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Metalicious Mechs For The Is (Now With Poll)

BattleMechs Balance Gameplay

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#141 chucklesMuch

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 07:23 PM

View PostTheArisen, on 04 February 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Current happenings in the poll.

Out of 42 votes thus far...
Lights: Osiris winning by a mile with 23
Mediums: Lynx just holding onto it's lead with 14
Heavies: Flashman continues to hold off the Falconer with 10
Assaults: The Fafnir & Sagittarius are tied at 12 with the Nightstar trailing in 3rd


I like the direction this is going... except for the heavy class... either; another IS laser boat or mostly laser boat? unless I'm missing something?... I don't think IS especially need another laser boat...

#142 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 08:01 PM

View PostchucklesMuch, on 05 February 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:


I like the direction this is going... except for the heavy class... either; another IS laser boat or mostly laser boat? unless I'm missing something?... I don't think IS especially need another laser boat...


Well, either a laser boat or an energy/ballistic mix with JJs...

#143 SIN Maruzen

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 09:38 PM

Forget all mechs. I still want Battle Armor.



Dammit

#144 TheArisen

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 09:47 PM

View PostchucklesMuch, on 05 February 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:


I like the direction this is going... except for the heavy class... either; another IS laser boat or mostly laser boat? unless I'm missing something?... I don't think IS especially need another laser boat...


If we examine each mech the 4 best choices for heavy are (in no particular order) The Toyama, Dragon Fire, Falconer and Onslaught because the others are the T2 options.

#145 FLG 01

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 10:43 PM

Toyama, Dragon Fire, Falconer - I'd take them all.

However I feel the Dragoon should be on the list, if we are talking performance only.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragoon
It has good hardpoints, good hardpoint layout, JJ, ECM, super-high engine cap on one variant. The Dragoon can mount dual Gauss in the arms while being jump capable and protected by ECM. It is also a short and boxy design, doing well in volumetric scaling. The hitboxes seem less than optimal though...

And I do think that dual gauss on a heavy IS Mech is important. ECM and JJ as a bonus are nice too. Could you think of any other heavy Mech to mount dual gauss in the arms and be good? Bandersnatch? Hammerhands?

Edited by FLG 01, 06 February 2017 - 10:45 PM.


#146 El Bandito

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 10:52 PM

View PostchucklesMuch, on 05 February 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

I like the direction this is going... except for the heavy class... either; another IS laser boat or mostly laser boat? unless I'm missing something?... I don't think IS especially need another laser boat...


I'd be completely fine if PGI replaced all Black Knights with the Flashman. I love the 75 ton light bulb. It will have higher arm hardpoints than the BK, too.

#147 chucklesMuch

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:26 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 06 February 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:


I'd be completely fine if PGI replaced all Black Knights with the Flashman. I love the 75 ton light bulb. It will have higher arm hardpoints than the BK, too.


Okay. Cool that it's got better arm hardpoints than a BK ...and I'd happily swap my Bks for heavies with better hardpoints... without being terribly excited about swapping low pew pew for higher pew pew.. would a light bulb be any better than a grasshopper?

Edited by chucklesMuch, 07 February 2017 - 12:28 AM.


#148 El Bandito

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 12:54 AM

View PostchucklesMuch, on 07 February 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

Okay. Cool that it's got better arm hardpoints than a BK ...and I'd happily swap my Bks for heavies with better hardpoints... without being terribly excited about swapping low pew pew for higher pew pew.. would a light bulb be any better than a grasshopper?


As with anything IS, it depends on quirks. The day top IS mechs can compete without quirks, is the day I would be finally satisfied with cross faction balance.

#149 TheArisen

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 01:06 AM

View PostFLG 01, on 06 February 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

Toyama, Dragon Fire, Falconer - I'd take them all.

However I feel the Dragoon should be on the list, if we are talking performance only.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragoon
It has good hardpoints, good hardpoint layout, JJ, ECM, super-high engine cap on one variant. The Dragoon can mount dual Gauss in the arms while being jump capable and protected by ECM. It is also a short and boxy design, doing well in volumetric scaling. The hitboxes seem less than optimal though...

And I do think that dual gauss on a heavy IS Mech is important. ECM and JJ as a bonus are nice too. Could you think of any other heavy Mech to mount dual gauss in the arms and be good? Bandersnatch? Hammerhands?


The Dragoon would almost certanly make it but for the fact it is 100% extinct and Pgi doesn't do extinct chassis.

The Onslaught would fill the second thing. We considered the Bsnatch but it's too dependent on futurue tech like MRMs.

I believe the Dragon Fire can mount dual gauss in it's arms with ECM as well.

Edited by TheArisen, 08 February 2017 - 10:37 AM.


#150 TheArisen

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 09:59 AM

Some light reading on what makes a mech strong.

"Ideal geometry possesses a narrow torso from any angle, so the distance you have to twist to redirect damage is small and so that torso sections are difficult to isolate. There is an emphasis on frontal profile over the sides. The horizontal cross-section through the torso should be cylindrical (i.e. NTG, BK) or cruciform (i.e. RFL). Cruciform has the advantage of being able to block sides using the center provided the sides are not overly wide and/or the nose has sufficient length, without necessarily exposing the opposite side. Cylindrical has to expose one side to block the other, so unlike cruciform it must always be in motion (not as good at actual shielding).

You want shield arms, for obvious reasons. Arms that cover the entire side are best, and if they can also cover the CT given enough angle, that's fantastic.

Legs should be mounted as close to the arm socket as possible, so that it is difficult to get full damage into the ST from the side once the arm is gone.

The cockpit should be mounted at or near the top of the 'Mech so there is no material to expose before you can actually see potential hostiles. Weapons should be mounted at or near the same level as the cockpit for the same reason.

For IS energy boats, you want most of your firepower in the torsos and you need one arm you can strip completely. IMHO, I think stacking all of your Large-class lasers (assuming B&B build, not ER LL boat) in one side is horrible and that you should always split them up lets you get them all crit at once and, IMHO, the ideal layout for an IS laser boat would be [2xE LT + 1xE CT + 1xE H + 2xE RT + 3xE RA] since that spreads the LLs out across all three torso parts, allows maximum DHS into the torsos and the good arm, and gives you a bump to 57/58 damage. Lower Arm Actuator, we don't need but I don't think it hurts too much given that we're out of slots with 19x DHS on a 350 engine.

For pure IS ballistics, you again want most of your firepower in the torsos. I don't think there's necessarily one single ideal for this, since whether or not you want to use Gauss is going to play a big role, but I'd say that [2xB LT + 2xB RT + 2xB RA] would cover the vast majority of combinations you want to try. That lets you do quadruple UAC/5 with an XL, stripping an arm for tonnage. It lets you run 6x AC/5 with an XL, too, or 3x UAC/5 + 2x AC/5, or 3x AC/10. When/if we get Light ACs, hard-point count starts mattering more for ballistics because we'll have the weight for more.

For IS Energy/Ballistic combo builds, the ideal layout is something like [2xE RT + 1xB RA] to get 2xPPC + 1xGauss in with an isXL. Also good is [1xB & 1xE LT + 1xB & 1xE LT]; that's PPC-dakka. For laser-Gauss, just replace the arm on the ideal IS energy boat with 1xB and that's about as good as it gets.

Ideal IS missile layout is pretty much identical to the ideal pure ballistic layout if you have six racks, for slot reasons. Better, though, would be four racks with between six and eight energy weapons, arranged [2xE LA + 2xM LT + 2xE CT + 2xM RT + 2xE RA]. Head and feet positions for ammo, sides for JJs and DHS. That's going to give you something worthy to fight a brawl TBR."
- Yeonne Greene


#151 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 10:06 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 07 February 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:


As with anything IS, it depends on quirks. The day top IS mechs can compete without quirks, is the day I would be finally satisfied with cross faction balance.


I think there are some that could come awfully close... like the Sagittaire.

#152 Valdarion Silarius

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 10:18 AM

Not really a big fan of this list, especially the limited 3 choices of lights. But here are my votes.

- Osiris

- Starslayer

- Toyama

- Fafnir

#153 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 10:27 AM

View PostArnold The Governator, on 08 February 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

especially the limited 3 choices of lights.

That's because there aren't really any future lights that do anything special, even the ones listed aren't really expected to be better than what we have/will have.

#154 TheArisen

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 10:35 AM

View PostArnold The Governator, on 08 February 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Not really a big fan of this list, especially the limited 3 choices of lights. But here are my votes.

- Osiris

- Starslayer

- Toyama

- Fafnir


We tried man but lights are just about maxed out. Im not sure there's any IS light that can matchup with the Cheetah. We'll see how the Javelin turns out but it seems like lights aren't going to get any better. Remember, this list is about strong mechs not any and every mech that could possibly be released.

Edited by TheArisen, 08 February 2017 - 03:45 PM.


#155 TheArisen

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 03:53 PM

The Starslayer has passed the Lynx in the medium bracket. I was looking at it's artwork and I had a concern that it might have Hunchback sydrome or in other words an extra large gun mount that's easily focused.
Posted Image

#156 Y E O N N E

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 04:39 PM

It does have Hunchie Syndrome, but it also has Jump Jets and tight convergence. And a high engine cap. It'll be pretty good.

#157 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 04:59 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 08 February 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

It does have Hunchie Syndrome, but it also has Jump Jets and tight convergence. And a high engine cap. It'll be pretty good.

This, technically the SHD-2K kinda has Hunchie syndrome but still gets by for the above reasons.

#158 Valdarion Silarius

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 05:12 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

That's because there aren't really any future lights that do anything special, even the ones listed aren't really expected to be better than what we have/will have.


*distant sounds of clanners pleading for the Locust IIC and Firemoth*

And yes I agree about the IS light mechs. I think PGI should give new IS lights a break for awhile.

#159 Y E O N N E

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 05:53 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 08 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

This, technically the SHD-2K kinda has Hunchie syndrome but still gets by for the above reasons.


Now that you mention it, the presence of the SHD-2K makes a good incentive to not vote for the Starslayer. The thing we want to do with the latter can technically already be done just as well by the former, whereas the Lynx is doing something no other IS Medium can do.

View PostArnold The Governator, on 08 February 2017 - 05:12 PM, said:


*distant sounds of clanners pleading for the Locust IIC and Firemoth*

And yes I agree about the IS light mechs. I think PGI should give new IS lights a break for awhile.


Eh, even the Firemoth is kinda just doing what a Locust does, and not really any better.

Locust IIC looks to be major power-creep, but I think it's going to end up as a slug compared to the IS Locust to offset all that firepower, and it doesn't have the armor or hit-boxes to hang like an ACH.

#160 TheArisen

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Posted 08 February 2017 - 11:36 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 08 February 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:


Now that you mention it, the presence of the SHD-2K makes a good incentive to not vote for the Starslayer. The thing we want to do with the latter can technically already be done just as well by the former, whereas the Lynx is doing something no other IS Medium can do.



Eh, even the Firemoth is kinda just doing what a Locust does, and not really any better.

Locust IIC looks to be major power-creep, but I think it's going to end up as a slug compared to the IS Locust to offset all that firepower, and it doesn't have the armor or hit-boxes to hang like an ACH.


Indeed, the only difference between the SSlayer and Shad2K is the SSlayer has more energy HPs and weighs 5 tons less. However like the Flashman I think people might be voting for it because it was the mech that lost to the Crab awhile back. Basically people have gotten attached to it.





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