28 replies to this topic

[50 50]

I'm creating this discussion (And yes I know there have been others) based on the recent discussion in the Jan 27th Round Table.

It seemed that a big stumbling block in the conversation was how the dropships actually work.
At present it appears the system is designed so that if you are in Alpha Lance, you take the Alpha Dropship and go to Alpha DropZone.
If a member of Alpha Lance wanted to change their drop location to the Charlie DropZone, they would still take the Alpha DropShip to get there which creates issues with flight paths and the dropshops colliding therefore creating a need to stagger the drops which limits it to a drop of 4 at a time making a simultaneous bulk reinforcement difficult. There is also the problem with different people in the lances wanting to drop at different DropZones and splitting the drop destinations.

There was the mention of drop pods from a high altitude position to land on the map according to player selection. However it was very brief and not thought through in any detail.

After listening to the conversation, it seems that the conversation got too hung up on the limitations with the dropships and didn't think around the problem so I would like to discuss the features and options a bit here in this thread help think through the development of it.

****************************************************************************************************************

The main reason to implement a function to allow selectable DropZones is to address Spawncamping but it has the side benefit of creating some new tactical options for us.

First off, it needs structure.

We can't all be randomly picking the spot we want to drop at anywhere on the map. It might be ok for one lance to be able to drop individually, using drop pods, perhaps as a scouting kind of concept, but even then it should be within limits. ie. you can't drop straight onto the enemy base, there needs a way to identify the territory on a map as acceptable for an individual drop.

To use the dropships, we should put more emphasis on our lance structure and command. That is, give the Lance Commander role in the teams the functionality to select the drop zone and when to initiate the drop, not just a drop every 30 seconds. That is, the drop will wait for a full lance unless the Lance Commander triggers the launch.


Using the Dropships

The dropships are great. It's very cool to come sweeping into the battle and get dropped in. However, with the problem of setting up flight paths and watching out for collisions and so on, do we need to use them for all the drops?

I'll use the launch feature we have seen in the 1v1 Steiner colosseum as an example of another deployment method that has already been developed and is in the game.

If the dropships are there to drop our forces at the initial DropZones with the intent of establishing a beachhead, then we could have some spots on the maps with a bit to structure to capture that we can deploy from underground. This by passes the whole problem of working out the issues with the dropships and provides some variety as well as new objectives/depth.

So the Alpha Dropship will only ever drop at Alpha DropZone. But we can capture a forward point that will allow us to deploy from Hangers.

The other option is to bring in larger dropships that can deploy more than one lance, but at this stage, we don't even know if that is something that is possible or even being considered and has it's own set of design questions that would need to be discussed separately.


The issue of having multiple spawn points.

It needs to be considered that if we do get multiple spawn points that we should be able to lose them. If we want to be able to dominate a map, part of that is being able to force the enemy team out of the battle so for that.

So if we can capture and create spawn points, we should be able to lose them as well.


Lastly, the maps.

To really make this all work, particularly having the option for multiple dropzones as well as the various objectives for the mode, the maps need to be big. There might only be 4 quick play maps that might be big enough at the moment. I would suggest that the maps do need to be bigger.
If we took a map like Tourmaline, Frozen City, Grim Plexis or Forest Colony, these are big maps and we need the space to manoeuvre and setup some strategies. For Faction Play, they probably need to be bigger.

[Monkey Lover]

It's a nice feature I would take it but this isn't why people aren't playing cw.

Something as simple as a 10ish second shield would do about the same thing.

[Davegt27]

I don't see drop zones as a big problem (not a big enough problem for the round table)

make the center drop zone bigger with three pads like CW phase one and after the 2nd drop all drop ships go to the center drop zone

or have the drop ships enter the combat area like a helicopter at an LZ

Russ was just being difficult

[50 50]

Monkey Lover, on 28 January 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

It's a nice feature I would take it but this isn't why people aren't playing cw.

Unfortunately the number of items that were discussed was pretty small and there are other items that we will want to look at for Faction Play to keep the mode evolving. It seems that the focus was to try and get a few key items looked at that should hopefully not take too long to implement. After all, it took abut 3 months for the last lot of changes to be implemented and there was actually quite a bit done.

It would have been nice to discuss some longer term objectives to put forward so there was a greater goal to work towards, but as it happened the focus was for more immediate changes. If we don't discuss some of the items, we don't generate that awareness for players or PGI.

So in regards to this specific topic, it seemed that from a development perspective there were hurdles that looked complex. From a player perspective, we weren't able to take that response and see ways around it or potential solutions that were not immediately obvious during the discussion. Hence, let's talk about it.

I see Faction Play as such a huge mode that it's something we need to just keep chipping away at to sculpt it into the mode we all want it to be. So if we consider selectable DropZones as one part of the puzzle, then once it is implemented and we have the features and structure to use it, it will continue to add value and depth as the mode evolves.

[Clownwarlord]

I have a solution for select-able drop zones.

First get rid of the leopard drop ship.

Second get a grounded overlord drop ship with 3 bays one for each lance designed.

Third at each drop zone place a grounded overlord.

Forth keep the walls around the drop ships, it helps protect against long range farming.

Now how does this solve the issue of farming and allow select-able drop site? Well by getting rid of the drop ship design you do not have to worry about multiple flight paths or lance mates using different leopard drop ships. Instead as a player you die and then you pick which overlord you want to arrive from. Your screen then should go to a count down to then a video of the overlord getting your mech out and then it walks out the bay (much like an aircraft carrier brings up a plane from inside to launch off the top deck but instead in this case it would walk out the bay assigned for that lance at that overlord). The overlord should be big enough that it can fit three different doors on it thus allowing each door be assigned to a lance. Thus allowing a lance to split its departure from multiple overlord sites.

The only issue I see with this is the overlord might be to big for our maps, in that case create bigger maps I like maps and so does the community.

Now another issue is close range farming ... well since you have no longer a mobile item that comes in shoots and then leaves you run into having the need for turrets at the emplacement. I would suggest short range weapons on the turrets like medium lasers. Then I would also make it that they can not be destroyed because otherwise a team would just destroy those turrets and then camp that area.

[naterist]

i think ecm towers over the spawns, with the turrets from escort, and place the ecm so it id'd everyone inside the walls, and turrets gaurd the entrances, combined with an ability to select from a mini-battlegrid map with selectable spots. if the spawn has over 4 people in it then id be ok with a que tod drop in that location.

short of a que, if PGI insists that each dropship be selected to go to a dropship, and the 4 people are dropped in, then i want to replace the list of the teams you currently see, place the minimap next to the mech select section, with the area were the teams used to be with an interactive dropship select and info screen, that lets you deal with the dropship issues.

[Zimm Kotare]

Clownwarlord, on 28 January 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

Second get a grounded overlord drop ship with 3 bays one for each lance designed.

Gotta say, I like the idea here a lot. Fleshing it out a little;

• Keep it simple, one Overlord per team at the centre of each team's current spawn area
  
• Keep it simple (ish), no need for turrets/ECM towers/walls, give the Overlord its attendant weaponry. Anyone who wants to get close to that is barmy & in for a bad time. Overlord will handily create its own Area of Denial out to the limit of its range by virtue of its God Aim, allowing people some room to stretch their legs & deploy.

I know it isn't actually simple in so, so many ways. For instance:

• Lot of work, modelling, coding, testing etc
  
• How do you combat people sitting within the AoD & not coming out?

For the latter point, some ideas:

• Overlord has a "recharge window", once all 12 mechs in a "wave" have deployed, give them a minute, then "gotta power down" for some reason I haven't come up with.
  
• Overlord has "deadzones" in its firing arcs, so on maps with appropriate canyons & channels, you could sneak under its radar (risky).
  
• LRMs don't care about no AoD. Might give them some credence.
  
• On objective modes, well. You don't get out & into it, you're gonna lose.

Of course, an Overlord does a nice job of being a focus for certain Objective modes. Could even have a new mode "defend the Overlord charging stations" or similar. Coming out of MW4, you have 3 sites which are critical to maintaining the Overlord, lose all three & your enemy can get a shot at taking down your Overlord, game over.

Like I said, I know it isn't simple & doesn't resolve all the issues, but something to consider perhaps.



As for the wider issue with spawns I see it as two fold:

• When the battle is met, you're miles from the fun (tough stick, regroup or reinforce, git gud, teamwork op etc etc I know, but...)
  
• As they're so spread out, its easy to surround one & farm your enemy in a weakened position

I'd suggest:

• Having 2 types of spawn: "Start/Fallback" & "Forward". The first is much what we have now, but brought closer together so that an enemy might face as many as three dropships & maybe more than a handful of mechs at any one time. The second is midway between map centre & the starting spawn points. This is a quick flyby or drop pod zone & has none of the security, but, gets you into combat faster. Maybe.
  
• As above, pull the dropships in tighter. No more "out on a wing".
  
• Perhaps drop sites have a "jamming effect". Screwing with the hud & "discombobulating" the pilot somewhat. Only about 600 range from centre/drop point, but enough that it discourages entry & puts room between dropping mechs & their attackers, enough to form up & prep yourself.

Maybe some or none of this is possible. But it seems to me like the first two points are mostly working with what we already have bar some work on changing flight plans. Which surely has to be the best way to approach the problem, rather than redesign things entirely (as much as I love the Overlord idea, it isn't a cure-all), try & use existing resources?

[gloowa]

The entire selectable dropzone discussion was overcomplicated. Russ thinks in terms of "Alpha lance dropship" while everyone else was thinking of "Alpha dropzone dropship".

Select your dropzone, get put in the queue for that dropzone, dropship takes 4 people from the queue for given dropzone, and drops them, leaves and takes another 4, arriving ~10 seconds after the previous wave. Just enough time for the previously dropped to move out of the way.

End of the story. Nothing complicated about this.

[Danjo San]

gloowa, on 28 January 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

The entire selectable dropzone discussion was overcomplicated. Russ thinks in terms of "Alpha lance dropship" while everyone else was thinking of "Alpha dropzone dropship".

Select your dropzone, get put in the queue for that dropzone, dropship takes 4 people from the queue for given dropzone, and drops them, leaves and takes another 4, arriving ~10 seconds after the previous wave. Just enough time for the previously dropped to move out of the way.

End of the story. Nothing complicated about this.

Because Lances and Dropships are coded to be bound entities. You are in slot 1 in alpha lance you are always in the respective slot facing the same direction when you drop.
All three dropships run in the same cycles. This is designed this way to make it possible, if the entire enemy team happens to get killed and redrop at the same time all 12 players will drop in at the same time. Long Tom has proven this rare case scenario.
If you had all killed at the same time and all selected Alpha dropship, your logic, only four could possibly come in at the same time the others would have to wait out the entire cycle. 30sec for the second, 60 for the third. Thats a long time to wait. And its not only the players waiting to redrop its the team waiting to regroup... If 4 players are waiting and the enemy realizes that they have time until all 8 are there, what do you believe will happen. Invasion on grim Portico for instance it makes no sense but lets assume this scenario takes place... Wouldn't it be so much easier to farm waves of 4 every thirty seconds rather than having 12 at the same time redeploy?
Another problem with the "Dropzone-Dropship Selection" rather than "Lance Dropship Destination" is players disconnecting.
It has been the case that instable internet connections, random bugs, hardware issues or rage cause players to dc at times. When you dc you stand around at spawn. Players are assigned to your slot and drop on your head, causing damage to you and damage to themselves. Of course this is minor but dropping a fresh mech on a fresh mech is dumb. Lets say you are not even dc... You are active but have to be afk for 30 seconds. The instant you return a mech drops on your head. Currently you have this bug where you drop through the map then when you redrop your legs are damaged at times... Nice to arrive on the battlefield damaged huh?
End of story.

[gloowa]

Danjo San, on 29 January 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Because Lances and Dropships are coded to be bound entities. You are in slot 1 in alpha lance you are always in the respective slot facing the same direction when you drop.

Yes, and? I make much bigger changes in software code on a daily basis in work.

Danjo San, on 29 January 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

All three dropships run in the same cycles. This is designed this way to make it possible, if the entire enemy team happens to get killed and redrop at the same time all 12 players will drop in at the same time. Long Tom has proven this rare case scenario.
If you had all killed at the same time and all selected Alpha dropship, your logic, only four could possibly come in at the same time the others would have to wait out the entire cycle. 30sec for the second, 60 for the third. Thats a long time to wait. And its not only the players waiting to redrop its the team waiting to regroup... If 4 players are waiting and the enemy realizes that they have time until all 8 are there, what do you believe will happen. Invasion on grim Portico for instance it makes no sense but lets assume this scenario takes place... Wouldn't it be so much easier to farm waves of 4 every thirty seconds rather than having 12 at the same time redeploy?

You assume it actually takes 30seconds for the dropship to fly in, drop and fly out. That is not the case. 30s is just the respawn timer. Entire process is maybe 10~15 seconds, and can be sped up by making dropship leave immediatly after releasing the mechs. Or having additional instances/clones of the dropship fly in as the previous one is flying out. And the entire point of this change is to have the ability to spawn AWAY from the enemy, not right on top of him. Also, if you think that it makes any difference if all 12 mechs spawn at the same time on, say, Forest Colony, think again. It takes ~40 seconds to reach alpha dropzone from bravo dropzone and another ~40 to reach charlie. Even if the dropship cycle would take 30s it would be faster to respawn there than go ther by foot.

Danjo San, on 29 January 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Another problem with the "Dropzone-Dropship Selection" rather than "Lance Dropship Destination" is players disconnecting.
It has been the case that instable internet connections, random bugs, hardware issues or rage cause players to dc at times. When you dc you stand around at spawn. Players are assigned to your slot and drop on your head, causing damage to you and damage to themselves. Of course this is minor but dropping a fresh mech on a fresh mech is dumb. Lets say you are not even dc... You are active but have to be afk for 30 seconds. The instant you return a mech drops on your head. Currently you have this bug where you drop through the map then when you redrop your legs are damaged at times... Nice to arrive on the battlefield damaged huh?
End of story.

Mechs that drop from the dropships are immune to fall damage (but not weapon damage) until they land on the ground. It has been that way since the very beginning. So at worst you gonna fall on other mech, do the usual rubberbanding and land on the ground a second later. And damage taken "underground" is clearly a bug and has to be fixed regardless of what they do with dropships.

Don't look for problems where there are none.

[Colonel ONeill]

Actually the question should be:

Why have Dropships at all, if they seem to be a bad solution?

[Sixpack]

Colonel ONeill, on 29 January 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Actually the question should be:

Why have Dropships at all, if they seem to be a bad solution?

We have dropships due to the old promo video where the Atlas got dropped in to the battle via Dropship. Everybody wanted that. That is why we got dropship deployments.

[Colonel ONeill]

Sixpack, on 29 January 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

We have dropships due to the old promo video where the Atlas got dropped in to the battle via Dropship. Everybody wanted that. That is why we got dropship deployments.

THAT is a really good reason. It is close to the reason for day/night cycle and all the trees.

Hold Locks

[Danjo San]

gloowa, on 29 January 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yes, and? I make much bigger changes in software code on a daily basis in work.

You assume it actually takes 30seconds for the dropship to fly in, drop and fly out. That is not the case. 30s is just the respawn timer. Entire process is maybe 10~15 seconds, and can be sped up by making dropship leave immediatly after releasing the mechs.

Don't look for problems where there are none.

Entire process is 30 seconds, Dropships depart in a 30 second cycle. The cycle itself may only have the dropship on the battlefield for 10-15 seconds as you say... but the entire process is run on a 30 cycle.
[Depart,Drop,Exit,Refill][Depart,Drop,Exit,Refill][Depart,Drop,Exit,Refill] No matter from what point of a cycle you begin to count to get to the exact same point on the cycle takes the exact same amount of time. For instance [Depart,Drop,Exit,Refill] takes 30 seconds so does [Drop,Exit,Refill,Depart] so does [Exit,Refill,Depart,Drop] so does [Refill,Depart,Drop,Exit]
Thats basic Code... the definition of a cycle.
12 entities waiting to be delivered at the same time by a cycle that processes in groups of four. It takes 3 cycles to complete the entire process. each cycle takes 30 seconds to complete... so it takes 90 seconds for the last cycle to be completed.

So what you really want to reduce is the time it takes to Refill, okay fair enough, reduce that. speed it up, even when reducing the hover time you can speed that up. that can be done. sure, but it will still run in cycles. The question is how fast can you speed it up without having to sacrifice usability. Selecting Dropship, selecting Mech.

Now, following your proposal, each Dropship stays at it's fixed Drop location, the only difference being that players select their preferred drop location. Say If you're in Alpha Lance and you'll be delivered by default to Alpha Drop, then you choose Bravo Drop on wave two, do you:
a} revert to default drop on wave three
b} change the default drop to bravo
c} switch default drop with a player from bravo lance (changing his default to alpha)

if you now consider you sped up the <entire> cycle to 10-15 seconds, say, you pop into a valid cycle that lets you departs you at half of the remaining time or less, how well can your decision be planned? Do you have enough time to check a minimap to see the spawns, get feedback from your drop commander, and choose a mech to fit the situation? Might be a bit tight.
Obviously, you play FP so you know that not every time you have the full 30 seconds to choose your mech, sometimes it's way beyond half. Sometimes it screws up and cycles twice, but that's a different bug

So do you select first and then start the 10-15sec cycle, or do you expect all to do that the within the short timeframe... or maybe 30 seconds is not that bad after all? Maybe 22.5 seconds is better, obviously, you need some kinda balance between speed and usability.
Now there is still the issue with the leopard dropships capacity do you:
a} introduce dropships with larger capacity -> more slots, new dropship class, new assets = more than just simple code change
b} make you wait for the next cycle if there is no empty slot on the leopard = perhaps longer redrop times
c} realize that it may just make more sense that Dropships and Lances are bound entities and it may be better to add more drop locations, like Russ explained in the roundtable and all issues bound to that

Or how about this crazy Idea: If you see that Dropzone Alpha is being camped, why not take company command and move the players from Alpha lance to another lance, meaning they would redrop on a different spawn. This has been done on maps like Vitric Forge before when in the former mode Counter Attack, the attackers had taken out Omega, and were still behind on kills. The defenders changed their lance before ejecting to spawn in the dropzone that is only accessible with jump jets and waited for the enemy to come in and find them, and only be able to get close enough to kill them if they had jump jets... Try it out if you like, see if it still works, drop into a match and before you eject change your droplocation manually by switching lances.

[Colonel ONeill]

Danjo San, on 29 January 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

Or how about this crazy Idea: If you see that Dropzone Alpha is being camped, why not take company command and move the players from Alpha lance to another lance, meaning they would redrop on a different spawn. This has been done on maps like Vitric Forge before when in the former mode Counter Attack, the attackers had taken out Omega, and were still behind on kills.

Did not read the full wall of text, but this sticked out.
Taking command is often already done by a pug or bug.
And while you are in the battle you wanna rearrange the lances? And first figure out who needs to be moved and so on?

Just not possible. Micro management is a no-no in this game.

[mesmer]

Why aren't we asking for a minimum skill level for FW? A tutorial for terribad pugs?

Spawn camping is a problem like 5% of the matches. If you don't like getting camped, deploy some meta builds and join a unit. Ezpz.

[50 50]

I don't want to get rid of the dropships. After all, we did ask and ask to get them introduced so we had a cool way to deploy into battle that gave us a bit of immersion instead of just starting up at the dropzones.
However, I would suggest that by trying to get them to deviate to another dropzone may not be necessary.

As they are, it's like having those WW2 landing craft that pull up onto the beach and unload the troops. The troops are there to setup the beachhead and establish a base they can then push forward from. The base becomes the strong point and the landing craft are not used again unless that forward point cannot be established.

So with the Leopards, our first waves sweep in and get dropped off as they do in Quick Play.
It's then our task to move forward and get control of a point which gives us another respawn option. This location can be one single base, give it the walls and some turrets but it has 12 bays that we can deploy from. We then individually or as a lance can select either to drop in via the Alpha Dropship to Alpha Dropzone, or, deploy from Alpha Hangerbay at the base.
Perhaps it could be 3 different bases spread out so if one does get overrun, we have 2 other bases, plus our designated lance dropship/dropzone.
The only problem we start to get into is the amount of space things start to take up. Some of the maps will be able to cater for forward bases and we can always move the dropzones for the dropships further back. but it may require reviewing the maps a bit and making a few adjustments.

On some of the smaller maps where we don't currently use the drop ships, then using the bases would be the better option. We could all start at one location, then move out to capture others. Need to also be able to lose these locations to the enemy as well.

Having these additional locations does shake up the game modes a bit, but in addition to being a way to alleviate spawn camping it also creates points on the map that gives us objectives and locations to fight back and forth over beyond the objective of the mode. Probably particularly good for Skirmish, but it would be quite interesting in the other modes as well.

I think that is not only going to help solos and small groups have a bit more of a fighting chance but it will also deepen the options for the big groups and really give them something to sink their tactical teeth into. Might need to expand the timer, but that is not a big concern.

So maybe we don't mess around with the way the dropships function or how that works when we swap lances with another player to use a different dropship. If we progress the ability to deploy forward from the dropships, we don't need to swap lances.... and maybe we shouldn't be able to once we are deployed anyway. Adding a bit of functionality about when and where to deploy at both an individual level and then a lance command level would definitely be a good thing.

Perfect option to add to the battlegrid and have that display along with our drop decks. I think this would be a really exciting change to have in the game and would give us a bit of an ability to plan tactically before we drop. That would be amazing.

********************************************************************************************************************************

Bringing in one of the large dropships like the Union or Overlord I think would be just amazing to see in game for the pure 'Wow' factor, however I would like to suggest that we can interact with it more. Enemies should be able to shoot at the dropship to force it to take off again otherwise it does represent a massive defensive asset to the team that has it.

I would also like to suggest that these dropships get used when people group up in large enough numbers.
That is, as a solo or up to a group of 4 (1 lance) we drop in the Leopard.
A group of 8 to 11 the Union + 1 Leopard.
A group of 12 the Overlord.
Perhaps.
I am not sure there would be too much work to introduce them either. The model from MW5 could probably be used, behind the scenes I don't know if there is much difference in 3d models between different game engines. The rest of it is the code and these things just go straight up and down to land which should be a bit easier.
Someone more in the know could clarify that point and it's something to ponder over in any case.

mesmer7, on 29 January 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

Why aren't we asking for a minimum skill level for FW? A tutorial for terribad pugs?

Spawn camping is a problem like 5% of the matches. If you don't like getting camped, deploy some meta builds and join a unit. Ezpz.

Different forum topic.
That was certainly raised in a few places but not debating it here. (not disagreeing with it either)

[justcallme A S H]

gloowa, on 29 January 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yes, and? I make much bigger changes in software code on a daily basis in work.

Don't look for problems where there are none.

Agreed, it is not a rocket science level of change. Russ didn't understand what people meant is all. Derek just needed to ask some clarification questions, job done.

It still won't stop spawn camping though. people thinking this is the case are just deluded. 6 mech per a DZ - successful camp achievement unlocked. No PUGlet team is going to communicate well enough to work out which DZ to NOT deploy to.


lol. Remember this is the guy that's been blaming large units for the problems in FP when the Top 20 FP units, the past 12 months, 50% of them have had less than 40 members.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 January 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[Danjo San]

Colonel ONeill, on 29 January 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Did not read the full wall of text, but this sticked out.
Taking command is often already done by a pug or bug.
And while you are in the battle you wanna rearrange the lances? And first figure out who needs to be moved and so on?

Just not possible. Micro management is a no-no in this game.

Was being sarcastic... Tbh I dont even feel there is any need to add the feature of changing drops dynamically... I run across spawn camps probably 1 out of 10 matches. So it's not on my priority list.

[Danjo San]

justcallme A S H, on 29 January 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

lol. Remember this is the guy that's been blaming large units for the problems in FP when the Top 20 FP units, the past 12 months, 50% of them have had less than 40 members.

Yep, thats me! What that has to do with cycles and Dropships fails me though.
A Coder should be able to understand cycles, loops and stuff... If you break up cycles you might end up messing up the entire system running smoothly. I was showing just that...
I almost forgot that you believe I barely play and so have no idea what I am talking about. So nevermind me... Move on