waiting on stragglers. IS mechs on the other hand are customisable in every way, and that seems like a good thing at first glance but it's much easier to bring a sub-par IS mech to both Faction Play and Quick Play because of all this supposed variety than it is to mess up a Clan mech.

So while there's this huge pool of possibility and creativity within which to build an IS mech (endosteel/ferro-fibrous or not? standard engine or XL? what size?), only a small portion of that pool actually consists of mechs that can keep up with the Clans in terms of speed and firepower. It means the VAST majority of the time you need mechs that can move at least ~75 kph and can mount at least ~30-point alphas for dps builds or ~45-point alphas for up-front alpha builds with maxed or near-maxed armor. It means double heat sinks always, endosteel nearly always (and sometimes ferro-fibrous), and big XL engines the vast majority of the time. The Clans on the other hand don't even have those other options because of how much of their loadouts they can't change.

So out of all the options available to IS mechs only a select portion of them are actually viable for faction play, whereas almost all the Clan mechs (except for the IICs and the Kodiak) come set up that way already and can only be altered so much. Newer players don't necessarily pick up on that right off the bat so they end up bringing nonviable builds to FP and getting farmed by all but the starchiest of Clan potatoes. Understanding that your options in the mechlab are restricted on the IS side goes a long way towards being competent in faction play, and being stuck with the IS XL engine means you have to know how to poke/trade and torso twist well if you don't want to go down early from taking a Clan alpha to a side torso. If you don't like those restrictions and that's what keeps you out of faction play, then that's a shame but I understand. But it's not like the Clans have wider choices than the IS does when it boils down to what's viable. While it's more difficult to bring bad Clan builds to faction play it's certainly possible and Clan PUGs get their share of stompings too.

Now, all that being said, once your IS mechs are optimized the way the Clan mechs come out of the box, you deal with the differences in the weapons. Clan weapons have more range and power for less tonnage but run hotter and have longer burn times and cooldowns. IS weapons generate less heat with shorter burn times and shorter cooldowns but they're heavier, do less damage per shot, and have shorter ranges (with one or two notable exceptions). It means the Clans do well when they can stay outside the IS's optimum ranges and trade with time to cool down, and IS tends to do well if they can force a brawl or if they can trade from within their optimum ranges.

The rest is strategy and tactics common between the IS and the Clans: balling up and pushing, forming firing lines, knowing where to go and what to do on the maps, and focusing fire.

Edited by The Errant, 02 February 2017 - 05:53 PM.


#35 justcallme A S H

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 07:55 PM

View PostRavenlord, on 02 February 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:


Oh, I probably haven't expressed myself sufficently clear, I don't play FW nor do I plan on doing it any time soon, not as long as it is as one sided as it is at the moment. Firstly because I'm not a fan of "meta", experimenting with builds is probably half the fun of the game for me, if not more and also because I am in no unit and therefore don't really see a point in it, because of what you say. I don't even use a headset.



If you're never played it. Haven't seen that the real "imbalance" is actually team work, the team that doesn't have it essentially loses every time...

Then why on earth are you even commenting on it?

It's not one sided at all. IS has won more phases the last 4 weeks than Clan has. In the hands of decent pilots the actual perceived mech balance is not as big as the T4/T5 users claim (because they don't know better).

#36 Ravenlord

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:29 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 02 February 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

If you're never played it. Haven't seen that the real "imbalance" is actually team work, the team that doesn't have it essentially loses every time...

Then why on earth are you even commenting on it?


Because in quick play where there is little team work if at all and thus this factor is removed and where teams are mixed clan and IS is where you can see it best and it is glaringly obvious that the clan mechs generally do better than the IS mechs and that there is indeed an imbalance. As I already wrote above, I can't remember when I saw an IS mech do above 1000 damage or if I ever did, while for clan mechs even I do it every so often and I see it done in the scoreboard rather frequently, too. Same goes for the damage average, in my IS mechs it is probably around 100 or more lower than in clan mechs, and while I am certainly not the best I am not a bad player who is just to stupid to pilot an IS mech either.

Edited by Ravenlord, 02 February 2017 - 10:39 PM.


#37 Vxheous

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:23 PM

View PostRavenlord, on 02 February 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:


Because in quick play where there is little team work if at all and thus this factor is removed and where teams are mixed clan and IS is where you can see it best and it is glaringly obvious that the clan mechs generally do better than the IS mechs and that there is indeed an imbalance. As I already wrote above, I can't remember when I saw an IS mech do above 1000 damage or if I ever did, while for clan mechs even I do it every so often and I see it done in the scoreboard rather frequently, too. Same goes for the damage average, in my IS mechs it is probably around 100 or more lower than in clan mechs, and while I am certainly not the best I am not a bad player who is just to stupid to pilot an IS mech either.


Banshee 3M:
Posted Image

Not even basic'ed Awesome 9M with large pulse lasers:
Posted Image

Thunderbolt 5SS:
Posted Image

Two non-elited IS mechs both breaking 1K in the same match same team (Banshee + 9SE)
Posted Image

2 Battlemaster 2c both breaking 1K same team (defending escort, none of the damage was farmed on the Atlas)
Posted Image
There's tons more but I'm not at my home computer right now, so I could only pull a few off my unit's forums. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's not doable, or hard to do even. None of those scores were obtained with any lrms whatsoever

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 02 February 2017 - 11:54 PM.


#38 justcallme A S H

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:34 PM

View PostRavenlord, on 02 February 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:


Because in quick play where there is little team work if at all and thus this factor is removed and where teams are mixed clan and IS is where you can see it best and it is glaringly obvious that the clan mechs generally do better than the IS mechs and that there is indeed an imbalance. As I already wrote above, I can't remember when I saw an IS mech do above 1000 damage or if I ever did, while for clan mechs even I do it every so often and I see it done in the scoreboard rather frequently, too. Same goes for the damage average, in my IS mechs it is probably around 100 or more lower than in clan mechs, and while I am certainly not the best I am not a bad player who is just to stupid to pilot an IS mech either.


Ah, again... It comes down to the player.

Put me in pretty much any mech in solo QP and I can pump out big numbers.

It's got little to do with the mech itself. IIRC I did ~850dmg in my BLR 2C, first game out a few months back... It's not hard.

Again does this come back to balance or pilot ability? Pilot ability.

The only real imbalance at a "higher" level is ERPPC/Gauss from the Clan side. cERPPC can outrange a IS ERLL quirk/module. Not the mech itself. Yeah the IS XL is another issue but JJ/Gauss/ERPPC - That is what the elite level is running... There isn't a lot of IS Mechs that have JJ and the IS ERPPC is junk.

But again, that is stuff you don't see a hell of a lot of in FP cause the elite don't really play it. Just us mid-level people.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 February 2017 - 11:37 PM.


#39 Sickario

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:52 PM

As someone who is relatively new to this game I have to ask something. If the difference isn't the Mechs but the players, then does that mean that all those Clan players that are dominating the maps, are they just better players and/or better organized than the IS players? From a statistical standpoint that just doesn't sound very likely, although it could be possible.

Otherwise if balance is an issue, then the only way I see it being truly fixed is they have to blur the lines between them. Either make them all like Clan Mechs or (preferably because they have far more choices at customizing) make them all like IS. Make the differences primarily cosmetic while leveling the playing field. This would render any arguments of imbalance as invalid, while at the same time opening up a whole new world of possibilities for Clan players.

I know this would be a very difficult task for the devs (to say the least) but in the end it strikes me as the simplest solution, and it should end the vast majority of complaints about the lack of balance. Sure there's always going to be SOME complaints about balance but they should be far more rare and pretty much always ignored. As long as both sides have access to the same abilities then it would inevitably boil down to player skill as well as the affinity for teamwork.

Of course, the main problem with this scenario that I can see is if this change is made and yet nothing changes on the map. If Clans continue to dominate then it would be the better players and/or teams are staying with them, and I'm not sure if there is a reasonable fix for that.

Perhaps that's what Piranha fears as well, and that's why they'd rather do what most MMOs do, gradually play favorites with one side until they've gotten so much more overpowered and the majority flock to play that side. And then after a while switch back to playing favorites with Clans, going back and forth over time to force (they'd probably prefer the term "encourage") people to play both sides. But that's just like, my opinion, man.

#40 Vxheous

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:56 PM

View PostSickario, on 02 February 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

As someone who is relatively new to this game I have to ask something. If the difference isn't the Mechs but the players, then does that mean that all those Clan players that are dominating the maps, are they just better players and/or better organized than the IS players? From a statistical standpoint that just doesn't sound very likely, although it could be possible.

Otherwise if balance is an issue, then the only way I see it being truly fixed is they have to blur the lines between them. Either make them all like Clan Mechs or (preferably because they have far more choices at customizing) make them all like IS. Make the differences primarily cosmetic while leveling the playing field. This would render any arguments of imbalance as invalid, while at the same time opening up a whole new world of possibilities for Clan players.

I know this would be a very difficult task for the devs (to say the least) but in the end it strikes me as the simplest solution, and it should end the vast majority of complaints about the lack of balance. Sure there's always going to be SOME complaints about balance but they should be far more rare and pretty much always ignored. As long as both sides have access to the same abilities then it would inevitably boil down to player skill as well as the affinity for teamwork.

Of course, the main problem with this scenario that I can see is if this change is made and yet nothing changes on the map. If Clans continue to dominate then it would be the better players and/or teams are staying with them, and I'm not sure if there is a reasonable fix for that.

Perhaps that's what Piranha fears as well, and that's why they'd rather do what most MMOs do, gradually play favorites with one side until they've gotten so much more overpowered and the majority flock to play that side. And then after a while switch back to playing favorites with Clans, going back and forth over time to force (they'd probably prefer the term "encourage") people to play both sides. But that's just like, my opinion, man.


FW faction dominance skews to which side has more Merc units at a given time (merc units tend to have the better players in the game).





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